Should it be illegal to have sex with a woman under the influence of alcohol

[James R]

Baron Max:

Geez, James, if college-aged kids don't know that rape is wrong, then a fuckin' little classroom preaching ain't gonna' do no fuckin' good!!

It's not that they don't know that rape is wrong. It is that they don't know what rape is.

Look at my "Attitudes to rape" thread. There are many people even on this forum who don't know what does and does not constitute rape.

In terms of explaining what rape is or is not, "classroom preaching", as you put, will do a lot of "fuckin' good", as you put it.

Males learn the power over females very early in life ...some learn that women are to be protected and cared for; some learn that women are nothing but fuck-toys. That learning is so early that my guess is that "education" ain't gonna' change nothin'.

You contradict yourself. You start by saying that people learn things, then you say they don't learn things. Obviously, you're confused.

 

[Roman]

Obviously, your college's definition of rape is not totally in accord with the usual definition in the legal system.

However, I must say that your college's approach to this issue in terms of educating young males seems to have a lot going for it. At some stage, it is good for young men to learn that although college can sometimes feel like a separate world, when they leave their actions in the "real world" will often have consequences. They will no longer be treated with kid gloves by the adult legal system. Therefore, it is a good idea to get used to that, before they really get themselves into serious trouble.

Uh, if they're not actually committing any crimes, why should the college punish them? In the real world, the adult legal system would (and does) dismiss such cases, as they're not in the wrong.

 

[James R]

Colleges and other places of education are supposed to be in the business of moral education as well as other kinds of education.

Having said that, I take you point and I agree to some extent. But take a look. You said:

They can be put on probation, forced to take rape education classes, suspended or even expelled.

A rape education class never hurt anyone. Sounds like a good idea to me.

As for probation, suspension and expulsion, this is obviously a matter for the college. Colleges have a right to set their own policies. Students who come to colleges sign up to obey certain rules and conform to certain standards of expected behaviour. They make a contract with the college. If they break that, why on earth shouldn't the college take action? It's not as if the students don't know the potential consequences of their actions in advance, is it?

 

[Roman]

Obviously you are of the primitive opinion that women aren't responsible for their own sexuality.

 

[James R]

Obviously you are of the primitive opinion that women aren't responsible for their own sexuality.

I don't know where you got that idea from.

I do think, however, that men are responsible for their behaviour. Don't you?

 

[Boss Foxx]

Maybe my opinion is a bit blunt, but if someone goes and gets themselves willingly shit-faced drunk then they should still be held accountable for their actions. I am sick and tired of hearing people use "But I was drunk" as an excuse for bad behavior. If a girl... or even a guy for that matter... gets drunk and does something they regret after their hangover, why should they be given some kind of repreive for what they've done?

 

[Roman]

Maybe my opinion is a bit blunt, but if someone goes and gets themselves willingly shit-faced drunk then they should still be held accountable for their actions. I am sick and tired of hearing people use "But I was drunk" as an excuse for bad behavior. If a girl... or even a guy for that matter... gets drunk and does something they regret after their hangover, why should they be given some kind of repreive for what they've done?

And for that matter, why should someone else be blamed for your judgement lapse?

 

[Athelwulf]

Just so I know, are we talking about illegalizing something in the interest of getting rid of the chance of rape?

 

[invert_nexus]

Actually, if this law were passed, it would increase the number of rapes, wouldn't it? By definition?

 

[James R]

If a girl... or even a guy for that matter... gets drunk and does something they regret after their hangover, why should they be given some kind of repreive for what they've done?

What about where somebody deliberately sets out to get somebody else drunk in order to have sex with them?

What is the difference between date rape using a date rape drug and date rape using alcohol as the drug? Why the double standard?

 

[mountainhare]

James R:

What is the difference between date rape using a date rape drug and date rape using alcohol as the drug? Why the double standard?

Because a date rape drug is slipped into a woman's drink without her knowledge. A woman knowingly consumes alcohol. There is an obvious difference.

 

[TimeTraveler]

NOTE: Women or men clearly incapacitated, ie staggerring, slurring speach, unconscious etc are not included in this debate as they are clearly unable to make an informed decision and thus no one should approach them for sex or accept their request for sex.

SO Should it be illegal to have sex with a woman under the influence of alcohol ?

well should it?

bearing in mind she can soon accuse you of rape if you do

The law may soon change to enable women who 'consent' to sex while drunk, to claim it was uninformed consent as they were drunk and cry 'rape'.

http://www.feminist.org/news/newsbyte/uswirestory.asp?ID=9932

"UK Proposes Changes in Rape Laws
The United Kingdom is considering new legislation that would make it easier to convict rapists, even if the victim was intoxicated at the time of the rape. The proposed law is an effort to address “non-stranger” rapes, also known as date rapes, where establishing consent and an intoxicated person’s ability to grant consent is crucial, Times Online reports. According to Solicitor General Mike O’Brien, the law is also necessary to target rapists who deliberately get their victims drunk in order to force sex upon them, according to This Is London.

