St. Paul's God

c20H25N3o said:
You are full of if's and wonders but no substance! I suggest you read Paul and then you may know that he preaches nothing but life in Christ Jesus.

If Pauls God is the false God! What rubbish!
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I am posing a question based on the previous discussion and giving a bit of my opinion according to the "assumption Paul's God is not the same God as Jesus's God". The question itself is neither for or against the topic. If you cannot discuss rationally, please just leave and don't attack others with rubbish.

David F. said:
I do think this is much of what happened, but I don't think the blame falls on Paul but on follower's of Paul who later corrupted his teachings, but through it all, the Word remains.
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What you said is that the religion is not dead but corrupted. To me, it means that the religion IS dead. The Word simply cannot be the Word if it is corrupted. That's why Jesus warned his followers about false prophets.

The question remains, which denomination is closest to the Jesus's Teaching. That also shows the issue that in any organized religion, different interpretations are introduced by different people (some may genuinely be inspired by some higher being; some just believe they are so; and some make it up.) which will eventually lead to division of the religion into different (sometimes radically) sects.
 
Melodicbard, when I said religion is corrupted, I did not say the Word (Bible) is corrupted - well maybe a little corrupted through translation but anyone can see the original if they care to. What is fascinating to me is that each denomination reads their own little portion of the bible but will rarely read the whole thing in context. It is those who dare to read the whole Word (or at least large parts of it), and believe what they read, who may try to un-corrupt their church and their religion (e.g. Martin Luther). Unfortunately, their followers usually set up yet another denomination so that over time, the Christian world seems to be filled with old denominations which are not that much better than the denomination they split from. Yet through it all, the Word remains, to be read and believed by yet another future generation who wants to purify their religion and return to the true teachings of Christ.
 
There is no point in arguing with those who renounce Paul. Paul was 'for' Jesus. If He was 'for' him, how could he be 'against him'. Those who reject Paul reject Jesus and those who reject Jesus reject Paul. If you reject Jesus and yet still call Paul's God a false God then you must believe that Jesus' Father is God and are doubly guilty therefore of rejecting a God you know to be true!
 
c20h25n3o
Your line of 'logical reasoning' in post #63 is ludicrously flawed. If one were to substitute the term X for the name Paul this becomes readily apparent. "X was 'for' Jesus. Those who reject X reject Jesus." All you need do is substitute the name of anyone who professes to be 'for' Jesus who you do not agree with, including my own, to see how ridiculous the line of 'reasoning' is.

ago2
 
Melodicbard
"The question remains, which denomination is closest to the Jesus's Teaching."
Up to 50 years ago I would say that Islam was closest, but apparrently they got jealous of the apostasy of modern Judaism and Christianity, and have been spectacularly successful at playing 'catch up'. Historical circumstances has seemed to make taking the advise Jesus gives in Matthew 23:7-10 the only real alternative. If you are a real 'seeker' it is probably best to go to the source documents (Torah, Gospels of Jesus, and Koran) and do the best you can yourself.
aguy2
 
Most christians cannot believe that Satan, the beast can tranform himself into an angel of light saying " I am the Jesus of Nazareth", who can do miracles, wonders and mighty deeds to deceive all of mankind if it were possible ("the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world" Rev.12:9). The Beast that said, "I am the Jesus of Nazareth" (The Mystery Christ), blinded Saul, then restored Saul's sight, making Saul a prisoner and compelled Saul to suffer. The JESUS of the gospels would NOT cause anyone to suffer or make anyone feel like his prisoner.

Saul/St.Paul said, "Abstain from all appearance of evil" - (1Thess. 5:22). The abstaining from all appearance of evil is the same as wolves wearing sheeps clothing. --- JESUS said, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheeps clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. --- Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them." ( Matthew 7:15-20 ) --- ( fruits --> the result of action )

Also Satan came as the angel Gabriel to Muhammad in 610 A.D., Satan came as angel of light to Joseph Smith in 1823 A.D., and there are other false prophets that have established religions in the world.

