Simple Test for the quran

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Bruce Wayne said:
There are matters one must feel pride in. Do you no feel proud you believe??

I feel humbled.


Do tell me what those standards are.

Truth for one.


let's see.




good.



good.



good. Althug it doesn't exactly say that. It says it will be perserved and protected.



good.



good.



good.


Now here your guy lets you down. This testifies that this man doesn't know the simplest thing about Islam. If he can come up with this, how can he be trusted to explain the arabic accuracy of the Qur'an?? The number 19 is a tenet of the belief of one of the sects just like those that rap about "wholeness". Not Islam


No that is not true. It has changed lives because uit is true. But other -less truthfool- books, such as the bible or faust, have changed lives too as do many others book that don't even set to change lives.


Are you saying the claims are not correct or that they do not suffice?


Now your man fails you again. The Qur'an is the basis on which the Arab grammar is derived. You should not be fooled by this charlatan.



I already explained this to Randolfo and It makes sense and it is precise.


These quotes were taken from the Muslim's book so your bone to pick is not with me. Your fellow Muslim is to blame.

That is a claim that I see no arguments for. Do try and read about it and post.
Also that prophecy was clearly accurate. It even has a nice thing in it. It says that the battle area is the "adna al-Ard". Adna in Arabic means nearest and lowest. Now it has been proven to be the lowest point on the earth surface. ;)

About the biblical prophecies. Wasn't Jesus -peace be upon him- suppose to come back before hios adepts could go through the cities of Israel.

Where does the Holy Bible say this?

Specialized doctors seemed convinced it was true. Since I have not studied the matter before I will opt to go with them (after all, I am biased too)

And who may I ask, gives christians the right to speak about science. After all the mutilation of science the bible commits. Dude, If your house is made of glass, don't throw stones at the house of others.

So I suppose you are admitting this? And what "mutilation of science" does the Bible commit? Funny that you wouldn't post "all" or even one of these "mutilations"..

Now this is funny. And let this be a lesson to you, never trust blindly! I do however appreciate you precision, albeith it is not complete. The verse indicates that when they shall meet God. Those that do not believe will want to give all the earthly to be spared the eternal punishment.

The verse:

Al-Maeda (The Table, The table spread) 5: verse 36:

"As to those who reject Faith,- if they had everything on earth, and twice repeated, to give as ransom for the penalty of the Day of Judgment, it would never be accepted of them, theirs would be a grievous penalty. "

The verse includes nothing from the quote??? What are you talking about?

http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=37738

Again it is funny that a christan can come up with stuff like this. Beware that glass house. You are referring to matrimonal problem solving. It is a tad more complicated than what you think.

Funny, huh? There are women in the Bible who occupy important positions. But do not be fooled, the Bible is not about man, woman, or who is better.

Shortly, Marriage is based on religion. If man and women are Muslim they will conductordingly. This solves problems such as adultery, finacilal matters, the raizing of childeren and the such..

Now basically there are many protocols to solve problems. Of which is the important mechanism of bringing in one of her family and one of his family. So they can help solve the problem. It is quite intricate. Islam even specifies that how the women should behave when the man is telling her about what happened at work, i.e; listen and raise his moral instead of berating him. And calls for affection and many of the like.
AL-Baqara (the Cow) 2: 187

"They (your wives) are your garment and you are a garment for them."
Basically a religious Muslim family will not easily run in trouble.

If you want more info on this I' ll be happy to oblige.

Now comes the verse. And this is why you should quote the verse (completely)

An-Nisa (The Women) 4:verse 34

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)."

How convenient that you should add "lightly" to the text. I suppose beating would solve the problem, and even as you so cunningly added, "beating lightly" would be a great factor in remedying the family problem. :rolleyes:

So if your wife is cheating on you. You don't just beat her up as many would do. But you should talk to her first... God this faith is beautifull!!

Note also, that Islam desn't blame Eve for Adam's action. Also the relation of men and women are equal before God contrary to what the bible claims, i.e; that man was created for God and the women was created for the man.

I'll refrain from breaking your glass house.

Peace be upon you.