Currently, UK law holds that an intoxicated woman is able to give consent as long as she is still conscious. Alcohol consumption is a major impediment to the successful prosecution of a rapist; according to The Observer, the Crown Prosecution Service often advises women who were drunk at the time of their rape not to bring their cases to court because they have little chance of being believed by a jury. Only 12 percent of reported rape cases actually go to court, and about 5 percent of alleged rapists are convicted in the UK, Times Online reports. "
and
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2006/10/23/1161455665504.html

1)
Should the law make the matter clearer and make it illegal, to protect the male from rape charges and to discourage binge drinking in females.

Most first time sexual encounters with new partners, happen these days while under the under the influence of alcohol. Yet rarely does it result in a rape charge. I know many women who get drunk to the point of not recalling details afterwards and who become sexual predators when drunk. They do not cry rape when they regret their evenings antics, but if they could under possible new laws would they? Presently they of course do not feel they were 'raped' but that may change if the law changes, as things often do.


Controversial

This goes for men too, women can coax a drunk man into sex very easily, married men may for example may not actively seek other women, but may be caught by a predatory female while he is drunk and find his whole marriage in trouble afterwards.

2) Should he also be able to cry 'rape' ? Afterall he was taken advantage of while drunk? Would his wife accept he was 'raped' under these circumstances.

3) Will the new rules reflect both genders having sex while drunk or only women?

4) Should sex while drunk/drinking alcohol be illegal for everyone?

5) How drunk is too drunk to make an informed choice? Will we be educated in 'observing the signs'? What signs mean the line has been crossed for informed consent and uninformed consent?

When my bf is drunk, he tells me, I can't tell myself. Very little of his outward behaviour changes. The same re myself. How are people to judge this to protect themselves from rape charges? Should we just make sex while drinking alcohol illegal?

6) While telling men not to have sex with drunk women should we not also be diuscouraging binge drinking in women, to ensure they are not at risk?

The links show that rape cases reports are increasing but failing in prosecution as the female bringing the charges was drunk and can't recall what she said etc. Thus it is evident that drunk women are MORE at risk than none drunk women and are now in the highest catagory for rape.

Note: I do NOT support making it illegal to have sex with someone under the influence of alcohol remotely, just wonder where the law will go next with the rape and alcohol thing.

It IS illegal to have sex with a woman under the influence of alcohol. This is why, it's always a bad idea to be intoxicated around a woman or women.

It's simple, if you are going to have sex with a person, do it properly, no drugs, no alcohol, no backwards bullshit, just be upfront and go to a hotel, like proper adults.

If this is your partner, then go to their house. Don't drink anything, don't do any sorta drugs, and if you eat, eat at a resturant, not at their house.

Rape is always possible, but it's up to both adults to minimize their chance of it. The best way to do that is to not be intoxicated, and not put yourself in stupid situations where you can't think straight.

 

[TimeTraveler]

James R:

Because a date rape drug is slipped into a woman's drink without her knowledge. A woman knowingly consumes alcohol. There is an obvious difference.

Exactly, this is why you should never have sex with a drunk woman. I mean teenagers do that stupid shit, but a fully grown adult should know better than to do something that stupid.

 

[TimeTraveler]

Baron Max:



It's not that they don't know that rape is wrong. It is that they don't know what rape is.

Look at my "Attitudes to rape" thread. There are many people even on this forum who don't know what does and does not constitute rape.

In terms of explaining what rape is or is not, "classroom preaching", as you put, will do a lot of "fuckin' good", as you put it.



You contradict yourself. You start by saying that people learn things, then you say they don't learn things. Obviously, you're confused.

Moral education SHOULD be taught in school, through GENDER education. Our schools go out of their way to teach sex education, and math, but don't do anything to teach gender education or gender psychology, so men don't even know how women see the world, yet they expect to have intimacy with them?

Women are in constant fear of being raped, it's near paranoia for women, and it's one of the worst things a man can do to a woman if you understand the female psyche.

I'm not an expert on women, but I understand women enough to know that women want to feel safe around men, and that it's absolutely wrong to treat a woman in a way which prevents her from being able to feel safe. She should feel safe around you at all times, and if she does not, then perhaps something is wrong with you.

I think if this law passes, and it's illegal to have sex with an intoxicated person, with no seperation between the gender, and with automatic sentences, then I'm all for it. This would prevent a lot of intoxicated people from doing things they regret, as most rapes DO include intoxication.

If I'm in a situation where theres drugs all around me, and women, I'm not going to feel comfortable. I'm not going to feel comfortable in a situation where there is so much uncertainty. Men should drink and be intoxicated around each other, not with their wives and girlfriends. Men should be intoxicated with their friends, and if a man has a female friend, he should never be intoxicated with her, it's generally a bad idea.

Why? because people do stupid shit while intoxicated. The female might get drunk and kiss you, then what? It's better to know that any affection you recieve was sober and deliberate, than to recieve a drunken kiss and both of you be embarassed about it the next day.

