You're not allowed to carry in the UK.
Geez, criminals carry 'em, don't they?
Besides, I didn't know ToR was from the UK.
Baron Max
You're not allowed to carry in the UK.
I'm not so sure that that's even the issue, is it? At issue is what the fuck constitutes rape ...that fine line in the law. Did she give her consent, then after-the-fact, take it back? Or was there a misunderstanding due to the alcohol?
Rape is against the law. But the question is ....was it rape or not?
I'm curious, ToR, do you carry a concealed handgun? If not, why not? What excuse can you give for taking the precautions that you mentioned, yet not take the precaution of a reliable handgun?
Baron Max
...but certainly one can reduce the risk of some types.
Yep, and NOT drinking oneself into a stupor is one of those methods!
I have to admit to being a little crazy about rape ...I view it in much the same way as murder ...there simply ain't no excuse for it!
But I was also raised in an era when women were held in high regard, on high pedestals, and were to be protected and cherished at all costs. It seems that women don't want that no more, so....? I'm just an old fossil with silly ideals from a time far, far in the past.
Baron Max
Yes. I'm missing the point but you're the one attempting to lay blame on a rape victim by saying he/she should somehow protect themselves against it by not getting drunk or allowing themselves to be drugged (which to me is hilariously sad since a person is not at fault nor have they allowed someone to slip them a GHB, for example, without their knowledge or consent), dressing appropriately.... and when I mentioned your photo, it was to point out that posting yourself in your avatar can result in people attempting to track you down or even use your photo inappropriately on the internet.. etc.. hence you are hardly one to be demanding women take precautions when you fly in the opposite direction to the very same precautions you demand of other women.Bells your jealousy and interest in me is flatterring it really is, but surely you are aware that what you write is of no interest to me by now? I see you quoting me and then I move on, I find you dull, repetative and you consistently miss the point..every time, quite an achievement.
Get over me, please move on with your life.
I have the same image of you since you are so defensive of rapists and their actions and since you attempt to negate their actions by saying the woman could have prevented it by behaving or dressing differently. Funny that 'huh'? But I like the way you attempt to paint me as a 'rapist' when I've been one of the many who have disagreed with you and your views of women and rape victims in general. It's so unoriginal and so expected of you ToR. I did not expect anything less than you. I personally do not care where you were or what you were doing when that photo was taken. You assume that because I made an example of your image that I somehow care about you or what you were doing or even say. I can assure you that the opposite is the case. You could post an image of a turd in a toilet and it would be as interesting as the current image you have now.I love the image you have created for yourself with my avatar, imagining me naked are you? Quite the pervert aren't you. Those familiar with that pic know that the neck is all you see and I am clothed to my ankles.
Funny that you describe me the way a rapist describes his victim. SHE who is wearing skimpy clothes and looks drunk or drugged' when the reality is I am sitting on my lounge floor amongst my kids toys, wearing a summer top and ankle length skirt, it is daytime and I am smiling at my 4 yr old who took the picture.
You have the mind of a rapist
Oohhh beyond contempt? Damn, here I thought I was lower than that. I'd suggest you look at your attitude towards rape victims and rapists in general before you accuse anyone of having a dirty or filthy mind. Again, attempting to say I'm as bad as a rapist because I think that there is never a justification for rape, nor is there a mitigating factor in rape? Heh..I had you on ignore as you are beyond contempt, I wondered if you had improved, but I see you have not. Don't waste your time (though I know you will) defending yourself. Your filthy mind is here for all to see. Back on ignore you go.
You're right, there is no excuse for rape. That's what I and several others have been saying all along. But the women of your era and the women of today are the same and vastly different. Yes women still want to be cherished and respected. Just because she has a few drinks and gets drunk does not make her any less a person who should be respected or any less a woman who should not be taken advantage of or raped. The women of your era were more restricted in what they said, did, dressed. Lets face it Baron, women of the past were not free to be who they were. Many could not work in the field they chose to, and were restricted to more 'appropriate' employment such as nursing or teaching. Many had no rights under the law or in society. But just because the era has changed and women have more rights than in the past does not mean that they should be viewed as being less worthy of respect or being cherished and protected. Women in the past had the right to not be raped just as women of today have the right to not be raped.Baron Max said:I have to admit to being a little crazy about rape ...I view it in much the same way as murder ...there simply ain't no excuse for it!
But I was also raised in an era when women were held in high regard, on high pedestals, and were to be protected and cherished at all costs. It seems that women don't want that no more, so....? I'm just an old fossil with silly ideals from a time far, far in the past.
Just incase there are people still missing the point
At no point have I said women deserve to be raped infact I have repeated OVER AND OVER they do not. Neither did I say women can prevent ALL types of rape by doing xyz.