Breaking my glass house. It is unfortunate that you know little to nothing about the Bible and yet speak as if you do. The Bible claims "that man was created for God and the women was created for the man."? That is ABSOLUTELY FALSE and you had better read the Holy Scripture because the Bible does NOT say that.

Sorry from breaking your glass house.. :p

http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/husbandsAgape.htm
 
Bruce Wayne said:
There are matters one must feel pride in. Do you no feel proud you believe??

I feel humbled.


Do tell me what those standards are.

Truth for one.


let's see.




good.



good.



good. Althug it doesn't exactly say that. It says it will be perserved and protected.



good.



good.



good.


Now here your guy lets you down. This testifies that this man doesn't know the simplest thing about Islam. If he can come up with this, how can he be trusted to explain the arabic accuracy of the Qur'an?? The number 19 is a tenet of the belief of one of the sects just like those that rap about "wholeness". Not Islam


No that is not true. It has changed lives because uit is true. But other -less truthfool- books, such as the bible or faust, have changed lives too as do many others book that don't even set to change lives.


Are you saying the claims are not correct or that they do not suffice?


Now your man fails you again. The Qur'an is the basis on which the Arab grammar is derived. You should not be fooled by this charlatan.



I already explained this to Randolfo and It makes sense and it is precise.


These quotes were taken from the Muslim's book so your bone to pick is not with me. Your fellow Muslim is to blame.

That is a claim that I see no arguments for. Do try and read about it and post.
Also that prophecy was clearly accurate. It even has a nice thing in it. It says that the battle area is the "adna al-Ard". Adna in Arabic means nearest and lowest. Now it has been proven to be the lowest point on the earth surface. ;)

About the biblical prophecies. Wasn't Jesus -peace be upon him- suppose to come back before hios adepts could go through the cities of Israel.

Where does the Holy Bible say this?

Specialized doctors seemed convinced it was true. Since I have not studied the matter before I will opt to go with them (after all, I am biased too)

And who may I ask, gives christians the right to speak about science. After all the mutilation of science the bible commits. Dude, If your house is made of glass, don't throw stones at the house of others.

So I suppose you are admitting this? And what "mutilation of science" does the Bible commit? Funny that you wouldn't post "all" or even one of these "mutilations"..

Now this is funny. And let this be a lesson to you, never trust blindly! I do however appreciate you precision, albeith it is not complete. The verse indicates that when they shall meet God. Those that do not believe will want to give all the earthly to be spared the eternal punishment.

The verse:

Al-Maeda (The Table, The table spread) 5: verse 36:

"As to those who reject Faith,- if they had everything on earth, and twice repeated, to give as ransom for the penalty of the Day of Judgment, it would never be accepted of them, theirs would be a grievous penalty. "

The verse includes nothing from the quote??? What are you talking about?

http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=37738

Again it is funny that a christan can come up with stuff like this. Beware that glass house. You are referring to matrimonal problem solving. It is a tad more complicated than what you think.

Funny, huh? There are women in the Bible who occupy important positions. But do not be fooled, the Bible is not about man, woman, or who is better.

Shortly, Marriage is based on religion. If man and women are Muslim they will conductordingly. This solves problems such as adultery, finacilal matters, the raizing of childeren and the such..

Now basically there are many protocols to solve problems. Of which is the important mechanism of bringing in one of her family and one of his family. So they can help solve the problem. It is quite intricate. Islam even specifies that how the women should behave when the man is telling her about what happened at work, i.e; listen and raise his moral instead of berating him. And calls for affection and many of the like.

AL-Baqara (the Cow) 2: 187

"They (your wives) are your garment and you are a garment for them."
Basically a religious Muslim family will not easily run in trouble.

If you want more info on this I' ll be happy to oblige.

Now comes the verse. And this is why you should quote the verse (completely)

An-Nisa (The Women) 4:verse 34

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)."

How convenient that you should add "lightly" to the text. I suppose beating would solve the problem, and even as you so cunningly added, "beating lightly" would be a great factor in remedying the family problem. :rolleyes:

So if your wife is cheating on you. You don't just beat her up as many would do. But you should talk to her first... God this faith is beautifull!!

Note also, that Islam desn't blame Eve for Adam's action. Also the relation of men and women are equal before God contrary to what the bible claims, i.e; that man was created for God and the women was created for the man.

