St. Paul's God

[§outh§tar]

It's easy enough to follow Paul's reasoning for yourself. He cites his sources, and explains his reasoning. If you don't follow, do some studying, but it doesn't help to call him a liar just to justify yourself.

The possibility that Paul was deceptive takes a little too much unwarranted imagination. It's only possible if you go beyond the evidence and insist that Paul wasn't a Jew, in other words, if you take him out of his context - see Paul in recent research.

And a lot of people forget that not everything in the NT was written by Paul.

The possibility that Joseph Smith was deceptive takes a little too much unwarranted imagination.

The possibility that Jim Jones was deceptive takes a little too much unwarranted imagination.

The possibility that Mohammed was deceptive takes a little too much unwarranted imagination.


Anyone can be telling the truth if taken in the "proper context"..

 

[c20H25N3o]

I could summon at least 3 members on here who have born witness to your belittling and ad hominem remarks.

You will do well to stop judging me and take your own advice.

Is God going to punish them arbitrarily even though they use the same excuse you are?

The word 'excuse' in this context is incitement. It seems that it is I who is on trial. I am defending my faith and picking holes in the prosections account of my alleged crime i.e. I am using an 'excuse' to be what I am or rather I find myself defending "My love of God" which at best seems like a position I should not be in at all and at worst seems like "the powers of hell"!
But as I have said many times "I am a prisoner of Christ". I cannot speak against my jailor since it is He that feeds me. My sentence is eternal life. There is no escape for me. You who stand on the other side of the prison doors poking me through the bars with sticks, are you suprised when I say "Look at my condition... Why do you not believe I am bound here?"

So summon your witnesses. Condemn me. I am already in prison.

peace

c20

 

[battig1370]

Jenyar: --- Are you saying that Saul/St.Paul was an apostle of JESUS and a Pharisee at the same time?

Peace be with you, Pau

 

[Medicine*Woman]

battig1370: Jenyar: --- Are you saying that Saul/St.Paul was an apostle of JESUS and a Pharisee at the same time?
*************
M*W: Paul claimed at different times (whenever it was convenient for him to change his story), that he was a Pharisee and at other times, he was a Saducee. Paul was the verbal chameleon whenever it suited his purpose, and this liar invented christianity! Again, I will repeat: Paul never knew Jesus. Jesus never knew Paul -- and from this non-association comes christianity! When will you people wake up?

 

[c20H25N3o]

battig1370: Jenyar: --- Are you saying that Saul/St.Paul was an apostle of JESUS and a Pharisee at the same time?
*************
M*W: Paul claimed at different times (whenever it was convenient for him to change his story), that he was a Pharisee and at other times, he was a Saducee. Paul was the verbal chameleon whenever it suited his purpose, and this liar invented christianity! Again, I will repeat: Paul never knew Jesus. Jesus never knew Paul -- and from this non-association comes christianity! When will you people wake up?

Paul was the verbal chameleon whenever it suited his purpose. Lol who is'nt!
God made the chameleon too.

peace

c20

 

[§outh§tar]

Is God going to punish them arbitrarily even though they use the same excuse you are?

The word 'excuse' in this context is incitement. It seems that it is I who is on trial. I am defending my faith and picking holes in the prosections account of my alleged crime i.e. I am using an 'excuse' to be what I am or rather I find myself defending "My love of God" which at best seems like a position I should not be in at all and at worst seems like "the powers of hell"!
But as I have said many times "I am a prisoner of Christ". I cannot speak against my jailor since it is He that feeds me. My sentence is eternal life. There is no escape for me. You who stand on the other side of the prison doors poking me through the bars with sticks, are you suprised when I say "Look at my condition... Why do you not believe I am bound here?"

So summon your witnesses. Condemn me. I am already in prison.

peace

c20

Give it a rest will you? Half of the time you go around scorning others and the other half you use it to be starry eyed and pretend you are a victim..

 

[c20H25N3o]

Give it a rest will you? Half of the time you go around scorning others and the other half you use it to be starry eyed and pretend you are a victim..