I will repeat WHAT I said for those who seem to just like writing crap to themselves.
there is no justification for rape, but the fact is some things put you more at risk than other things. I myself take precautions daily to avoid rape, they will not succeed in all types of rape but in some! I do not flirt I do not wear revealing clothes and I do not get drunk to the point of making poor choices. I don't walk alone at night. I don't accept drinks from strangers and I don't let men force alcohol down my throat. I no how to say 'no'. I choose my friends carefully.
I also look before I cross the road
I wear a seat belt
I lock my front door at night
I use an umbrella
I wear a coat in winter
I avoid treading on glass etc
We take precautions against the harsh realities of life, this is no different.
Leaving my door unlocked does not mean I asked to be be burgled or that I deserved it. But it does mean I placed myself at higher risk of being burgled.
Yes burglars can kick the door down...blah blah...missing the point.....blah blah.
As an 18yr old I accepted a drink from a stranger at a party, it had drugs in it designed to get me 'horny'. I ended up in hospital. I have been followed, flashed at, pawed at. I have been in a situation where the intention was to 'gang rape ' me and I have rescued someone from an attempted gang rape in progress. Somethings can't be avoided but some things can. I could have avoided the drugged drink for starters.
Wearing slutty clothes as a naive teenager taught me that dressing 'that' way only attracted a certain type of attention. The older you get the wiser some of us become. Others not so it seems.
How many times can you actually keep editing your posts? lol..Members please note:
Despite all I written to the contrary Bells keeps posting that I support rapists and justify rape. I don't. You won't find a single (in context) post from me where I do this.
She is either VERY stupid to keep missing the fact that I don't justify rape, or she thinks by repeating lies about my expressed views that she can arouse animosity towards me as a result. Juvenile I know.
*Sigh*.. this is getting boring.. and I know boring since I'm stuck in bedrest for god knows how long.Please disregard her posts that allege to reply to things I have said as I have said nothing with regard to supporting or defending rapists.
The dress thing came up as I myself have exprience of how clothing affects males behaviour thus to me it is logical to avoid mini skirts and alcohol as the wrong type of men will see it as a beacon, this is good advice nothing more than that, no advocation or justification for rape stated or intended.
You say that dress is not a "licence for rape", however you then mitigate this by saying the big 'but' where you claim that women who don't want to be viewed as "easy lays" should dress accordingly. There is no 'but' in rape, just as there is never a mitigating factor in rape.Theoryofrelativity said:men view women in skimpy clothing as 'easy lays, so if you do not wish to be seen as such do not dress as such. It is all very well asserting a right to dress how we please but denying the effect it has on others is ignorance. BUt still no licence for rape.
Link
And those who make such false allegations deserve to go to jail, because it does destroy the lives of the victim (in this case the victim being a man who is falsely accused). But just as there are no laws to protect a person from rape, there are no laws to protect a person from being falsely accused. The only law that exists is to punish the person who is caught making such an allegation and like rape laws, they are meant to serve as a deterrent. But like laws dealing with rape, it doesn't always mean justice to the falsely accused, just as a true rapist can sometimes walk free. People are falsely accused of all sorts of crimes and personally it's disgusting that it happens and sadly some are convicted and jailed or even executed even if he/she is innocent of the crime they are accused of. The only way that could ever come to fruition is if we abolish all rape laws and treat all rape claims as being false.the topic being FALSE rape allegations
NOT rapists,
but FALSE allegations made against men who genuinely believed the female due to her conduct and language to be consenting to sex.
Yes women still want to be cherished and respected. Just because she has a few drinks and gets drunk does not make her any less a person who should be respected or any less a woman....
But just because the era has changed and women have more rights than in the past does not mean that they should be viewed as being less worthy of respect or being cherished and protected.
I like Tor more than Bells. Well, I haven't actually seen Bell's picture yet. But until I see Bell's picture, I like Tor more.
So you judge people by that silly little box over their names?
I guess that means that you're a fuckin' banana???
Baron Max
Women in your time got drunk in their own homes or just in the company they kept, since most bars would never serve a woman in the first place. Or women had their own rooms in bars where they were served the more civilised drinks such as ice tea and the like. Women in your day were expected to be all "sugar n' spice n' everything nice" out in public but whores and sluts at home. If they weren't, men went to prostitutes for the 'whoring and the slutting' or they'd be beaten and raped.Hmm, I don't know 'bout that!? Women in my time would never have considered getting drunk and acting like women of today ...so why should we respect drunks for acting like fuckin' whores and sluts?
No, I don't say they should be raped, but why should I or anyone come to their rescue when they act like someone who doesn't deserve any respect or protection?
Women were (note the past tense) sugar n' spice n' everything nice ...except when they act like drunken whores and sluts. Then.....?