A Deceiver will blind them, then when they are blind, the Deceiver will tell them that they can see. THE GREAT DECEIVER does not have an appearance of evil, and operates in secret like a chameleon, Saul learned the art of deception from his God, the deceiver. For example:
"--- Whether in pretence or in truth, Christ is preached I therein do rejoice." (Phil. 1:18) --- " And unto the Jews I became a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; --- To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by ALL MEANS save some. ---" and by ALL MEANS gain them, even by showing great signs and wonders. It has been very apparent that those who worship Saul's Christ, would not hesitate using ALL MEANS to gain disciples. ( by ALL MEANS is ? ----- ) Christian history by christians, past and present has revealed this to be so

John's Revelation ---> " the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image." ( Rev. 19:20 ) --- "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the whole world, ---"( Rev.16:14 ).

Saul said,---> "Truly the sign of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds".( 2 Cor. 12:12). --- " Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentles by them." (Acts 15:12 )

JESUS warned,---> "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive The Very Elect."-( Matt. 24:24 )

Saul/St.Paul said, "I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not:" Saul cried out, "I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee.-( Acts 23:6 ). Did Saul lie to the council??? It is impossible to be an apostle of JESUS and a Pharisee at the same time!

Peace be with you, Paul
 
c20H25N3o: There is no point in arguing with those who renounce Paul. Paul was 'for' Jesus. If He was 'for' him, how could he be 'against him'. Those who reject Paul reject Jesus and those who reject Jesus reject Paul. If you reject Jesus and yet still call Paul's God a false God then you must believe that Jesus' Father is God and are doubly guilty therefore of rejecting a God you know to be true!
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M*W: Paul was not Jesus. Jesus was not Paul. Paul never knew Jesus. Jesus never knew Paul. Paul appointed himself a disciple of Jesus Christ. Jesus never knew Paul. I reject the teachings of Paul, and Jesus may not have even existed, so there you go. Paul has historically been known to be a liar. He even admits it in the NT. I'm not guilty of anything in my own eyes, and I don't believe in the god of Jesus OR Paul. They were both wrong, and I don't believe any God they believed in to be true.
 
Hello melodicbard,

"The question remains, which denomination is closest to the Jesus's Teaching."

This question has been on my mind for many years. Jesus's Teaching?

Which Jesus? Saul/St.Paul Jesus, or, The JESUS of the gospels?

Peace be with you, Paul
 
battig1370: "The question remains, which denomination is closest to the Jesus's Teaching." This question has been on my mind for many years. Jesus's Teaching? Which Jesus? Saul/St.Paul Jesus, or, The JESUS of the gospels?
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M*W: Which 'denomination' is closer to 'Jesus' teaching?' I would say that no church on Earth is closest to 'Jesus' teaching.' Unless, of course, you could find an ancient Jewish temple or an original church of the Essenes. All other Christian churches, including Catholics, believe in the gospels of Paul, by Paul, and for Paul. There is a big difference between Paul's teachings and Jesus' teachings. No one knows for sure if Jesus even existed or not. Paul, the main gospel writer, never new Jesus, and Jesus never wrote anything, so all you Christians believe in Paulianity not Christianity. Jesus didn't create Christianity, Paul did. Jesus was a Jewish rabbi, if he lived at all. I recommend to you a book by Hyam Maccoby called The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity. It will give you a whole new perspective on the NT.
 
battig1370 said:
Saul/St.Paul said, "I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not:" Saul cried out, "I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee.-( Acts 23:6 ). Did Saul lie to the council??? It is impossible to be an apostle of JESUS and a Pharisee at the same time!
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Why?
 
c20H25N3o said:
I have already told you but you do not listen. It is 'conviction' that I have.
Conviction came upon me and I accepted it for what it was. It is that it is.
My conviction ( as was Paul's) is that Jesus Christ was sent by God to redeem man and to restore him back to God. I did not know God but instead mocked the Christians for their stupidity. I revelled in my own intelligence and tried to tear down their peace with logic and reasoning. They stood firm however because they were convicted.
God opened my eyes that were firmly shut. I empathise with Paul, we love the same God. It is obvious to me. And I am able to discern his motives at every turn and can confirm that he received the same Spirit that helps me.
In fact the one thing that Paul says that causes me to know the man is " I thank God that He gave me my own 'person'" I can so empathise with that.
I love Paul with all my heart. I can do nothing else.

peace

c20
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In other words you don't know he was telling the truth.

Arbitrariness causes you to have this "conviction". After all, what about those who have a conviction that Mohammed was telling the truth? Is God going to punish them arbitrarily even though they use the same excuse you are?
 
§outh§tar said:
In other words you don't know he was telling the truth.

