the above situation is not rape. she 'consented' when kissing and 'engaging in acts of seduction'.
the key word here is 'mutually'.
Should it be illegal to have sex with a woman under the influence of alcohol
- Thread starter Theoryofrelativity
- Start date
the key word here is 'mutually'.
She is intoxicated, it's rape.
Never have sex with an intoxicated person. In fact, don't allow yourself to be in that situation or in that fucked up environment where everyone is acting stupid.
If you have sex with a person, do it in a very deliberate way, no drugs or alcohol.
if both parties tell the truth she will never prove rape in a court of law.
And that's what it comes down to. Let the jury weigh the evidence, decide who's telling the truth and who's lying, and act accordingly. It has to be recognised that some women do falsely cry rape, that some men do take advantage of women who are drunk, and that some women do have consensual sex only to decide that they were raped in the morning. The commonsense rule is, as TimeTraveler has already said: don't have sex with someone you don't know very well unless you're both sober enough to know what you're doing. Violate this unwritten law and there may be consequences. Tough shit. Think it through more carefully next time.
thinking carefully isn't something that happens when drunk, bearing in mind the male is also drunk.
FACT men and women get drunk
FACT men and women hook up with each other for first time and may have sex - BOTH DRUNK- both consenting
NOTE: law may change to permit women to cry rape on grounds she was dunk
in my opinion the best defence for a male in this situation is claim HE WAS RAPED by her while HE was drunk. What is the difference, if they are both drunk and BOTH consenting. WHY is the DRUNK male supposed to have more awareness of the situation that the drunk female?
For those of you still missing the point, this is about PROTECTING MEN from a FALSE allegation of rape
how can we protect them if the law changes?
how can we protect them if the law changes?
I agree that there's a bias towards the protection of the woman in these new proposals. But that's because the vast majority of rapes are of women by men, and because instances of men getting women drunk and raping them are increasing (or.. reports of them are increasing). I recognise that it presents additional problems for men but it isn't for me to decide the rights and wrongs of the proposals - that's for the legal experts. My responsibility is to recognise that having sex with strangers whilst drunk is a potential minefield, and to avoid doing so. My responsibility is also to deal with any consequences that result from forgetting or ignoring my own good advice.
Red,
A man cannot get a woman drunk unless he is holding her by the neck and forcing the alcohol down her throat. At any time she can refuse the drink. It is her choice not to. She is responsible for getting drunk no one else.
I have had pals buy me drinks when I have refused (female) them in advance, it was THEN my choice as to whether I drank them or not. MINE. I am responsible for the amount of alcohol I consume no one else.
If rape re alcohol consumption is on the increase the message must go out, REDUCE the risk of rape by reducing the amount of alochol you consume. Do not allow strangers to ply you with alcohol or drugs.
If you can't handle alcohol do NOT drink, if you can't recall events after consumtpion, do not drink.
Denying the reality of life and taking NO precautions on the grounds of 'it's our right to dress and behave as we like' is pure naivity and NOT helpful.
Nothing else in life works on that basis and this is no different.
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Bells
Staff member
Do you have any idea of how difficult it is to prove a rape case? Any at all? Why do you think so many never result in a conviction, even when the woman was beaten and then raped and sodomised, etc? Why do you think so many people (yes both men and women) who are raped never report it? Because of the belief that others will think they are lying. Yes some lie and if they do and are caught out, and in many instances they are, they end up facing jail.
Even with DNA, bruising, tearing, etc, in many instances of rape allegations, it ends up being a case of 'he says she says' and in most of those cases, it never gets to court and is basically thrown out. If the victim is bruised or battered, the accused claims that the victim wanted it that way and will show some bruises on their person to attempt to explain away that fact. If the marks on the accused's body prove to be defensive wounds, then the victim has a chance that the rapist gets charged and it might go to trial. In cases of date rape, unless a drug was used or the victim is proven to have been drugged by a date rape drug such as GHB, prosecutors and police have a higher chance of laying a charge against the individual since it shows a high level of premeditation and an intent to rape the victim. In instances where alcohol is used, it's damn hard to prove that it was rape. Again it comes down to the matter of 'he said she said' and even in instances where the victim was raped, it might not make it to court and the rapist walks to rape another day. Witnesses are interviewed and from that a general picture can be drawn as to whether the victim had consented or would have consented to sex had he/she been sober. And even if all evidence point to lack of consent, the matter of the 'he said she said' case, it does not get tried. In the majority of instances, the rape did occur and the victim ends up feeling further victimised by the legal system that is meant to be there to protect them.