I'll refrain from breaking your glass house.

Peace be upon you.

Breaking my glass house. It is unfortunate that you know little to nothing about the Bible and yet speak as if you do. The Bible claims "that man was created for God and the women was created for the man."? That is ABSOLUTELY FALSE and you had better read the Holy Scripture because the Bible does NOT say that.

Sorry from breaking your glass house.. :p

http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/husbandsAgape.htm
 
§outh§tar said:
I feel humbled.




Truth for one.





These quotes were taken from the Muslim's book so your bone to pick is not with me. Your fellow Muslim is to blame.


















Where does the Holy Bible say this?



So I suppose you are admitting this? And what "mutilation of science" does the Bible commit? Funny that you wouldn't post "all" or even one of these "mutilations"..



The verse includes nothing from the quote??? What are you talking about?

http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=37738



Funny, huh? There are women in the Bible who occupy important positions. But do not be fooled, the Bible is not about man, woman, or who is better.



How convenient that you should add "lightly" to the text. I suppose beating would solve the problem, and even as you so cunningly added, "beating lightly" would be a great factor in remedying the family problem. :rolleyes:



Breaking my glass house. It is unfortunate that you know little to nothing about the Bible and yet speak as if you do. The Bible claims "that man was created for God and the women was created for the man."? That is ABSOLUTELY FALSE and you had better read the Holy Scripture because the Bible does NOT say that.

Sorry from breaking your glass house.. :p

http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/husbandsAgape.htm







what important places? these?:



A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent 1timothy 2:11-12




Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything Ephesians 5: 22-24



As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 1 Corithians 14:34-35


And about 500 other examples in the old testement...unless your yard is "squeaky clean" you shouldnt complain about your neighbors :)
 
@ surrender

I am assuming you totally ignored the link at the bottom?

What you are doing is taking these out of context. The link should help :)
 
§outh§tar said:
@ surrender

I am assuming you totally ignored the link at the bottom?

What you are doing is taking these out of context. The link should help :)[/Q





Southstar,
I did gloss over the link but my problem is that we(christians and muslims) could "nick-pick" over each others verses which from the outside looking in would appear to be sexist or whatever which is why I think having a debate about "my book is holier(sp?) than yours" is fruitless....thats the only point im trying to make ;) not trying to disrespect you or christians in general. Hey as a matter of fact some of my best friends are christians :D.....peace
 
path said:
No one answered my question, here it is again if you please "what is the deal with abrogation in the quran? Is it the case that certain verses cancel out others or not?"
they can't, it would prove their "perfect" quran wasn't so "perfect" :D
 
surenderer said:
§outh§tar said:
@ surrender

I am assuming you totally ignored the link at the bottom?

What you are doing is taking these out of context. The link should help [/Q



Southstar,
I did gloss over the link but my problem is that we(christians and muslims) could "nick-pick" over each others verses which from the outside looking in would appear to be sexist or whatever which is why I think having a debate about "my book is holier(sp?) than yours" is fruitless....thats the only point im trying to make ;) not trying to disrespect you or christians in general. Hey as a matter of fact some of my best friends are christians .....peace

As long as you remember that my book is still holier than yours.. :rolleyes:

Nice to see open minded people. :)
 
Bruce Wayne said:
The sister is mentionned but not by name. At least as far as I know. She is not the same as Jesus' mother -peace be upon him.

The virgin Maryam did not have the same parents as Haaroun-peace be upon them both yet they were brother and sister. She came much later in the time of Zakara and Yahya (John?) -peace be upon them.
:

islam doesn't know names or titles, sister of ______? son of ________? Mary & Joseph claimed linage from David, so that Jesus would have been 'beth David', (House of David, not House of Aaron).
funny that in islam Jesus spoke at birth, while in Christianity, he was a normal male until He was baptised, His first miracle was turning water into wine at the wedding in Cana. also, if Jesus ever spoke like that, He would have really been a muslim, unfortunately for muslims, He never uttered those words, made up by Mohammad or whoever


from:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/19/index.html

16 And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East,

17 And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.

18 She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art God- fearing.

19 He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

20 She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste ?

21 He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.

22 And she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place.

23 And the pangs of childbirth drove her unto the trunk of the palm-tree. She said: Oh, would that I had died ere this and had become a thing of naught, forgotten!

