Simple Test for the quran

[path]

One other part were the Qur'an distinct itself from the bibles is the fact that it is clear. When speaking of Himself, God says:"

AL-IKHLAS (SINCERITY) 112:

"(1) Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; (2) Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; (3) He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; (4) And there is none like unto Him."

As you see there is no confusion. No riddles. You don't have to ask, is he one? or maybe three? is Mary -may peace be upon her- divine? Are we like God? How? I believe that even christians believe that God does not sow confusion. By this criterium, I ask all (neutral-)atheists here, which book is best fitting to be the word of God/Allah

Here is something that confuses me somewhat why doesn't god speak of himself in the first person?

 

[surenderer]

Here is something that confuses me somewhat why doesn't god speak of himself in the first person?

Path,
Sup man.....if i ask you to write something down and tell it to people if i were to say...."Say to them, I am funny"(example) you would then write..."I, Path am funny" but if you write it like the Koran writes it then there is no confusion.....peace

 

[surenderer]

Kinda nips any possibility for unfettered quranic scholarship in the bud doesn't it, you tow the party line or your out of the club.

Well this link shows the "articles of faith" and 5 pillars which are requirements to being a muslim:

http://g.msn.com/9SE/1?http://www.u...fddba48419b8426d1b2fee67c9f&POS=2&CM=WPU&CE=1


peace

 

[path]

Path,
Sup man.....if i ask you to write something down and tell it to people if i were to say...."Say to them, I am funny"(example) you would then write..."I, Path am funny" but if you write it like the Koran writes it then there is no confusion.....peace

Is it not accepted and known amongst muslims that muhammed did not write the quran, isn't it supposed to be directly from god? If you have your secretary take a memo or write a letter for you does she write "he would be happy to meet you to discuss your agreement" Then sign it with your name?
When you make out your will it is read back in the first person after you die to remove any confusion as to what you said when you were alive.

Another question what is the deal with abrogation in the quran? Is it the case that certain verses cancel out others or not?

 

[everneo]

what does "Sup" mean ?

 

[path]

what does "Sup" mean ?

Short for "what's up" we americans tend to do that sorta thing we love to abbreviate.

 

[everneo]

nkya (thank you). i thought you guys are in europe.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Which article that I wrote is on shakey ground?

So, since you did not write the articles (I never assumed you could have written an atricle let alone one in the Guardian) you are not on shaky grounds???

You are on shaky grounds since you base your challenge on people who have a vested interest AND which is much much more important have been unmasked as frauds.

I think if you read my posts I personally didn't make any claims, I simply presented some articles on the subject which I found to be of interest.

You gave the articles. You quoted them. So you thought they were worth reading, probably since they had truth in them and since you wanted to make a point. And don't be such a coward and admit that you wrote to show the Qur'an doesn't stand up to the test of time. It turns out the articles are either based on fraud or are primitive trials of the refutation of the Qur'an.

I hope I'll soon be able to write about the first two.

The third, Giron (a jew?) isn't that great either. I have looked through some of his ideas and he didn't really come over as a heavy wheight. He is an amateur. In fact when confronted with a debate (available on mp3) he hides behind "I never said the Qur'an cannot be the word of God. All I said was that I need proof" (kinda reminds me of someone.)

The idea I find most intriguing of all is the possibility that the entire history of muslim-christian religious conflict has been a big misunderstanding. :m:

How swell for you..

By the way. It sadnes me to say this, really it does. But try to learn from Randolfo. At least his posts have a point.

peace

Gottago now..........

 

[path]

nkya (thank you). i thought you guys are in europe.

I am in europe but I am american

 

[surenderer]

Is it not accepted and known amongst muslims that muhammed did not write the quran, isn't it supposed to be directly from god? If you have your secretary take a memo or write a letter for you does she write "he would be happy to meet you to discuss your agreement" Then sign it with your name?
When you make out your will it is read back in the first person after you die to remove any confusion as to what you said when you were alive.

Another question what is the deal with abrogation in the quran? Is it the case that certain verses cancel out others or not?

Well any muslim SHOULD know that the Koran are Gods words reveled to the Prophet(pbuh). As far as that secretary it would be the bosses words on the memo which would be sacred nobody would/should believe that the "boss" actually wrote it but the boss did dictate it word for word to the secretary....that make sense? it does to me but i dont know if i explained it well .......peace

 

[path]

So, since you did not write the articles (I never assumed you could have written an atricle let alone one in the Guardian)

My but how your posts have deteriorated into personal attacks tsk tsk.

You are on shaky grounds since you base your challenge on people who have a vested interest AND which is much much more important have been unmasked as frauds.

Please quote me where I make this supposed challenge. Yes you are correct thank the lord you have no vested interest yourself Have they been unmasked as frauds? I would be interested to read about it if it is from a scholar with no vested interest ie. non-muslim since we know that no muslim can entertain any such notions.