 

[TimeTraveler]

What about where somebody deliberately sets out to get somebody else drunk in order to have sex with them?

What is the difference between date rape using a date rape drug and date rape using alcohol as the drug? Why the double standard?

There is no difference. That's why, if you plan to or want to have sex with a woman, NEVER DRINK WITH HER.

In fact, don't do drugs with a woman, period, don't drink with women, don't smoke weed with women, don't use meth with women, and certainly don't use Xtacy. If you do drink, make sure it's a glass of wine with dinner, in a resturant, where the waiter serves her, don't be the guy who buys the woman a drink in a bar and then takes her home.

 

[Bells]

James R:

Because a date rape drug is slipped into a woman's drink without her knowledge. A woman knowingly consumes alcohol. There is an obvious difference.

Is there? If a woman is out with friends, who she trusts and would not think would set out to harm her, why should she feel wary if one of them decides to get her drunk to rape her later? Topping up a person's drink or giving them stronger drinks without their knowledge can and is just as bad. Simply repeatedly shouting them drinks with the bid of raping them when they are drunk is just as bad. And in most cases, the victim trusts their friends enough to never feel any doubt about getting drunk around said friend. That's the thing so many do not realise. Date rape usually occurs where the victim knows the assailant. Hence why its called 'date rape'. Many victims did not think that their friends, partners, etc, could do something like that so had no reason to fear getting drunk when out with them. Do you feel doubtful of your friend's integrity when you're out with them? Should we now all start to not trust anyone at all?

There is still this onus to blame the victim instead of looking at the actions of the rapist. Why should the victim distrust friends, partners, family, etc? Why not blame the bad behaviour on the rapist, where the full blame should lie, instead of trying to mitigate the rapists actions by saying the victim should simply not have been drunk? Why do so many people feel the need to excuse the rapist's behaviour? Is it now a crime to be out and have a few drinks with friends and possibly get drunk, just in case one of our friends cant be trusted, so we're at fault for their actions against us? That's what it comes down to in the end. Is it the victims fault that they are raped? Do they somehow deserve it because they were drunk in the first place? Because if you think that any person is at fault for a crime such as rape or sexual assault that is committed against them or that they somehow deserve it, then you are absolving the rapist of all blame and attributing reason for his appalling behaviour. Ask yourself, if someone did this to your child, sibbling, etc, would you blame your loved one by telling them they should have known better? Or would you look at the rapist as the one at fault? Would you sell out your loved one by removing some guilt and blame from the rapist and placing it on said loved one's head?

 

[S.A.M.]

Would you sell out your loved one by removing some guilt and blame from the rapist and placing it on said loved one's head?

Unfortunately Bells this is not all that uncommon either.

 

[Roman]

Is there? If a woman is out with friends, who she trusts and would not think would set out to harm her, why should she feel wary if one of them decides to get her drunk to rape her later? Topping up a person's drink or giving them stronger drinks without their knowledge can and is just as bad. Simply repeatedly shouting them drinks with the bid of raping them when they are drunk is just as bad. And in most cases, the victim trusts their friends enough to never feel any doubt about getting drunk around said friend. That's the thing so many do not realise. Date rape usually occurs where the victim knows the assailant. Hence why its called 'date rape'. Many victims did not think that their friends, partners, etc, could do something like that so had no reason to fear getting drunk when out with them. Do you feel doubtful of your friend's integrity when you're out with them? Should we now all start to not trust anyone at all?

There is still this onus to blame the victim instead of looking at the actions of the rapist. Why should the victim distrust friends, partners, family, etc? Why not blame the bad behaviour on the rapist, where the full blame should lie, instead of trying to mitigate the rapists actions by saying the victim should simply not have been drunk? Why do so many people feel the need to excuse the rapist's behaviour? Is it now a crime to be out and have a few drinks with friends and possibly get drunk, just in case one of our friends cant be trusted, so we're at fault for their actions against us? That's what it comes down to in the end. Is it the victims fault that they are raped? Do they somehow deserve it because they were drunk in the first place? Because if you think that any person is at fault for a crime such as rape or sexual assault that is committed against them or that they somehow deserve it, then you are absolving the rapist of all blame and attributing reason for his appalling behaviour. Ask yourself, if someone did this to your child, sibbling, etc, would you blame your loved one by telling them they should have known better? Or would you look at the rapist as the one at fault? Would you sell out your loved one by removing some guilt and blame from the rapist and placing it on said loved one's head?

So are you saying women aren't repsonsible for themselves when they drink? That they need men to make special "no drinking" laws just for them?

 

[Baron Max]

So are you saying women aren't repsonsible for themselves when they drink? That they need men to make special "no drinking" laws just for them?

Yep, that's exactly what she's saying. And worse, she expects special treatment for women under the law, too. Oh, well, so much for women's equality, huh?

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

Yep, that's exactly what she's saying. And worse, she expects special treatment for women under the law, too. Oh, well, so much for women's equality, huh?

Baron Max

Could be a passed out boy that gets raped by a man friend he trusted too.