24 Then (one) cried unto her from below her, saying: Grieve not! Thy Lord hath placed a rivulet beneath thee,

25 And shake the trunk of the palm-tree toward thee, thou wilt cause ripe dates to fall upon thee.

26 So eat and drink and be consoled. And if thou meetest any mortal, say: Lo! I have vowed a fast unto the Beneficent, and may not speak this day to any mortal.

27 Then she brought him to her own folk, carrying him. They said: O Mary! Thou hast come with an amazing thing.

Mary, the mother of Jesus,
was the sister of Aaron.
(Apparently, Muhammad
confused Mary with Miriam.)

28 O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot.

29 Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy ?

30 He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,

31 And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive,

32 And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest.

33 Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!

34 Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.
 
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the unchanging word of allah? you mean, allah of the absent-minded?

from:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/abrogation.html

Have some passages in the Quran been abrogated?
No, the Quran is perfect and can never be abrogated.

6:34
There is none to alter the decisions of Allah.

6:115
Perfected is the Word of thy Lord in truth and justice. There is naught that can change His words.

10:64
There is no changing the Words of Allah.

18:27
And recite that which hath been revealed unto thee of the Scripture of thy Lord. There is none who can change His words.


Yes, some verses have been abrogated.
2:106
Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof.

16:101
And when We put a revelation in place of (another) revelation, - and Allah knoweth best what He revealeth - they say: Lo! thou art but inventing. Most of them know not.
 
Randolfo said:
they can't, it would prove their "perfect" quran wasn't so "perfect" :D





Well actually i did answer this once but here i go again :rolleyes: ,


"Whichever Ayah We relinquish or cause to be forgotten We replace it with its equal or with that which is greater, did you not know that God is capable of all things?" 2:106


in this verse(the one above) you guys seem to think that Ayah means verse or scripture but notice in this verse:


And We supported Moses with nine profound Ayah’s (miracles)." 17:101


but in that verse it means miracles(see why one has to read it in arabic)



And the folk of Noah, when they disbelieved the messengers, We have drowned them and set an Ayah (example) of them for all people." 25:37....remember the reason God sends different Prophets is because his people need reminders or become lost



In that verse it means example





This is a book that We have sent down to you that is sacred, perhaps they will reflect on its ‘Ayat’ (verses)." 38:29


but in that verse it does mean verses.....this is why the Koran in any other language(besides arabic) is not authentic......oh yea and look up the defination of the word 'muslim' not as you see them but as the dictionary states:

Main Entry: Mus·lim
Pronunciation: 'm&z-l&m, 'mus-, 'muz-
Function: noun
Etymology: Arabic muslim, literally, one who surrenders (to God)


and tell me again that Jesus(pbuh) Moses(pbuh) etc..... werent muslims tell me again that they BY DEFINITION werent muslims :) .....peace to you
 
surenderer said:
And We supported Moses with nine profound Ayah’s (miracles)." 17:101

What are these 9 Ayahs that moses was supported with?
 
surenderer said:
but in that verse it means miracles(see why one has to read it in arabic)

So it has 3 different meanings in the quran and only makes sense in arabic? Why in the world would god send his final message for "ALL OF HUMANITY FOR ALL TIME" in an obscure language spoken by a tiny fraction of humanity? I mean he had Greek, Latin, Hindi, and Chinese to name a few which would have immediately reached a vastly larger portion of humanity than Arabic. Personally I believe if god was going to truly send down this sort of book it would have been in an entirely unknown miraculous language that would be understood by ALL people on earth even the illiterate, honestly would that be beyond his power?

:m:
 
path said:
So it has 3 different meanings in the quran and only makes sense in arabic? Why in the world would god send his final message for "ALL OF HUMANITY FOR ALL TIME" in an obscure language spoken by a tiny fraction of humanity? I mean he had Greek, Latin, Hindi, and Chinese to name a few which would have immediately reached a vastly larger portion of humanity than Arabic. Personally I believe if god was going to truly send down this sort of book it would have been in an entirely unknown miraculous language that would be understood by ALL people on earth even the illiterate, honestly would that be beyond his power?