Arbitrariness causes you to have this "conviction". After all, what about those who have a conviction that Mohammed was telling the truth? Is God going to punish them arbitrarily even though they use the same excuse you are?
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Who is talking about punishment? I am not man's judge! What other men believe in is their business. << That is an attitude perhaps you yourself should adopt lest you be the hypocrite you would have me be!
Take that plank out of your own eye and then you may see clearly enough to remove the speck out of your brothers eye!
 
SouthStar said:
Presuming he is telling the truth, yes?
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It's easy enough to follow Paul's reasoning for yourself. He cites his sources, and explains his reasoning. If you don't follow, do some studying, but it doesn't help to call him a liar just to justify yourself.

The possibility that Paul was deceptive takes a little too much unwarranted imagination. It's only possible if you go beyond the evidence and insist that Paul wasn't a Jew, in other words, if you take him out of his context - see Paul in recent research.

And a lot of people forget that not everything in the NT was written by Paul.
 
§outh§tar said:
Presuming he is telling the truth, yes?
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Why do you ask? Take your stance and stick with it. You believe it is a lie. Well that is how it is for you then! What of it? Do believers have to answer to the unbelievers? I think not! If it is a lie then prove it to be false in your own words and let others make up there own mind as they follow your debate. Why are you asking a believer to help you in your case against that self same believer? This is the most ridiculous work of folly I have yet seen on here!
Who testifies against themselves! Duh! :confused:
 
c20H25N3o; --- Saul/St.Paul said, "I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not:" Saul cried out, "I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee.-( Acts 23:6 ).

Also, just before Saul was taken before the council Saul told the centurion he is a Roman. The chief captain came, and said unto him. "Tell me, art thou a Roman? He said, Yea." (Acts 22:25-27)

Did Saul lie to the council? And why?

It is impossible to be an apostle of JESUS and a Pharisee at the same time!

Peace be with you, Paul
 
battig1370 said:
c20H25N3o; --- Saul/St.Paul said, "I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not:" Saul cried out, "I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee.-( Acts 23:6 ).

Also, just before Saul was taken before the council Saul told the centurion he is a Roman. The chief captain came, and said unto him. "Tell me, art thou a Roman? He said, Yea." (Acts 22:25-27)

Did Saul lie to the council? And why?

It is impossible to be an apostle of JESUS and a Pharisee at the same time!

Peace be with you, Paul
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I am who I am. Learn the mystery and be set free by it!
 
Battig1370,

If you don't know these things, how can you make arguments from them?
During this time of Pompey (67 B.C.), Tarsus was made capital over the Roman province of Cilicia, and Jews began to receive Roman citizenship.

Tarsus was the hometown of the apostle Paul (Acts 9:11), a city of great importance (21:39) as a learning center of the ancient world, alongside Alexandria and Athens. Notably, Jewish citizens of Tarsus were granted Roman citizenship. As a child, Paul was raised in Jerusalem and properly educated under the tutelage of Gamaliel, a member of the Sanhedrin [and a Pharisee]. Paul’s trade, tentmaking, fits well with Tarsus, a city well-known for making a certain type of felt cloth from the wool of shaggy black goats.
- Bibleplace: Tarsus​
 
Jenyar said:
Battig1370,

If you don't know these things, how can you make arguments from them?
During this time of Pompey (67 B.C.), Tarsus was made capital over the Roman province of Cilicia, and Jews began to receive Roman citizenship.

Tarsus was the hometown of the apostle Paul (Acts 9:11), a city of great importance (21:39) as a learning center of the ancient world, alongside Alexandria and Athens. Notably, Jewish citizens of Tarsus were granted Roman citizenship. As a child, Paul was raised in Jerusalem and properly educated under the tutelage of Gamaliel, a member of the Sanhedrin [and a Pharisee]. Paul’s trade, tentmaking, fits well with Tarsus, a city well-known for making a certain type of felt cloth from the wool of shaggy black goats.
- Bibleplace: Tarsus​
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Thank God for the true scholars here ^^
 
c20H25N3o said:
Who is talking about punishment? I am not man's judge! What other men believe in is their business. << That is an attitude perhaps you yourself should adopt lest you be the hypocrite you would have me be!
Take that plank out of your own eye and then you may see clearly enough to remove the speck out of your brothers eye!
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I could summon at least 3 members on here who have born witness to your belittling and ad hominem remarks.

You will do well to stop judging me and take your own advice.
 
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