You gave the articles. You quoted them. So you thought they were worth reading, probably since they had truth in them and since you wanted to make a point. And don't be such a coward and admit that you wrote to show the Qur'an doesn't stand up to the test of time. It turns out the articles are either based on fraud or are primitive trials of the refutation of the Qur'an.

I presented some articles I said I found to be interesting. I found the articles interesting as a possible opposing view to your claims of the qurans uncorrupted nature.

The third, Giron (a jew?)

I don't know, does it matter?

I have looked through some of his ideas and he didn't really come over as a heavy wheight. He is an amateur. In fact when confronted with a debate (available on mp3) he hides behind "I never said the Qur'an cannot be the word of God. All I said was that I need proof" (kinda reminds me of someone.)

Amazing someone asks for proof!?.. The nerve of some people

How swell for you..

Glad you are concerned

By the way. It sadnes me to say this, really it does. But try to learn from Randolfo. At least his posts have a point.

It makes me sad to see you sad.

peace

Sounds a bit false after the ad homs doesn't it.

 

[path]

Well any muslim SHOULD know that the Koran are Gods words reveled to the Prophet(pbuh). As far as that secretary it would be the bosses words on the memo which would be sacred nobody would/should believe that the "boss" actually wrote it but the boss did dictate it word for word to the secretary....that make sense? it does to me but i dont know if i explained it well .......peace

Perfect sense, that is why she would write it in the first person as if the boss him/herself had written it.

 

[surenderer]

Perfect sense, that is why she would write it in the first person as if the boss him/herself had written it.

Well i can only think that writing something like that would seem to confuse the dictator with the dictatee(yea i know words probably arent used right ) if i write something and i say"tell them" or "say to them" it would alleviate any problems i do know that this isnt a problem when read in arabic......peace

 

[WildBlueYonder]

This is pure dellusion. If you were not bigoted you would understand that it means ...

which is natural since you have no case, a Muslim should never say except that that is good. He should not be drawn top the level of the Ignorant.

Peace be upon you.

The one who is delusional does not control the conversation, it is up to the psychiatrist to bring them back to reality, using points of reference as guideposts. Young man, if all the rest of the world does not see islam as true, that does not automatically make them 'delusional' or 'madmen'. But if you see them as such, then we have a problem. You, my friend are wrapped tight in a cult, brainwashed to believing that a form of arabic religion, morals & society is the true way toward salvation. Now, as most religions, it has its internal & external beauty, but it also has self-reinforcing 'mind-traps', that make you see everything as being 'judged' by the 'truth of islam'. Logic bends its rules to it, science bends its rules to it, other religions bend their rules to it. Do you see why that can not be so? Logic has its own rules, that it must obey if it is to be 'logic'. Science has its own rules, if it is to be 'science'. Christianity & other religions have their own rules, if they are to be themselves. By its own words, the quran does not know Christianity, science, logic, etc... Now what do you expect the rest of the world to deduce from that?

Tell us, how long has it been that you have had these delusions?

 

[WildBlueYonder]

what does "Sup" mean ?

when I use it, its short for 'supervisor'

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Is this the way the bible teaches you to discuss?

I'm a zealot, what do you want from me? a kiss on your hand or your ring finger, showing subservience? not even in your dreams!

The Creator, that has sent the son of Maryam -peace be upon them both- told us.

"son of Mary" is a total islamic term, while correct physically, Jesus was never known by that name to His followers, He was referred to as the Son of God, the WORD of GOD, Son of Man, Prince of Peace, Alpha & Omega, the Lamb, the Lion of Judah. No Christian knows this Maryam, who according to the quran is both the mother of Jesus & Moses' sister? wrong times, wrong people =false book
now everyone should know that Jesus & Mary (his mother) would have lived about 2,000 years ago, right? can we agree on that? so, when did Miriam live?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/people/features/world_religions/judaism_moses.shtml

Moses was born to slaves in Egypt, probably in the late 14th century BCE.

http://www.jewfaq.org/moshe.htm

Moses, Aaron and Miram were the leaders of the Children of Israel at a pivotal time in our history: the Exodus from Egypt and the forty years of wandering in the desert before the people entered the Promised Land.

btw: you are not my equal.

you're right, but I didn't want everyone to think I was conceded, by telling you I was your 'superior', my child

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Path,
Sup man.....if i ask you to write something down and tell it to people if i were to say...."Say to them, I am funny"(example) you would then write..."I, Path am funny" but if you write it like the Koran writes it then there is no confusion.....peace

the quran, many cooks in the pot, many hands in the making, read this:

from:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/denis_giron/multiple.html

[The Qur'an] is strikingly lacking in overall structure, frequently obscure and inconsequential in both language and content, perfunctory in its linking of disparate materials, and given to the repetition of whole passages in variant versions. On this basis it can plausibly be argued that the book is the product of belated and imperfect editing of materials from a plurality of traditions.1