:m:



Actually Ayat has 4 different meanings. Why do you not think that people wouldnt have the same problem if it was brought in another language? take English for example(to, two,too) or phone with a ph instead of an f(i still dont understand that :confused: )or here and hear etc...... (try explaining those to a foreigner)i am bilingual and can speak three languages and i tell you that Arabic was not the hardest i learned but when the Koran is read in Arabic thoses verses make sense Dont you think that God is worth learning the language so one can understand the way it was revealed? Look at was happened to the Bible because of translations(or actually mistranslations) that is what the Koran in Arabic avoids :) I really hate debating the Koran with people who only know english(i dont mean any offense) because they can only understand what one would call a translation of what was revelead. And dont forget with islam now spreading (1 out of 5 globally) it seems that although people dont speak "dominate" arabic they at least know enough to read the Koran. Christianity is the most dominate religion in the world but how many people speak Hebrew? not many which is why i can go to any store and pick up two or three different Bibles and they each say different things....which is God's word? again thats not a problem in the Koran......peace to you Path
 
surenderer said:
Actually Ayat has 4 different meanings. Why do you not think that people wouldnt have the same problem if it was brought in another language? take English for example(to, two,too)

Because there is a clear difference the example you gave in norweigan (my adopted language) would be translated (til, to, også) no confusion at all.

or phone with a ph instead of an f(i still dont understand that :confused: )or here and hear etc...... (try explaining those to a foreigner)

You are talking about abbreviating words not proper language phone is actually telephone the ph rule remains the same nothing ambiguous about that.

i am bilingual and can speak three languages and i tell you that Arabic was not the hardest i learned but when the Koran is read in Arabic thoses verses make sense Dont you think that God is worth learning the language so one can understand the way it was revealed?

No because I am certain god didn't write the quran.

Look at was happened to the Bible because of translations(or actually mistranslations) that is what the Koran in Arabic avoids :)

It does?! Have you noticed all the different interpretations muslims themselves have of what the quran says? Al quaida uses it, salafyists use it, sunni, shia, sufi etc all use it and there seem to be no variation in understanding of the quran.


I really hate debating the Koran with people who only know english(i dont mean any offense) because they can only understand what one would call a translation of what was revelead.

See my post above on the shortsightedness of god giving the quran in arabic

And dont forget with islam now spreading (1 out of 5 globally) it seems that although people dont speak "dominate" arabic they at least know enough to read the Koran.

Don't see what this has to do with anything

Christianity is the most dominate religion in the world but how many people speak Hebrew? not many which is why i can go to any store and pick up two or three different Bibles and they each say different things....which is God's word? again thats not a problem in the Koran......peace to you Path

I don't think the bible makes the same claims as the quran so this is irrelevant.

Peace, love and understanding to you :)
 
path said:
Oh BTW surrenderer what were the 9 ayah given to moses?




Path,

In the Koran Musa(Moses)(pbuh) Facing the Pharaoh and his sorcerers, Moses proves with the help of God, that he possesses the strongest power. The sorcerers are converted on the spot, but not Pharaoh. All in all, Moses performs 9 miracles: 1. The rod and the snake. 2. The white hand. 3. Deluge. 4. Locusts. 5. Lice. 6. Frogs. 7. Blood. 8. Darkness. 9. Dividing of the sea (after the start of the Exodus from Egypt).....As far a Norwegian is concerend i dont know that language but i bet you that there is some confusion in how some of the words are translated.....havent you ever heard of a homonym?(words spelled the same but different meaning) ph for the word phone being a abbreviation...gimmie a break :rolleyes: how about my to, too, two example? i was talking about telephone instead of teleFone. you say islam spreading has"nothing to do with anything" yet it IS spreading so people are obviously taking the time to learn arabic.And i know that people like Al Queida misinterpet the Korans verses but that does happen to the bible also doesnt it?(I forget whats the sign of the KKK?.....Oh yea a burning cross :eek: ) Oh yea and the bible does make most of the same claims as the Koran except muslims dont "count out" Gods anger by saying "oh yea but that was the old testement :rolleyes: ".....peace
 