So if I attack ideas i am wrong and if I defend ideas i am wrong

Give it a rest will you m8 :bugeye:

 

[Jenyar]

Battig,
What do you think a Pharisee is?

M*W,
Paul never claimed he was a Sadducee.

He couldn't, because Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection after death. Hence: "I stand on trial because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead." (Acts 23:6)

Acts 23:8
(The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.)​

 

[§outh§tar]

So if I attack ideas i am wrong and if I defend ideas i am wrong

Give it a rest will you m8 :bugeye:

I didn't say anything about being argumentative.

I said your AD HOMINEM AND BELITTLING remarks.

Or can you not understand English?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Jenyar: M*W, Paul never claimed he was a Sadducee. He couldn't, because Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection after death. Hence: "I stand on trial because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead." (Acts 23:6)

Acts 23:8
(The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.)
*************
M*W: Then you don't know Paul. I suggest you read The Mythmaker: Paul and the invention of Christianity, by Hyam Maccoby:

"Paul was never a Pharisee rabbi, but was an adventurer of undistinguished background. He was attached to the Sadducees, as a police officer under the authority of the High Priest, before his conversion to belief in Jesus. His mastery of the kind of learning associated with the Pharisees was not great. He deliberately mis-represented his own biography in order to increase the effectiveness of his missionary activities."

"Jesus and his immediate followers were Pharisees. Jesus had no intention of founding a new religion. He regarded himself as the Messiah in the normal Jewish sense of the term, i.e. human leader who would restore the Jewish monarchy, drive out the Romas invaders, set up an independent Jewish state, and inaugurate an era of peace, justice and prosperity (known as 'the kingdom of God') for the whole world. Jesus believed himself to be the figure prophesied in the Hebrew Bible who would do all these things. He was not a militarist and did not build up an army to fight the Romans, since he believed that God would perform a great miracle to break the power o fRome. This miracle would take place on the Mount of Olives, as prophesied in the book of Zechariah. When this miracle did not occur, his mission had failed. He had no intention of being crucified in order to save mankind from eternal damnation by his sacrifice. He never regarded himself as a divine being, and would hav eregarded such an idea as pagan and idolatrous, an infringement of the first of the Ten Commandments."

Jenyar, it is quite obvious that you don't know much about the characters you worship. That makes you a fool. I suggest you do some reading at least on the Internet about Paul. Otherwise you are effectively misinformed.​

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Jenyar: M*W, Paul never claimed he was a Sadducee.

He couldn't, because Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection after death. Hence: "I stand on trial because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead." (Acts 23:6)
Acts 23:8

(The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.)
*************
M*W: Maybe the Sadducees were right. Have you ever diciphered that?

 

[c20H25N3o]

Paul appointed himself a disciple of Jesus Christ. Jesus never knew Paul. I reject the teachings of Paul, and Jesus may not have even existed, so there you go. Paul has historically been known to be a liar. He even admits it in the NT. I'm not guilty of anything in my own eyes, and I don't believe in the god of Jesus OR Paul. They were both wrong, and I don't believe any God they believed in to be true.

I would say Paul signed up to the The Word's teachings.
I would say Jesus very much knows Paul since God is a God of the living and not the dead.
Paul does say "I do not judge myself" but this is upon having revelation of The Word which was "Why do you not forgive thyself?" and "If your brother sins against you and repents then you should forgive him every time". I would say Paul was blessed by The Word which is the source of all life and speaks only in love for the beings it has created. The Word is the Way, the truth and the life and it is impossible to know the Father without it. Jesus is The Word made flesh.
You reject the teachings of Paul and say Jesus may not have existed but then go on in conviction to say "They were both wrong" - this is doublemindedness is it not?

peace

c20

 

[battig1370]

--- A Pharisees? In Matthew chapter 23, it describes the personalities of the Pharisees. Good reading.

It is written in Acts 23:6 that Saul cried out, "I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee.

A question to c20H25N3o and Jenyar, Can Saul/St.Paul be an apostle of JESUS and a Pharisee at the same time?

