Why must people hate Islam?

[shichimenshyo]

Sorry, if theists can interpret whatever they want, do whatever they want and change their beliefs to whatever they want, then they don't follow a religion, they simply follow whatever they want. Do you get that?

So, what does their god have to say about them changing gods word? Does that even remotely have any relevance to you?

Okay, let me be clear as I can here since you seem to be missing my point entirely...Someone who follows a religion has chosen to follow that religion, they chose to believe in that particular set of ideals. so they already have effectively chosen to believe what they want, and if they want to they can choose to subscribe to another set of ideals that meets there changing viewpoints on the world. So, why in effect can a group of peoples ideals not change to meet the needs of a world constantly changing?

Bullshit! What ideals are helpful to the community?

If you cant look at something objectively then what is the purpose of arguing at all? You obviously aren't learning anything from this discussion you are content with withdrawing yourself to your little zone of comfort and judging and persecuting others without ever taking into account their situations or position. What good is an argument if you already know your right?

omplete nonsense. The world is ruled by theism, hence the world is devoid of purpose and comfort. Failed logic there.

No, what you have presented here is not a valid argument just a blithering statement by a scared child lashing out at a perceived enemy.

But, they are, that is the entire point of religion.

Points can change...how dense can you be?

It is the theists themselves that make that evident.

Yet another statement from you without any real explanation or rational thought behind it. Its circular reasoning and it gets you nowhere. Theists are not a singular unified presence, just as Asians and blacks are not. Your prejudice becomes more apparent with every post, as does the futility of arguing with someone incapable of thinking without using faulty generalizations.

eligion IS everywhere in the world, do you see the same hypocrisy with science? You are only agreeing with me here.

Ideological flaws are not only evident in religion, that was my point..which you again missed entirely.

Duh.

Obviously you have now chosen to disregard the standard adult method of discussion in favor of a more grade school approach...how telling.

Duh.

Case and point.

 

[(Q)]

Okay, let me be clear as I can here since you seem to be missing my point entirely...Someone who follows a religion has chosen to follow that religion, they chose to believe in that particular set of ideals.

Most have been indoctrinated to believe in their religions doctrines, they never made a choice to do so. The choice was already made for them by their parents.

so they already have effectively chosen to believe what they want, and if they want to they can choose to subscribe to another set of ideals that meets there changing viewpoints on the world.

Sorry, but you can't do that with religious doctrine. Gods word is final.

So, why in effect can a group of peoples ideals not change to meet the needs of a world constantly changing?

Religious doctrines don't allow changes to gods word to suit peoples changing ideals. I get your point, but you still seem to be missing the point about religion.

What good is an argument if you already know your right?

You're clearly wrong, you are learning nothing.

No, what you have presented here is not a valid argument just a blithering statement by a scared child lashing out at a perceived enemy.

Ah, so I point out the blatant flaw in your statement and you react thusly.

Points can change...how dense can you be?

Religious doctrine can only be changed by a god, not it's followers... how dense can you be?

Ideological flaws are not only evident in religion

So what?

Obviously you have now chosen to disregard an the standard adult method of discussion in favor of a more grade school approach...how telling.

Grade school response to grade school rationale.

 

[shichimenshyo]

Most have been indoctrinated to believe in their religions doctrines, they never made a choice to do so. The choice was already made for them by their parents.

And so they then have no ability to think for themselves after that fact? Quit putting the burden of responsibility on the ideal rather than those who subscribe to it.

Sorry, but you can't do that with religious doctrine. Gods word is final.

Spoken like a true absolutist.

Religious doctrines don't allow changes to gods word to suit peoples changing ideals. I get your point, but you still seem to be missing the point about religion.

No, you seem to be missing the point people are only governed by the laws and rules that they create, and so they can effectively change those rules as time goes by and as they see fit. If religion ceased to be as absolutist as you claim what would be the harm in that. None, none at all.

You're clearly wrong, you are learning nothing.

I'll assume your making a joke here.

Ah, so I point out the blatant flaw in your statement and you react thusly.