It's easier sometimes to prove that someone was lying about being raped, than it is to prove that someone was raped in a court of law, and in cases where the victim is truly a rape victim, well it doesn't take a genius to figure out how badly it can affect them.
As to the law changing to how you are saying, I really do not see how it can be policed. I don't understand why you have applied it only to women as men are just as likely to be raped when drunk. But again, such a law as proposed by you could never be policed. Hell the current rape laws that exist can not always be policed. Rapes will continue to occur and at times false allegations will keep happening, ruining the victim's (in the case of a false allegation, that is the accused's) life, just as a rape ruins that victim's life. But the stringent application of the rules and the law are meant to protect the falsely accused from such an event, but just as rapists walk free, some who are falsely accused do sometimes slip by and are sadly jailed. Bad applications of the law goes both ways. Rapists walk free and those who are innocent are somtimes jailed. It's a sad fact of life and one that haunts most lawyers who work within the criminal justice system.
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
Laws are clumsy. They rarely accomplish as much good as their proponents expect, and they usually cause great harm and injustice along the way.
If only we could all just be a little more decent and responsible. Haven't most of us men, and nowadays many of the women, found ourselves in a compromising position with someone we just met, or don't know very well, in which a fair amount of alcohol is involved, wondering whether the passion we're seeing is genuine?
Do we have to give in to our baser instincts and just go ahead with it? Are we so hard up for sex that this is how we get it? Do we already have our excuse laid out for the morning after, "Sorry honey I was so drunk I don't know what came over me"? If you're both that plastered is either of you total strangers going to remember to use a condom? Ever wonder whom he or she was doing the same thing with last night? Yeah kids, we're 25 years into the AIDS Era.
If the person is just lying there in a stupor with a high enough BAC to survive a snowstorm and you have to do all the undressing, then maybe you're being an asshole. If the other person is attacking you with equal vigor and just needs a few shots to forget about the problems at the office and have some naughty fun, then it's probably consensual sex.
If it's somewhere in between... Well some will say err on the side of caution. And others will say if you always hesitate you'll never get laid. But the point is that you are a member of the most highly intelligent species that ever walked this planet and you have a phenomenal capacity for judgment.
So just use it! If you're both too drunk to do that then you're both too goddamned drunk.
If only we could all just be a little more decent and responsible. Haven't most of us men, and nowadays many of the women, found ourselves in a compromising position with someone we just met, or don't know very well, in which a fair amount of alcohol is involved, wondering whether the passion we're seeing is genuine?
Do we have to give in to our baser instincts and just go ahead with it? Are we so hard up for sex that this is how we get it? Do we already have our excuse laid out for the morning after, "Sorry honey I was so drunk I don't know what came over me"? If you're both that plastered is either of you total strangers going to remember to use a condom? Ever wonder whom he or she was doing the same thing with last night? Yeah kids, we're 25 years into the AIDS Era.
If the person is just lying there in a stupor with a high enough BAC to survive a snowstorm and you have to do all the undressing, then maybe you're being an asshole. If the other person is attacking you with equal vigor and just needs a few shots to forget about the problems at the office and have some naughty fun, then it's probably consensual sex.
If it's somewhere in between... Well some will say err on the side of caution. And others will say if you always hesitate you'll never get laid. But the point is that you are a member of the most highly intelligent species that ever walked this planet and you have a phenomenal capacity for judgment.
So just use it! If you're both too drunk to do that then you're both too goddamned drunk.
Ahh, but, Fraggle, we also have a phenomenal capacity to justify our actions, good or bad. And as you can see, if you care to look around, we often decide to do bad according to the social standards. And please remember, your's is NOT the only standards of judgement ....tho' I'm sure that you like to think so.
Ahh, but once again you're trying to make that judgement for them! How can you not see that many people see that they were NOT too goddamned drunk to have sex ...which is why this topic came up in the first place!
Please don't presume to tell others how to act or what's good judgement, you are not the selected judge of us all ...that's an elitist standpoint, Fraggle, and you know it. You are not the one to make those judgements for everyone else.
Baron Max
Fraggle, this new law that is being propsed in the UK will make the issue of 'consent' ambiguous and worse 'subject to change' after the event has taken place.
This is the concern here, women 'consenting' to sex, but afterwards denying informed consent due to their alcohol consumtion. Do you not see any problems with this?
This is the concern here, women 'consenting' to sex, but afterwards denying informed consent due to their alcohol consumtion. Do you not see any problems with this?
Well, as I see it, that's exactly what could happen without the new law. I mean, what's changed by this new law??
In the USA, a woman can make the accusation of rape years after the fact (I think the statute of limitations is 7 years).