Peace be with you, Paul

 

[Jenyar]

Pharisee - A person who was of a sect of the Jewish religion that rigidly adhered to the Law of Moses. Paul was a Pharisee. He lived by the law of Moses his entire life and did not consider it to be in conflict with his Christian beliefs. However, he seemed to be constantly at odds with the Jewish faction within the Christian Church that wanted to impose the Mosaic Law upon the Gentiles in order for them also to be Christians. His position was that a Pharisee could also be a Christian, but one need not be a Pharisee to be a Christian. - Biblestudyinfo: key concepts​

 

[c20H25N3o]

How could Paul be a murderer and a Christian? Let alone a Pharisee and a Christian!
But he was both. He had still been a murderer before He accepted God's good grace and was therefore a murderer in this life. It is God's good wisdom to show you the reader, His good grace through the freedom that Paul experienced by becoming a prisoner in Christ Jesus which caused Paul to say "I am a Christian!"
It is by God's grace that we are saved, through Jesus Christ Our Lord. Paul's testimony is an incredibly important one to the Church because it is a story of God's anger, Paul's submission, God's mercy and Paul's exaltation of God Most High for His mercy through Jesus Christ our Lord.

peace

c20

 

[nirakar]

My guess: I think Paul was a fanatic when he was persecuting Christians and then was a fanatic when he was promoting Christ. I think he was always sincere but was always psychologically damaged. I think he really was filled with the holly spirit on the road to Damascus. I think the presence of the holy spirit in Paul made people believe his teaching.

Had Peter and Paul been more perfect Christianity might not have survived and the beautiful teachings of Christ would have been lost to humanity. Because of Paul Christianity was able to be an opium to the masses who wanted opium rather than the purer teachings of Jesus. Because of Paul Christianity was able to become something that politicians would use and promote for their own purposes. Because of these evil politicians using Christianity, the holy glorious teaching of Christ is available to all.

Paul was perfectly imperfect and the right guy for the job that he was given but his teachings are not perfect.

 

[c20H25N3o]

Paul was perfectly imperfect and the right guy for the job that he was given but his teachings are not perfect.

This statement is to twist the truth and to create dissention among Jesus and Paul! This is to suggest that the Word of God has failed in Paul which it of course cannot! This is to suggest that Paul continues to decieve through his teachings and if you say the teachings are not good i.e. imperfect then they must be of some enemy of man.
Please do not be deceived. Paul's teaching are the Word of God revealed. Nothing in Paul's teachings set Him against the Christ. The teachings are not even of Paul but when they are he says "Not God but I say ... and I say in all honesty." He then thanks God that God should consider him enough to give him (Paul) even his own person. This is humility and is a wonderful mystery that God would let go of the bike seat sometimes and let us ride without help. I am sure if Paul asked God fearfully "Are you still there God" as he rode freely without help, God may say "Of course I am Paul" even though God has really let go of the bike seat altogether. It was revelation of this that caused Paul to say "God says things that are that are not really". God's intentions of course are that Paul learns to ride the bike. When Paul wants to come to a stop he will of course realise that God was always walking two paces behind him and he will be filled with joy that he rode in a straight line unaided. Be born again! Jesus has made it possible for you. Believe in Him and be saved.

peace

c20

 

[SVRP]