You pointed out nothing you merely regurgitated a statement inserting theism and something negative, what did you point out?

Religious doctrine can only be changed by a god, not it's followers... how dense can you be?

And yet god has never come down and dictated to the masses what ideals he would like to see his followers adopt, and so people have written their interpretations of what those ideals should be, leaving them open for change and interpretation. Religious people aren't as stupid as you make them out to be.

Grade school response to grade school rationale.

Indeed.

 

[(Q)]

And so they then have no ability to think for themselves after that fact?

Correct. That is what indoctrination is all about.

Quit putting the burden of responsibility on the ideal rather than those who subscribe to it.

People who are indoctrinated don't subscribe to their doctrines, they simply have no choice.

Spoken like a true absolutist.

You are really starting to show your ignorance here. Clearly, you haven't the foggiest clue as to what doctrines are and what they profess. I am not an absolutist, that is what is written in doctrines, if you actually took the time to find out yourself rather than being a dumbass about it.

No, you seem to be missing the point people are only governed by the laws and rules that they create, and so they can effectively change those rules as time goes by and as they see fit. If religion ceased to be as absolutist as you claim what would be the harm in that. None, none at all.

Once again, read the doctrines so that you can begin to understand them.

I'll assume your making a joke here.

No joke, you are learning nothing.

You pointed out nothing you merely regurgitated a statement inserting theism and something negative, what did you point out?

Now, you're joking, right?

And yet god has never come down and dictated to the masses what ideals he would like to see his followers adopt

Yes, he has, read the doctrines. Prophets and Messengers have claimed to speak with god or his angels to exactly what people can and can't do.

and so people have written their interpretations of what those ideals should be, leaving them open for change and interpretation.

That's called hypocrisy. Learn the definition, please.

Religious people aren't as stupid as you make them out to be.

True, they are as stupid as they make themselves out to be.

 

[shichimenshyo]

I'll assume that out argument is concluded for the fact that you cant seem to keep yourself from reverting to insults and apparent self created delusions. For the record I was born Catholic and was actively engaged in church until I was about 15. At which point I...you see that I decided that it was not the place for me, so what of your supposed indoctrination stripping people of all choice and ability to think for themselves hmmmm? You are just as extreme and ignorant as the religions you preach..yes preach against, you are blinded by some deep rooted fear, and until you can view a situation from both sides you can never pose an argument that will hold any weight to anyone here that is a rational person. You sir are a real piece of work, and as much as I would love to continue having a mature and thought provoking conversation with you..I'm off work and have to go do other more pressing things.

Have yourself a magical day.
-Shichi

 

[iceaura]

.Someone who follows a religion has chosen to follow that religion, they chose to believe in that particular set of ideals.

Well no, not really. Not very often, anyway.

so they already have effectively chosen to believe what they want, and if they want to they can choose to subscribe to another set of ideals that meets there changing viewpoints on the world. - - -
- - - - And so they then have no ability to think for themselves after that fact?

Consider the position of the married and pregnant 18 year old in any fundamentalist (holy book and cleric governed) religious culture familiar to you. What are her actual opportunities for "thinking for herself"? Choosing to "subscribe to another set of ideals"?

So, why in effect can a group of peoples ideals not change to meet the needs of a world constantly changing?

One of the key benefits of religion is that it resists such change, providing the valuable property of consistency in the face of whim and weather - you don't want hard-won wisdom or best practices to be discarded in the face of ephemeral circumstances and temporary difficulties. But there is the down side to that durability - - -

and so people have written their interpretations of what those ideals should be, leaving them open for change and interpretation.

If religious theists believed that, in general, the world would be a much different place.

Religious people aren't as stupid as you make them out to be.

The process of "change and interpretation" seems to have involved a good deal of serious violence, failed often, and proceeded only over centuries of misery and murder, in the past. The role of intelligence in all of that is an interesting matter for debate. Savonarola was not a stupid man, nor (apparently) a corrupt or dishonest man.