1.Patricia Crone and Michael Cook, Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World, (Cambridge, 1977) p. 18

from:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4048586,00.html

Dr Gerd R Puin, a renowned Islamicist at Saarland University, Germany, says it is not one single work that has survived unchanged through the centuries. It may include stories that were written before the prophet Mohammed began his ministry and which have subsequently been rewritten.
...
As years went by, the correct reading of the Koran became less clear, he says. People made changes to make sense of the text. Puin gives as example Hajjaj bin Yusuf, governor of Iraq from 694-714 AD, who "was proud of inserting more than 1,000 alifs [first letter of the Arabic alphabet] in the Koranic text".
...
Puin also questions another sacred belief that Muslims hold about the Koran, that it was written in the purest Arabic. He has found many words of foreign origin in the text, including the word "Koran" itself. Muslim scholars explain the "Koran" to mean recitation, but Puin argues that it is actually derived from an Aramaic word, qariyun, meaning a lectionary of scripture portions appointed to be read at divine service. He says the Koran contains most of the biblical stories but in a shorter form and is "a summary of the Bible to be read in service".

 

[surenderer]

the quran, many cooks in the pot, many hands in the making, read this:

from:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/denis_giron/multiple.html


from:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4048586,00.html

Well im not interested in what other "experts" say about their interpetation of the Koran just as im sure your not interested in what others say (in negative terms) about the bible. As far as your constant reference(or actually misreference) to mary(pbuh) and musa(moses) the verse actually states:

[33.7] And when We made a covenant with the prophets and with you, and with Nuh and Ibrahim and Musa and Isa, son of Marium, and We made with them a strong covenant


that isnt saying that Musa(pbuh) is mary's(pbuh) mother. I think you know that oh yea and sup doesnt mean supervisor when i use it........ im starting to notice that you have a "holier than thou attitude thou" being a christian as you are do you think thats "christ-like"


peace

 

[Bruce Wayne]

My but how your posts have deteriorated into personal attacks tsk tsk.

You know path, you are right I should not let myself be drawn to criticizing the way you operate. I apologize.

Please quote me where I make this supposed challenge.

Indeed you have not uttered the words. I never the less deduced that it was a challenge as it was quite evident. You cannot blame me for that.

Yes you are correct thank the lord you have no vested interest yourself

The first link is to a website that operates for the vatican. The vatican while saying that it wants a dialogue with Muslims has lately started a campaign against Islam. The site you gave a link to, is one of its mouth pieces. For that kinda thing not everything needs to be legit. criticism. As long as they can keep repeating it undesturbed some people will believe them.

Also I stated that they had been unmasked for fraud. I read the guardian article and a rebuttal quite a long time ago. I have the link but it is in french and it is quite extensive. Alas, I don't think you can speak french. I think, however that the same should be available in English, somewhere.

I presented some articles I said I found to be interesting. I found the articles interesting as a possible opposing view to your claims of the qurans uncorrupted nature.

Again good for you and thank you. I have read of them. Now if you want to use them in this discussion and expect an answer I suggest you write down your arguments in a post and I might reply to that.

I don't know, does it matter?

It does to me. Off course not directly for this discussion. I thought you knew.

Amazing someone asks for proof!?.. The nerve of some people

In his writings he challenges the origin but when confronted he asks for proof.

Sounds a bit false after the ad homs doesn't it.

It does and I had trouble writing it. But in the end I meant it.

:m:

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The one who is delusional does not control the conversation, it is up to the psychiatrist to bring them back to reality, using points of reference as guideposts.

It was pure delusion. Since the verse was clear; If some ingnorant (unpolite) person does not adress you in a decent way. Say peace, wich means say that which is good.

Young man, if all the rest of the world does not see islam as true, that does not automatically make them 'delusional' or 'madmen'.

Indeed. I said no such a thin either.

Young man, if all the rest of the world does not see islam as true, that does not automatically make them 'delusional' or 'madmen'. But if you see them as such, then we have a problem.

What are you talking about

You, my friend are wrapped tight in a cult, brainwashed to believing that a form of arabic religion, morals & society is the true way toward salvation. Now, as most religions, it has its internal & external beauty, but it also has self-reinforcing 'mind-traps', that make you see everything as being 'judged' by the 'truth of islam'. Logic bends its rules to it, science bends its rules to it, other religions bend their rules to it. Do you see why that can not be so?

Logic has its own rules, that it must obey if it is to be 'logic'. Science has its own rules, if it is to be 'science'. Christianity & other religions have their own rules, if they are to be themselves. By its own words, the quran does not know Christianity, science, logic, etc... Now what do you expect the rest of the world to deduce from that?

What are you talking about??? :bugeye:

Tell us, how long has it been that you have had these delusions?

Randolfo, please tell me how old are you??

:m: