Simple Test for the quran

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Randolfo said:
don't insult your equals, I'm not a your dhimmi or anyone else's, dhimwit. why do you want to know where I live? is this a terrorist threat? ready to send out hit squads, now that I know your secret? that the quran can not be defended, so out come the swords, beheading time? huh? can stand people standing up to your lies? oh, too bad, wait till the scientists, archeologists & literary critics get ahold of the quran, they'll rip it to shreds, because it holds no internal consistancies, face it, it's the ramblings of an epileptic egomaniac.
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Is this the way the bible teaches you to discuss?

The Creator, that has sent the son of Maryam -peace be upon them both- told us.

An-Nahl (The Bee)16:verse 125

"Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance."

His is Truth.

Also, Randolpho, My arguments are still standing, one by one. I see in you insults but weakness and fear; your arguments cannot protect you so you screem to make yourself believe anyway.

:m:

btw: you are not my equal.
 
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Be careful Randolfo, some Jewish scholars believe that saying the true name of good could cause you to get struck down by lightning.
 
Randolfo said:
memorizing lies, proves nothing. what diff does that make? are you saying that it proves divinity?
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It shows that Allah did not speak in vain. He said we made it easy and He did. HE said He would prserve it and He did.

Randolfo said:
check your own hadiths, Ayesha had the first copy, followed by at least 2 others before Calif Uthman standardized it, burned all divergant copies, source materials, even memories (by ordering that this was the official version). read for yourself
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Do you think the thousands of Muslims living in the Medina would spare him -may Allah reward him- if he did not? Do you think Ali -may Allah be pleased with him- would have lt him get away with it. Remember there was a generation of great men. If he had one anything to the Word they would have executed him even though he was one of them. Also, the prophet - peace be upon him- trusted him. That is enough of a certificate.

Randolfo said:
BTW, I'm impressed with your friends memory, but what did he do with his knowledge? is he a scholar? or did he memorize a math or physics book? what has he done with his talent?
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My friend is not special. Many more around me do the same. MIllions over the world. Don't be impressed with the result, be impressed with the cause; the Qur'an and the promise of Allah.

:m:
 
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Randolfo said:
in otherwords its a secret, even you don't know or aren't tellling? it must say something that muslims don't want us to know, like al-manat?
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???, lol tell me more about it...

Randolfo said:
when science begins to tear apart your wholy book, what will you claim then? that science is wrong?
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As of yet that hasn't happened yet. Btw is not in the bible that Moses- peace be upon him- stood on a mountain and could see so far that he viewed the whole world? I hate to break it you but the earth is not flat.


Randolfo said:
islam does not even stand up to simple logic, or historical facts
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It does. I just gave you two reasons why the bible doesn't.

Randolfo said:
so, what you are saying, is that when you say "peace", to you is an insult to us so-called ignorant ones? what an underhanded sneaky devilish way of insulting someone, what a master you serve! that taught you such devious ways!
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This is pure dellusion. If you were not bigoted you would understand that it means that although you don't seem to shy away from insults, which is natural since you have no case, a Muslim should never say except that that is good. He should not be drawn top the level of the Ignorant.

Randolfo said:
so its shi'ia, don't believe them? they are your brothers, no?
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I said used. This is a matter beyond you. Let's say the shi'a are better to me than many many others, whtithin "Islam" (like Sufi) and certainly outside it.

Peace be upon you.
 
fadeaway humper said:
Relax, Randolfo, I think he was adressing me with the "dhimmi" (although I'm technically a kafir) ;). Nobody is coming after you!

Bruce: I live in Spain, by the way.
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thanks for you reply.

:m:
 
Bruce Wayne said:


This is pure dellusion. If you were not bigoted you would understand that it means that although you don't seem to shy away from insults, which is natural since you have no case, a Muslim should never say except that that is good. He should not be drawn top the level of the Ignorant.

I said used. This is a matter beyond you. Let's say the shi'a are better to me than many many others, whtithin "Islam" (like Sufi) and certainly outside it.