So because women have equal rights, they are less deserving of being respected or somehow 'cherished'? How so? Does one negate the other? Does the fact that a woman can now vote for example mean that she is less deserving of respect? Interesting.Bullshit! Women wanted and fought for equal rights, but now that they have it, or mostly have it, they do nothing but complain that men don't treat them with respect and cherish them. Fuck! Ya' cain't have it both ways! Y'all wanted equal rights, so in reality, rape actually should only be aggravated assualt, not rape.
Meh I'm bored and facing forced bedrest at the moment. Teasing her amuses me because she gets so riled up and so defensive and it's all so predictable. Especially when she starts writing in bigger bold letters. But shhhh.. she's trying to win a popularity contest that only she is contesting in and she now appears to be getting a tad paranoid that I am trying to make others hate her.. it's quite funny actually .. plus it makes me laugh how she keeps changing her posts when her paranoia is highlighted..PS - Bells, you and ToR should quit this bickering between yourselves ...it's unbecoming of women who should be cherished and respected and protected.
Ask her kindly enough and be 'nice and sweet' and she might post some pics a la Xev and the dagger..Roman said:I like Tor more than Bells. Well, I haven't actually seen Bell's picture yet.
But until I see Bell's picture, I like Tor more.
Which would make me an arse. Appropriate non?So you judge people by that silly little box over their names?
I guess that means that you're a fuckin' banana???
Baron Max
Of course I do. I'm a Libertarian, forgive me if I didn't make myself clear. I'm opposed to using new laws as an easy way to cure social ills. Laws are inflexible, the products of hysteria and compromise, and enforced by government employees, for the goddess's sake. They almost always cause a great deal of harm and frequently cause more harm than good.Theoryofrelativity said:Fraggle, this new law that is being propsed in the UK will make the issue of 'consent' ambiguous and worse 'subject to change' after the event has taken place. This is the concern here, women 'consenting' to sex, but afterwards denying informed consent due to their alcohol consumtion. Do you not see any problems with this?
I don't think the Baron is quite that old. You're talking about the early 1900s. Prohibition changed all that. As my mother said, "The worst thing about Prohibition is that it got women going to bars, because in America it's always fashionable to break the law."Women in your [Baron Max} time got drunk in their own homes or just in the company they kept, since most bars would never serve a woman in the first place. Or women had their own rooms in bars where they were served the more civilised drinks such as ice tea and the like. Women in your day were expected to be all "sugar n' spice n' everything nice" out in public but whores and sluts at home. If they weren't, men went to prostitutes for the 'whoring and the slutting' or they'd be beaten and raped.
At issue is what the fuck constitutes rape ...that fine line in the law. Did she give her consent, then after-the-fact, take it back? Or was there a misunderstanding due to the alcohol?
Rape is against the law. But the question is ....was it rape or not?
I have to admit to being a little crazy about rape ...I view it in much the same way as murder ...there simply ain't no excuse for it!
But I was also raised in an era when women were held in high regard, on high pedestals, and were to be protected and cherished at all costs. It seems that women don't want that no more, so....? I'm just an old fossil with silly ideals from a time far, far in the past.
Hmm, I don't know 'bout that!? Women in my time would never have considered getting drunk...
Women were (note the past tense) sugar n' spice n' everything nice ...except when they act like drunken whores and sluts. Then.....?
Y'all wanted equal rights, so in reality, rape actually should only be aggravated assualt, not rape.
PJ
promiscuous women do care if they are raped, it is no different. They have been violated, possibly dragged off the street by a stranger at knife point, forced to fulfill vile acts that they do not consent to. Why do you think they would not care? Promiscuous women select their sexual partners, there is an attraction, they consent and are prepared for the act, contraception, condom, etc. Rape is no less damaging to a promiscuous woman than not, hence the yrs of therapy and counselling that follow. This is not a myth PJ it is reality.
There is also no such thing as non violent rape, if the woman is not sexually
aroused, penetration hurts a lot, hence they can tell if a woman is raped generally by the 'damage' that occurs internally and the bruising etc. Doctors find smear testing very difficult on tense women for this very reason. If the woman is tense, the instrument which is not as wide as a cock hurts the female much. The Dr can't get it in. Fact not fiction PJ.
The act of sex requires relaxation in order to be comfortable, with a hysterical and frightened female fearing for her life (I think fearing for ones life is reason enough to care..don't you PJ?) the muscles of the viginal wall will be very tense, almost impenetrable, hence harm occurs when forced entry takes place.
I would rather be beaten PJ than raped. Thus violence towards me is preferable. Women do not deem rape lightly just because they enjoy consenting sex with multiple partners.
I understand this is hard for men to understand, afterall you have to be a woman to know what it feels like to be a woman. Men and women are not the same. I ask you though to consider rape for what it is, it is not SEX, it is a violent assault on the womans most intimate part of the body. The rest of the body may be unharmed but her vagina has been assaulted. Thus she CARES PJ.