"We might not know all the details, chronology, or psychology of what happened to Paul on the road to Damascus but we do know this: it radically affected every area of his life.
First, Paul's character was drastically transformed. The Encyclopaedia Britannica describes him before his conversion as an intolerant, bitter, persecuting, religious bigot - proud and temperamental. After his conversion he is pictured as patient, kind, enduring, and self-sacrificing. Kenneth Scott Latourette says: "What integrated Paul's life, however, and lifted this almost neurotic temperament out of obscurity into enduring influence was a profound and revolutionary religious experience."
Second, Paul's relationship with the followers of Jesus was transformed. "Now for several days he was with the disciples who were at Damascus" (Acts 9:19). And when Paul went to the apostles, he received the "right hand of fellowship."
Third, Paul's message was transformed. Though he still loved his Jewish heritage, he had changed from a bitter antagonist to a determined protagonist of the Christian faith. "Immediately he began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, saying, 'He is the Son of God' " (Acts 9:20). Paul's intellectual convictions had changed. His experience compelled him to acknowledge that Jesus was the Messiah, in direct conflict with the Pharisees' messianic ideas. His new conception of Christ meant a total revolution in his thought. Jacques Dupont acutely observes that after Paul "had passionately denied that a crucified man could be the Messiah, he came to grant that Jesus was indeed the Messiah, and, as a consequence, rethought all his messianic ideas."
Also he could now understand that Christ's death on the cross, which appeared to be a curse of God and a deplorable ending of someone's life, was actually God through Christ reconciling the world to Himself. Paul came to understand that through the crucifixion Christ became a curse for us (Galatians 3:13) and was "made…to be sin on our behalf" (2 Corinthians 5:21). Instead of a defeat, the death of Christ was a great victory, being capped by the resurrection. The cross was no longer a "stumbling block" but the essence of God's messianic redemption. Paul's missionary preaching can be summarized as "explaining and giving evidence that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead… 'This Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you is the Christ,' " he said (Acts 17:3).
Fourth, Paul's mission was transformed. He was changed from a Gentile-hater to a missionary to Gentiles. He was changed from a Jewish zealot to an evangelist to Gentiles. As a Jew and Pharisee, Paul looked down upon the despised Gentile as someone inferior to God's chosen people. The Damascus experience changed him into a dedicated apostle, with his life's mission aimed toward helping the Gentile. Paul saw in the Christ who appeared to him the Savior for all people. Paul went from being an orthodox Pharisee whose mission was to preserve strict Judaism to being a propagator of that new radical sect called Christianity which he had so violently opposed. There was such a change in him that "all those hearing him continued to be amazed, and were saying 'Is this not he who in Jerusalem destroyed those who called on this [Jesus'] name, and who had come here for the purpose of bringing them bound before the chief priests?' " (Acts 9:21).
Historian Philip Schaff states: "The conversion of Paul marks not only a turning-point in his personal history, but also an important epoch in the history of the apostolic church, and consequently in the history of mankind. It was the most fruitful event since the miracle of Pentecost, and secured the universal victory of Christianity." " (Quoted from “DID YOU HEAR WHAT HAPPENED TO SAUL” By Josh McDowell http://www.yfiles.com/saul.htm)

 

[nirakar]

This statement is to twist the truth and to create dissention among Jesus and Paul! This is to suggest that the Word of God has failed in Paul which it of course cannot! This is to suggest that Paul continues to decieve through his teachings and if you say the teachings are not good i.e. imperfect then they must be of some enemy of man.
Please do not be deceived. Paul's teaching are the Word of God revealed. Nothing in Paul's teachings set Him against the Christ. The teachings are not even of Paul but when they are he says "Not God but I say ... and I say in all honesty." He then thanks God that God should consider him enough to give him (Paul) even his own person. This is humility and is a wonderful mystery that God would let go of the bike seat sometimes and let us ride without help. I am sure if Paul asked God fearfully "Are you still there God" as he rode freely without help, God may say "Of course I am Paul" even though God has really let go of the bike seat altogether. It was revelation of this that caused Paul to say "God says things that are that are not really". God's intentions of course are that Paul learns to ride the bike. When Paul wants to come to a stop he will of course realise that God was always walking two paces behind him and he will be filled with joy that he rode in a straight line unaided. Be born again! Jesus has made it possible for you. Believe in Him and be saved.

peace

c20

I am not displeased with Paul and I think he did a good job. I do not think he was evil. I think Paul thought that he was being faithful to God and Jesus but I think Paul made Christianity into a religion in which people get saved by believing in Jesus rather than get saved by understanding and following Jesus. I think Paul made Christianity into a religion in which being saved is more important than loving God and neighbors. Perhaps my memory of Paul might be off.