surenderer said:
Path,

In the Koran Musa(Moses)(pbuh) Facing the Pharaoh and his sorcerers, Moses proves with the help of God, that he possesses the strongest power. The sorcerers are converted on the spot, but not Pharaoh. All in all, Moses performs 9 miracles: 1. The rod and the snake. 2. The white hand. 3. Deluge. 4. Locusts. 5. Lice. 6. Frogs. 7. Blood. 8. Darkness. 9. Dividing of the sea (after the start of the Exodus from Egypt).....
Thanks :)
As far a Norwegian is concerend i dont know that language but i bet you that there is some confusion in how some of the words are translated.....havent you ever heard of a homonym?(words spelled the same but different meaning) ph for the word phone being a abbreviation...gimmie a break how about my to, too, two example?

The two, to, too example is exactly what I addressed. Yes I have heard of a homonym I know all human languages have quirks, my point was more why if you first are trying to reach all of humanity, don't you use one of the other languages I mentioned that were much more widespread at the time, hence you would reach a bigger audience. Greek and latin were like the lingua franca of the middle east, north africa and southern europe. However if god really was trying to write a book that was supposed to be "a guide for all mankind for all time" I truly believe he would have done it in a divine language that he created that could be understood by all mankind. God is not arabic.

i was talking about telephone instead of teleFone. you say islam spreading has"nothing to do with anything" yet it IS spreading so people are obviously taking the time to learn arabic.

Right but what I meant was that doesn't prove anything in itself.

And i know that people like Al Queida misinterpet the Korans verses but that does happen to the bible also doesnt it?(I forget whats the sign of the KKK?.....Oh yea a burning cross :eek: ) Oh yea and the bible does make most of the same claims as the Koran except muslims dont "count out" Gods anger by saying "oh yea but that was the old testement ".....peace

No read what I wrote again, I simply meant that despite claims that keeping the quran only in arabic avoids confusion there is in fact confusion. I am not christian and believe the bible is as manmade as the quran.

Peace
 
path said:
Come on, it is a simple enough question, you said the quran is easy to understand and precise.

Sorry for letting you wait pathrick, old boy. Priorities you know and every time I try to write something more important comes along.

Let's see. Where shall I start?

Ok, the cure we mentioned before is indeed simple since it engulfs human nature. On the other hand it does have a multitude of mechanisms.

First Islam establishes that Zina/Adultery is a bad thing. It is among the 7 chief sins. It is firmly denounced as not befitting the Muslim. Off course for a pious Muslim this would be enough for him not to partake in crimes of the kind. Let alone if it was the norm in a Muslim society. Note here that sexuality is not a taboo in a Muslim society.

Islam in fact doesn't say don't commit adultery, Islam says don't even approach it. That begins by, not even looking at strange women. If a Muslim man should see a woman naked, like so many are nowadays, he has no excuse. He should look away. Also there is no room for innocent”friendships, no hanging around between a single man and a single woman. As Omar-ibn-abd-al-Aziz (the grandson of Omar ibn-al-khattab) -may they both be rewarded for the many good they did- said, Don't be alone with a (stranger)woman even if it is to teach her the Qur'an.

Now there is to be no "coziness" between a woman and a man outside the prescribed limits. That is within the direct family (not cousins). This doesn't mean that a man and a woman who are not direct family can never speak to one another, after all all Muslims are brothers and sisters. It means that if they do they should in decency. Since any excess familiarity could lead to more. Off course decent intercourse is not prohibited.

Now as all know, except the people you directly deal with society plays a huge role. Specially here in Europe and the states you can't walk the street without their being allusions to sexuality. The individual is confronted with billboards, commercials (since women are used to sell everything), (more than) half-naked women. Many men would say they can't help but get over-excited.

In fact, a Dutch Islam-basher had to admit in his column that he felt more at ease in Iran than in the Netherlands -in this regard off course. Off course the billboards and commercials portraying women naked or in an indecent setting are not allowed. But more so there is a dress code for men and women (they have feelings too, you know). So Islam also regulates the role of the public domain.