She will also wonder if she was to blame somehow, be afraid to go outdoors for fear of recurrance, possibley becoming agrophobic. It will affect future sexual relations as the act of sex will remind her of the assault. She may never live a normal life again. Fact not fiction PJ. Women who are raped regardless of their sexual nature care. The proof is in the fact that not a single woman raped has ever said, they Do not care...ever.
PJ
Would you not find a strange and threatening man forcing his cock into your mouth and anus worse than a punch on the nose?
It is worse for many reasons PJ, one because of the associations with that area which we are indoctrinated with since birth. Also because unlike a punch on the nose, intercourse within a relationship is normal, thus this violent assault may disrupt the womans ongoing sexual life for reasons already stated. This will thus affect her relationship with her partner, have ramifications for any children they share (if the parents separate etc) so on and so forth.
Also the pain could be potentially worse than that of a beating.
As a man you cannot comprehend the pain sensors in that area as you do not possess them.
Regarding vile acts which you say promiscuous women undertake anyway. They are not VILE acts PJ if consentual, they are vile when not consentual and forced. Unless you consider blow jobs and intercourse vile acts when in the context of consenting sex?
However I see you are anti rape, what is becoming clear though in your posts is your deep loathing and lack of respect for promiscuous women. Life experience may be responsible for this attitude so I shall not pass judgement but I will say a promiscuous woman is no more loathesome than a promiscuous male afterall the promiscuous woman is having sex with someone is she not?
Damn good post, ToR.
Thankyou
meanwhile I have this to add
I have not read all this thread but I note clothing issues come up. Men desire women (straight ones) regardless of what they wear but
in this culture men think that women in sexy/scant clothing are deliberately dressed that way to invite male sexual attention. I am not going to go into detail about this misconception (though in some cases no doubt it is correct) but it is a misconception.
Now I do not critisise men for this misconception. The ways of women are indeed strange and complex in these matters.
But while women should be able to dress how they please, the reality is certain dress will attract certain attention, not because they LOOK more attractive BUT because they look more AVAILABLE. Sexually available.
This is the point I believe PJ was trying to make but got jumped on.
Personal example re me:
I was a virgin until I was 19yrs old and was in a very well established relationship before I gave it up, thus I was not a slag and not easy.
BUT this did not stop me from dressing (a short phase) like (I can now describe it this way as I am older and can SEE better) a hooker at age 17.
I could not understand that while my dowdy mate got asked on dates, I seemed to attract more 'lewd' offers (which I declined) I was naive, totally inexperienced with males and just did not know what I know now basically. I wanted to look attractive, I thought I did. I did, BUT I looked TOO sexually provocative and as such attracted (all be it unawares) the wrong type of attention.
Until men become aware (believe) that clothing/lack of (in a females mind) is not necc. intended to illicit a sexual response from men (unless in the bedroom or by hookers) women dressed with less will continue to attract a type of attention they may not desire.
Now I only dress sexily when out with my boyfriend and nice but conservative the rest of the time. If I have a night out with a female friend, I may dress more sexily but not so much that I look like I am deliberately inviting sexual attention. I am aware basically of the messages a man may misread from my outfit!
Rape of any female in any state of dress is inexcusable,[/COLOR] but it is a matter of responsibility that men and women are educated to understand each others thought processes in matters that may endanger them or lead them to false assumptions.
You did not advise.Accusing someone of being responsible for rape becuase they advise of precautions in HIGH risk sitautions is like accusing someone of killing the driver involved in a car crash becuase you told them to wear a seat belt! Stupidity beyond belief.
I write huge lengthy posts to PJ, Baron, TW Scott, ermm just about all my posts are lengthy. Doesn't mean that I am interested in them or you. Hell you better hope Tiassa never replies to one of your posts. You're going to think he's about to propose to you.Also writing HUGE lengthy posts to one and about one poster doesn't do much to reinforce the view that you aren't interested in them, rather the opposite. This remains amusing. Again illustrates great stupidity.
Precious..You let your personal feelings allow you to read selectively, misquote, misrepresent and make personal insults and adhom all of which makes you no better than any other moron responsible for a miscarriage of justice.
I'd say 'pot.. kettle.. black' but it's just too obvious.ToR said:I am reposting this for the idiots that keep posting that I justify rape and support rapists.
---------------------------------------------
Stupidity beyond belief.
---------------------------------------------
Again illustrates great stupidity.
........
I have no problem with people who deliberately go out with the plan to get stinking drunk and have unprotected sex with strangers. But some people get more drunk than they intend to and are easily mistaken for one of the former group and treated as such. If that happens I'm not sure it's the government's duty to in essence protect them from their own behavior and allow them to complain about it afterwards. Whenever you try to protect people from the consequences of doing stupid shit the results are people doing more stupid shit because you told them it was going to be safer from now on.
.