If you regard Savonarola as evil, in what exactly did his evil lie? He seems to have been a sincere, intelligent, and dedicated believer in the doctrines of his religion. If you regard him as good, do you credit that religion and those doctrines for producing the manifestations of goodness his governance displayed?

 

[(Q)]

I'll assume that out argument is concluded for the fact that you cant seem to keep yourself from reverting to insults and apparent self created delusions.

Fair enough, I'll try not to do so.

For the record I was born Catholic and was actively engaged in church until I was about 15.

At 15, were you actively questioning your religion? Did the find that the concepts of gods, angels, hell and other supernatural claims didn't quite seem right?

At which point I...you see that I decided that it was not the place for me

I have always been open to hear any theist explain in their own words what it was exactly that caused them their epiphications. What reason did you leave the church?

so what of your supposed indoctrination stripping people of all choice and ability to think for themselves hmmmm?

Simple. They just started to think for themselves. Whatever triggered their dormant brain cells would be worth a fortune if you could bottle and sell it, but those reasons are probably too far and in between. The key element is that they seriously questioned their religion, probably for the first time.

We have several converts here on these forums, some have openly claimed it was their visits here that triggered them. Hence, it was the delivery of information and explanation to them that did it. Education, plain and simple.

Do people openly admit they've been indoctrinated into a cult by their parents? Not likely. But, for the most part, that's exactly what is occurring, heavily reaffirmed at the pulpit on Sunday by the local cult leaders.

You are just as extreme and ignorant as the religions you preach..yes preach against, you are blinded by some deep rooted fear, and until you can view a situation from both sides you can never pose an argument that will hold any weight to anyone here that is a rational person.

But, I have viewed both sides. Admittedly, the one side of belief in the supernatural is utterly incomprehensible to me. And, it is supposed to be these supernatural beings that we are to obey and worship without question. They have dictated our lives as subservient to them, it is our raison d'etre. And, there are many of them, all with varying dictations of what we are supposed to do.

How is any of that rational or can be viewed rational? How is an ideology like that not to be feared when it drives an entire planet's species? You tell me.

You sir are a real piece of work, and as much as I would love to continue having a mature and thought provoking conversation with you..I'm off work and have to go do other more pressing things.

Always be safe at work.

Have yourself a magical day.
-Shichi

Aren't I already?

 

[(Q)]

For the record I was born Catholic...

"The Bible not only contains the word of God; it is the word of God. The primary author is the Holy Ghost, or, as it is commonly expressed, the human authors wrote under the influence of Divine inspiration. It was declared by the Vatican Council (Sess. III, c. ii) that the sacred and canonical character of Scripture would not be sufficiently explained by saying that the books were composed by human diligence and then approved by the Church, or that they contained revelation without error. They are sacred and canonical "because, having been written by inspiration of the Holy Ghost, that have God for their author, and as such have been handed down to the Church".

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02543a.htm

"And you will most readily observe that the bulk of the Bible is the records of eye witnessess or ear witnesses, or people writing from hearsay. As such they are the "Words of a Historian""

Al-Qur'an, the Holy Book of God, also condemns this mulish mentality:

Deaf, dumb and blind, they will not return to the path. Quran 2:18

We already know that the Holy Qur'an is the infallible Word of God, revealed to our Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhummed Mustapha (Peace be upon him) word for word, through the agency of the Archangel Jibraeel, (known as Gabriel in English)"

http://www.jamaat.net/bible/Bible1-3.html




The former link is what is current Catholic Church beliefs and claims. The latter is the Islamic rebuttal supplanting with their own beliefs and claims.

Both completely agree that their doctrines are the word of their god.

So, I would ask you, who has the authority to change the word of god if not god himself through the same mediums as described above?

 

[GeoffP]

Sorry, if theists can interpret whatever they want, do whatever they want and change their beliefs to whatever they want, then they don't follow a religion, they simply follow whatever they want. Do you get that?

:bravo:

That's all fine and well; it's when those same theists want to impress (or oppress) their belief system onto you that the problem arises.