I have had the privilege to meet two people who could leave you crying tears of joy after a accidental look in their eyes. After your mind comes back you can only wonder what happened. One of these people had a habit of writing bad articles for a local publication.

My conclusion after studying people with sweet powerful healing energy far beyond anything that might be called charisma is that the holy spirit only transforms the normal part of the mind by giving the ability to use beyond normal mind and by showing the normal mind a new set of experiences that it must incorporate into it's reality. The mystics say that the truth can not be spoken because it is far beyond and bigger than the capacity of human language. I believe that the speech of those filled with the holy spirit is still mostly a product of the mind that the people had before they were filled with the holy spirit. This is what I think accounts for Paul's speech having a different flavor from the quotes of Jesus.

Jesus made it clear to me that every law and teaching is for the purpose of loving God and our neighbors. Paul's teaching seems to be for the purpose of getting people to relate to Jesus in the way that Paul thinks we should relate to Jesus. From Paul I feel that mixed into his real profound love for Jesus is a hidden doubt that Paul is trying to vanquish with intensity. That is just the way I feel it and I trust the feeling.

Christ chose Judas to play a role. Was Judas perfect?

If you reject any piece of the bible as not being worthy of our reverence trust and obedience then do you not have to take personal responsibility to accept or reject each section of the bible based on your relationship with god and what god lets you understand? Do you believe that every paragraph in the old testament divinely inspired? Peter made a point to admit that he was not perfect when he denied he knew Christ three times. Do you think the synods councils bishops that shaped the Bible were perfect? There was disagreement as to what should be included in the Bible. Were the Popes perfect? When did the perfection stop?

 

[c20H25N3o]

I am not displeased with Paul and I think he did a good job. I do not think he was evil. I think Paul thought that he was being faithful to God and Jesus but I think Paul made Christianity into a religion in which people get saved by believing in Jesus rather than get saved by understanding and following Jesus. I think Paul made Christianity into a religion in which being saved is more important than loving God and neighbors. Perhaps my memory of Paul might be off.


I have had the privilege to meet two people who could leave you crying tears of joy after a accidental look in their eyes. After your mind comes back you can only wonder what happened. One of these people had a habit of writing bad articles for a local publication.

My conclusion after studying people with sweet powerful healing energy far beyond anything that might be called charisma is that the holy spirit only transforms the normal part of the mind by giving the ability to use beyond normal mind and by showing the normal mind a new set of experiences that it must incorporate into it's reality. The mystics say that the truth can not be spoken because it is far beyond and bigger than the capacity of human language. I believe that the speech of those filled with the holy spirit is still mostly a product of the mind that the people had before they were filled with the holy spirit. This is what I think accounts for Paul's speech having a different flavor from the quotes of Jesus.

Jesus made it clear to me that every law and teaching is for the purpose of loving God and our neighbors. Paul's teaching seems to be for the purpose of getting people to relate to Jesus in the way that Paul thinks we should relate to Jesus. From Paul I feel that mixed into his real profound love for Jesus is a hidden doubt that Paul is trying to vanquish with intensity. That is just the way I feel it and I trust the feeling.

Christ chose Judas to play a role. Was Judas perfect?

If you reject any piece of the bible as not being worthy of our reverence trust and obedience then do you not have to take personal responsibility to accept or reject each section of the bible based on your relationship with god and what god lets you understand? Do you believe that every paragraph in the old testament divinely inspired? Peter made a point to admit that he was not perfect when he denied he knew Christ three times. Do you think the synods councils bishops that shaped the Bible were perfect? There was disagreement as to what should be included in the Bible. Were the Popes perfect? When did the perfection stop?

All you need to remember is that you, Paul and Jesus are brothers. Paul became like the godless that the godless might be saved. Trust me the Word of God through Paul does not fail. Do not be deceived by those trying to cause dissention among brothers. They are false prophets preaching a twisted gospel to malign the work of the cross. They will receive what is coming to them. And I tell you this, Jesus is coming soon!

peace

c20