Peace be upon you.
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sorry, old man, but I think I would call you the bigoted one, the one that thinks they know the truth, but only from their own 'view'

actually, I do understand more than you ever will, peace be upon you
 
Randolfo said:
why should he care where anyone lives? what, meet for coffee or tea?
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What if I did? And who might I ask are you to intefere in something between me and fadeaway humper???

Randolfo said:
& 'dhimmi' is an insult, even if you use it as 'dhimmi' power, I think it implies more like a 'child' or someone 'protected by a superior'.
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dhimmi is the world that assured christian under the Muslim dominion a treatment they could never expect from their "christian brothers."

Randolfo said:
I'll stick to "Christian"...
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ok, but know that the messiah -peace be upon him- doesn't want people to be christians. He wants them to worship his God.

Randolfo said:
& protected by God
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You may claim it. God doesn't protect polytheists. NOt in particular (He actually protects all of us)

Peace be upon you.
 
Randolfo said:
sorry, old man, but I think I would call you the bigoted one, the one that thinks they know the truth, but only from their own 'view'

actually, I do understand more than you ever will, peace be upon you
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So you understand that the verse is not a "devilish"way of insult but a higher moral code.

btw: I don't calim knowledge or understanding. I am but a simple limited man.

:m:
 
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Some food for thought on the possibility of the quran being the work of multiple authors. A snippet.

[The Qur'an] is strikingly lacking in overall structure, frequently obscure and inconsequential in both language and content, perfunctory in its linking of disparate materials, and given to the repetition of whole passages in variant versions. On this basis it can plausibly be argued that the book is the product of belated and imperfect editing of materials from a plurality of traditions.1
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From this article
 
Another source pointing to the likelyhood that the quran was assembled from different sources

The Changing quran

An excerpt
According to Muslim belief, the Koran is the eternal, unaltered Word of God, which has remained the same for 14 centuries. But Dr Gerd R Puin, a renowned Islamicist at Saarland University, Germany, says it is not one single work that has survived unchanged through the centuries. It may include stories that were written before the prophet Mohammed began his ministry and which have subsequently been rewritten.
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and another relating to structure

Until now, there were three ancient copies of the Koran. One copy in the Library of Tashkent in Uzbekistan, and another in the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul, Turkey, date from the eighth century. A copy preserved in the British Library in London, known as the Ma'il manuscript, dates from the late seventh century. But the Sa'na manuscripts are even older. Moreover, the Sa'na manuscripts are written in a script that originates from the Hijaz - the region of Arabia where the prophet Mohammed lived, which makes them not only the oldest to have survived, but one of the earliest copies of the Koran ever.

Puin noticed minor textual variations, unconventional ordering of the chapters (surahs), as well as rare styles of orthography. Then he noticed that the sheets were palimpsests - manuscripts with versions written even earlier that had been washed off or erased. These findings led Dr Puin to assert that the Koran had undergone a textual evolution. In other words, the copy of the Koran that we have is not the one believed to have been revealed to the prophet
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A bit more then I'll stop, it is a fascinating read.

As years went by, the correct reading of the Koran became less clear, he says. People made changes to make sense of the text. Puin gives as example Hajjaj bin Yusuf, governor of Iraq from 694-714 AD, who "was proud of inserting more than 1,000 alifs [first letter of the Arabic alphabet] in the Koranic text".

Professor Allen Jones, lecturer in Koranic Studies at Oxford University, agrees. "Hajjaj is also responsible for putting the diacritical marks in the Koran. His changes are a defining moment in the history of the Koran". After Hajjaj's changes in around the 700s, "the Koranic text became pretty stable", he says.

Puin accepts this up to a point, but says that certain words and pronunciations were standardised in the ninth century. He says the Uthmanic text was the skeleton upon which "many layers of interpretation were added" - causing the text to change.
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Another islamic scholar who is convinced that the quran is actually christian in origin. Article here


Check this out from the interview

Beginning in the third century, the Syrian Christians did not limit themselves to bringing their evangelical mission to nearby countries, like Armenia or Persia. They pressed on toward distant territories, all the way to the borders of China and the western coast of India, in addition to the entire Arabian peninsula all the way to Yemen and Ethiopia. It is thus rather probable that, in order to proclaim the Christian message to the Arabic peoples, they would have used (among others) the language of the Bedouins, or Arabic. In order to spread the Gospel, they necessarily made use of a mishmash of languages. But in an era in which Arabic was just an assembly of dialects and had no written form, the missionaries had no choice but to resort to their own literary language and their own culture; that is, to Syro-Aramaic. The result was that the language of the Koran was born as a written Arabic language, but one of Arab-Aramaic derivation.”

Q. – Do you mean that anyone who does not keep the Syro-Aramaic language in mind cannot translate and interpret the Koran correctly?

A. – “Yes. Anyone who wants to make a thorough study of the Koran must have a background in the Syro-Aramaic grammar and literature of that period, the 7th century. Only thus can he identify the original meaning of Arabic expressions whose semantic interpretation can be established definitively only by retranslating them into Syro-Aramaic.”
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According to Luxenberg the quran may actually be the result of Syrian/aramaic christians trying to invent a way to preach the bible to arabs. Oh if this turns out to be the case it would be one of the greatest ironies of human history THE WHOLE DAMN 1400 years CONFLICT MAY JUST BE A MONUMENTAL MISUNDERSTANDING :eek:

In its origin, the Koran is a Syro-Aramaic liturgical book, with hymns and extracts from Scriptures which might have been used in sacred Christian services. In the second place, one may see in the Koran the beginning of a preaching directed toward transmitting the belief in the Sacred Scriptures to the pagans of Mecca, in the Arabic language. Its socio-political sections, which are not especially related to the original Koran, were added later in Medina. At its beginning, the Koran was not conceived as the foundation of a new religion. It presupposes belief in the Scriptures, and thus functioned merely as an inroad into Arabic society.”

Q. – To many Muslim believers, for whom the Koran is the holy book and the only truth, your conclusions could seem blasphemous. What reactions have you noticed up until now?

A. – “In Pakistan, the sale of the edition of ‘Newsweek’ that contained an article on my book was banned. Otherwise, I must say that, in my encounters with Muslims, I have not noticed any hostile attitudes. On the contrary, they have appreciated the commitment of a non-Muslim to studies aimed at an objective comprehension of their sacred text. My work could be judged as blasphemous only by those who decide to cling to errors in the interpretation of the word of God. But in the Koran it is written, ‘No one can bring to the right way those whom God induces to error.’”
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pAth said:
My main point (even though I know it often comes across as bashing islam) is that religious dogma of any kind is a very slippery slope that tends to separate the infidels from the chosen people.
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my my...Your point will soon grow to engulf Islam entirely if it continues like this. You mst admit you are "specialized" in Islam.
 
Bruce Wayne said:
my my...Your point will soon grow to engulf Islam entirely if it continues like this. You mst admit you are "specialized" in Islam.
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I swifted through th first two articles. And me Bucko, :)D), you are on very shaky grounds. I mean seismicaly shaky... :p

:m:
 
What would happen if a muslim were to claim that the quran is not the unaltered word of god as originally received by Muhammed?
 
Bruce Wayne said:
I swifted through th first two articles. And me Bucko, , you are on very shaky grounds. I mean seismicaly shaky..
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Which article that I wrote is on shakey ground? ;)

I think if you read my posts I personally didn't make any claims, I simply presented some articles on the subject which I found to be of interest. The idea I find most intriguing of all is the possibility that the entire history of muslim-christian religious conflict has been a big misunderstanding. :m:
 
path said:
What would happen if a muslim were to claim that the quran is not the unaltered word of god as originally received by Muhammed?
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Lemme! Lemme! I know that one!

Obviously, the heavens would be torn asunder and big, fat, beer-guzzling pigs would rain down unrelentingly, thus ending the world as we know it (and probably giving way to a much better one)!

Nope?

Oh, well, then I guess the poor bastard would just be considered a deviant, murtad or something and dealt with accordingly. And rightly so! I mean, is there nothing sacred anymore? The children! Think of the children!

OK, I'll shuddup now.
 
surenderer said:
Sup Path :) ,
Simply put then he wouldnt be a muslim.....peace to you]
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Kinda nips any possibility for unfettered quranic scholarship in the bud doesn't it, you tow the party line or your out of the club.
 
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