Well - for some people anyway.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

So what, some of them are extremists and terrorists!
Think about it. In midevil times Pope Urban (in my opinion one of the WORST MEN TO EVER WALK THE FACE OF THIS EARTH) ordered a violent attack on Jeursalem to take it from the Muslims. In the process they brutally killed muslims and jews in a successful attempt to take over Jeursalem. This is now called the crusades. This is the first crusade of the holy land. Many others preceded. Many Muslims died, many Jews died. Many were taken as slaves and now the Islamic people are portrayed as evil!?! WHAT THE FUCK! This is just plain ridiculus. Why hate them, Christians basically started terrorism in religion... What do you guys think?

I don't think it's just the islamic terrorists that people hate. It's the support that regular muslims give them and the lack of desire or ability to reign them in.

 

[flameofanor5]

So what, some of them are extremists and terrorists!
Think about it. In midevil times Pope Urban (in my opinion one of the WORST MEN TO EVER WALK THE FACE OF THIS EARTH) ordered a violent attack on Jeursalem to take it from the Muslims. In the process they brutally killed muslims and jews in a successful attempt to take over Jeursalem. This is now called the crusades. This is the first crusade of the holy land. Many others preceded. Many Muslims died, many Jews died. Many were taken as slaves and now the Islamic people are portrayed as evil!?! WHAT THE FUCK! This is just plain ridiculus. Why hate them, Christians basically started terrorism in religion... What do you guys think?

I always thought Muslim terrorists were extremists. Those who didn't truly follow the religion. But I don't know enough about Islam to say that with confidence. It's kind of like the Christians who bombed abortion clinics, in my opinion, they are not Christians, although, they call themselves Christians. Then again, since Christians believe that to be a true follower of Christ you must have the spirit of God in you. If you do not believe in the God of the Bible, there really is no difference between the extremists and those who truly follow the Bible. The same applies to Islam.

 

[mike47]

I always thought Muslim terrorists were extremists. Those who didn't truly follow the religion. But I don't know enough about Islam to say that with confidence. It's kind of like the Christians who bombed abortion clinics, in my opinion, they are not Christians, although, they call themselves Christians. Then again, since Christians believe that to be a true follower of Christ you must have the spirit of God in you. If you do not believe in the God of the Bible, there really is no difference between the extremists and those who truly follow the Bible. The same applies to Islam.

I think the Christians who bombed Iraq and Afghanistan are pure terrorists .

 

[flameofanor5]

I think the Christians who bombed Iraq and Afghanistan are pure terrorists .

I suppose you could view it that way. Then again, it's kind of like if someone punches you in the face and you hit them back. Someone bombing you does not necessarily justify you bombing them back. But it's a pretty good reason, we could sit here and do nothing.

 

[(Q)]

I think the Christians who bombed Iraq and Afghanistan are pure terrorists .

Maybe they were Muslims and not Christians.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Maybe they were Muslims and not Christians.

Allied soldiers of German and Japanese descent fought against the Axis in WWII. There is no reason to discount the possibility that Muslims serving in the US armed forces could be flying the bombers.

 

[shichimenshyo]

"The Bible not only contains the word of God; it is the word of God. The primary author is the Holy Ghost, or, as it is commonly expressed, the human authors wrote under the influence of Divine inspiration. It was declared by the Vatican Council (Sess. III, c. ii) that the sacred and canonical character of Scripture would not be sufficiently explained by saying that the books were composed by human diligence and then approved by the Church, or that they contained revelation without error. They are sacred and canonical "because, having been written by inspiration of the Holy Ghost, that have God for their author, and as such have been handed down to the Church".

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02543a.htm

"And you will most readily observe that the bulk of the Bible is the records of eye witnessess or ear witnesses, or people writing from hearsay. As such they are the "Words of a Historian""

Al-Qur'an, the Holy Book of God, also condemns this mulish mentality:

Deaf, dumb and blind, they will not return to the path. Quran 2:18

We already know that the Holy Qur'an is the infallible Word of God, revealed to our Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhummed Mustapha (Peace be upon him) word for word, through the agency of the Archangel Jibraeel, (known as Gabriel in English)"

http://www.jamaat.net/bible/Bible1-3.html




The former link is what is current Catholic Church beliefs and claims. The latter is the Islamic rebuttal supplanting with their own beliefs and claims.