Now to sum up, slam teaches woman and man that adultery is bad. Off course this is imprinted in them. It regulates their intercourse with one another in a way that limits the temptations and the opportunities. It keeps the -in many cases- destructive public domain in check. All this would be enough to reduce adultery.

But woman and man have natural needs. These needs have to be satisfied. Islam does not see these needs as something bad, on the contrary. The Muslim is rewarded for it.

Now these needs have to be met. And therefore marriage came. The Muslim is encouraged to marry as soon as able. The Muslims are also urged to help one another to marry, especially when puberty hits. Off course if one reaches puberty in an truly Islamic community the urge for sex would not be the same as it is nowadays due to the ever expanding incentives. Now this marriage gives ample room for afore mentioned needs.

There a side note here. When the two married get quite old, when the man reaches his midlife crisis, I have noticed that men tend to look for youth in another mate. Now, as far as I know the bible and catholic christianity forbid the man to marry another woman. Since that is regarded adultery. They also prohibit divorce. The man is thus forced to look for it somewhere else. In secular law, man and woman (9 in 10 in women France have had extramarital relationships.) either commit adultery on the side or get divorced if one of them is being too difficult about it. Islam however gives the man another option. He may preserve his initial family and marry another woman. But that is another -equally beautiful- story.

To return to sex marriage again, Islam not only let the mates have sex it encourages it. Contrary to some other religion it doesn't say that sex is for the making of babies only. Islam says that it is for pleasure too and is thus rewarded. (When the messenger of Allah –peace be upon him- said that, a surprised man asked:” are we rewarded for that?”. The prophet replied:” Aren’t you punished if you do it outside marriage?” It is also the duty of the man and the woman, to make themselves as attractive as possible for their mates.

After having set up all these accommodations Islam establishes law that punish the act of Adultery. It punishes it for the sake of making an example and thus deterring people from it and in order to keep up the social and public decency required in order to dam Adultery. Now the punishments differ. For persons that are not married the sentence is (I believe) a hundred whip. The punishment of the adulterous married is heavier. Islam prescribes stoning. Now this also is not that simple. And this only what I know about it, so I wouldn’t be surprised if it is not exactly the way I tell this part. First of all for these heavier punishments to be conducted four witnesses are needed. This means that adultery an sich is not the target of the punishment. It is rather public display of adultery. Now this is much more important since it (public adultery) does not affect the partaking individuals alone but affects many others too. So in fact it is not allowed to spread. There is another possible course of events possible for married couples. That is if the man or woman accuses his or her partner of committing adultery. In this case the accuser has only to swear to establish the charge. Now the accused can clear himself by swearing his innocent. This happens four times. If they both swear four times they are asked for fifth in which the accuser that Allah’s wrath is upon him if he is lying. This would again establish the guilt. But the accused will have the same option, i.e; to swear that he/she did not commit adultery and if he/she is lying than may Allah’s wrath be upon him/her. If they both swear five time, they ae separated as one of them is definably and defiantly lying.

Peace.
 
Sorry if I intrude here, surrender.

path said:
The two, to, too example is exactly what I addressed. Yes I have heard of a homonym I know all human languages have quirks, my point was more why if you first are trying to reach all of humanity, don't you use one of the other languages I mentioned that were much more widespread at the time, hence you would reach a bigger audience. Greek and latin were like the lingua franca of the middle east, north africa and southern europe.

It is simple. Arabic is a -very- vast language. And about the "lingua franca" of the time. First Arabic was geographically in the middle, between the west (the Fertile Cresent, Northern Africa and Europe) and the east (The Indian subcontinent and china). Second Allah als knows the future. So he knew that within few decades Arabic would be the lingua franca. Also Greek and Latin are "not among us" anymore.

path said:
However if god really was trying to write a book that was supposed to be "a guide for all mankind for all time" I truly believe he would have done it in a divine language that he created that could be understood by all mankind.

As "for all time is concerned" Arabic seemes to be quite well perserved, I is actually coming back again. As "for all mankind" Muslims from all nationalities can be taught in their language in afirst stage. They can also learn Arabic. The greatest men that drawed the intricate rules of Arabic grammar are not Arabs.
 
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