Both completely agree that their doctrines are the word of their god.

So, I would ask you, who has the authority to change the word of god if not god himself through the same mediums as described above?

Well obviously the changes are being made with or without gods approval. Who can prove that those making the changes to the church did not themselves have a line of communication with god? Is god the all knowing all seeing being creator of the heavens and earth not allowed to change his mind? If he does change his mind who is to say that he cant dictate it to individuals who then see the necessary for change and make those changes?

In Washington state alone there are 178 churches listed that accept same gender families and individuals to their places of worship.

Whose to say god isn't the one making these changes, and why would you assume he isn't. Isn't the idea of religion just a human delusion to you? What makes you think that a delusion cannot change?

 

[nirakar]

So what, some of them are extremists and terrorists!
Think about it. In midevil times Pope Urban (in my opinion one of the WORST MEN TO EVER WALK THE FACE OF THIS EARTH) ordered a violent attack on Jeursalem to take it from the Muslims. In the process they brutally killed muslims and jews in a successful attempt to take over Jeursalem. This is now called the crusades. This is the first crusade of the holy land. Many others preceded. Many Muslims died, many Jews died. Many were taken as slaves and now the Islamic people are portrayed as evil!?! WHAT THE FUCK! This is just plain ridiculus. Why hate them, Christians basically started terrorism in religion... What do you guys think?

A large proportion of any society are haters. Hating is what they do best. If you don't give them people to hate they will find people to hate on their own and you may not like who they chose.

So isn't it better for Machiavellians to become the leaders of the the hate so that they can direct the hate and use the haters for their own pragmatic purposes rather than letting the haters just go hating any old person and possibly get of of a control the way mobs do when they are led by irrational haters rather than by rational Machiavellians?

Some powerful interests have found that directing the hatred at Muslims suits there purposes.

In between hating Muslims and hating communists they tried giving the Haters drug cartels as a hate object and justification for anything and everything but it just was not working. Drug cartels just didn't seem scary enough to work as well as bogeymen the way Muslims, atheists, Jews, rich people, poor people, communists, and gay people can work as scary bogeymen.

Those are all really easy scape goats. It would be rather easy for someone with 100 billion dollars to spend to whip the haters up into a genocidal crazed fury against any of those groups.

 

[GeoffP]

Is that how the Saudis run it then?

 

[nirakar]

Yes the Saudis play that game so well that it enables the Royal family to grab so much oil wealth while the Saudi haters hate who they are directed to hate when they should probably be overthrowing the royal family.

The Anti-Muslims are not the only game in town.

 

[(Q)]

Well obviously the changes are being made with or without gods approval.

And, you see no problem with that?

Who can prove that those making the changes to the church did not themselves have a line of communication with god?

Can they prove they had a line of communication with a god?

Is god the all knowing all seeing being creator of the heavens and earth not allowed to change his mind?

I would suspect a god would not change his mind, that would demonstrate he is not what he is claimed to be and his words would become pointless if he does keep changing his mind. Is god not omnipotent?

If he does change his mind who is to say that he cant dictate it to individuals who then see the necessary for change and make those changes?

Sure he can. Where is the credibility in those changes if left to only one individual? What's worse is that any changes to "his word" would demonstrate fallibility on his part. He would know this and would want everyone to know those changes and why he changes "his words"

In Washington state alone there are 178 churches listed that accept same gender families and individuals to their places of worship.

Whose to say god isn't the one making these changes, and why would you assume he isn't. Isn't the idea of religion just a human delusion to you? What makes you think that a delusion cannot change?

It's a delusion to me, but not for the followers.

And, what I'm hearing from you is that god can make as many religions as he wants, all with different doctrines, all with the ability to change anything at anytime.

Gods word would be utterly pointless, then.