Baron Max
Bells
Staff member
Says she who posts a pic of herself on her avatar in a public forum looking like she might be wearing something quite skimpy (if anything at all) and revealing and also looking like she's possibly drunk or high.
I've had rape victims who've been covered from head to toe, in sweaters and long pants and in no way revealing. Now by your reckoning, they shouldn't have been raped as they took the "precautions" you seem to be advising women take. I've had rape victims who've not taken the drugs knowingly but had their drinks spiked. And you think they are somehow responsible for that? I've had victims who weren't buying or knowingly buying alcoholic drinks but had their drinks spiked with alcohol. Again, what precautions do you think they should have taken. Strange isn't it that a person can be wearing whatever and still get raped. Hell some even take precautions you've suggested and have still been raped. So should women just never leave the house?
Yes women have a right to dress as they damn well please and not be raped. Women can drink as much as they so wish and have the right to not be raped. If you are so gormless as to think that a person, be they male or female, somehow deserves to be raped because they failed to take so called "precautions" then you have missed the fact that even those who take "precautions" get raped. Do you know why? Because there are no "precautions" short of carrying a gun or mace. I was once a victim of a sexual assualt a few years ago by someone I'd considered a friend and a person I'd known for many years. He'd walked me to my car from a restaurant we were dining in because I'd left my jacket in the car. I was dressed in a knee length skirt and a long sleeve shirt, regular business clothes actually since it was a dinner with a bunch of friends after work. Now what precautions could I have taken ToR? Please enlighten me with your wisdom. I never assumed he's pose a threat to my person. I'd known him for many years. I wasn't drunk. I wasn't wearing anything revealing. So what "precautions" should I have taken? The result was that I had deep gouges on my inner thigh and he ended up with my keys jammed in his nuts and bloody pants, as well as a good stiff kick between his legs. He also ended up in jail and last I heard, had enjoyed the loving interest of an inmate. Now should I have been dressed differently? Possibly a chastity belt? Or even a mumu? What if I'd been dressed as you appear to be in your avatar? Would that have invited the rape even more?
What of a child who's raped? What precautions should they take? Should they dress differently in case someone is perverted enough to be attracted to them? Should they carry a drugs and alcohol lab in their bag to test for such substances in any drink they might have?
Should women also carry little mobile labs to test their drinks as a form of a "precaution"?
Says she who posts a pic of herself on her avatar in a public forum looking like she might be wearing something quite skimpy (if anything at all) and revealing and also looking like she's possibly drunk or high.
I've had rape victims who've been covered from head to toe, in sweaters and long pants and in no way revealing. Now by your reckoning, they shouldn't have been raped as they took the "precautions" you seem to be advising women take. I've had rape victims who've not taken the drugs knowingly but had their drinks spiked. And you think they are somehow responsible for that? I've had victims who weren't buying or knowingly buying alcoholic drinks but had their drinks spiked with alcohol. Again, what precautions do you think they should have taken. Strange isn't it that a person can be wearing whatever and still get raped. Hell some even take precautions you've suggested and have still been raped. So should women just never leave the house?
Yes women have a right to dress as they damn well please and not be raped. Women can drink as much as they so wish and have the right to not be raped. If you are so gormless as to think that a person, be they male or female, somehow deserves to be raped because they failed to take so called "precautions" then you have missed the fact that even those who take "precautions" get raped. Do you know why? Because there are no "precautions" short of carrying a gun or mace. I was once a victim of a sexual assualt a few years ago by someone I'd considered a friend and a person I'd known for many years. He'd walked me to my car from a restaurant we were dining in because I'd left my jacket in the car. I was dressed in a knee length skirt and a long sleeve shirt, regular business clothes actually since it was a dinner with a bunch of friends after work. Now what precautions could I have taken ToR? Please enlighten me with your wisdom. I never assumed he's pose a threat to my person. I'd known him for many years. I wasn't drunk. I wasn't wearing anything revealing. So what "precautions" should I have taken? The result was that I had deep gouges on my inner thigh and he ended up with my keys jammed in his nuts and bloody pants, as well as a good stiff kick between his legs. He also ended up in jail and last I heard, had enjoyed the loving interest of an inmate. Now should I have been dressed differently? Possibly a chastity belt? Or even a mumu? What if I'd been dressed as you appear to be in your avatar? Would that have invited the rape even more?
What of a child who's raped? What precautions should they take? Should they dress differently in case someone is perverted enough to be attracted to them? Should they carry a drugs and alcohol lab in their bag to test for such substances in any drink they might have?
Should women also carry little mobile labs to test their drinks as a form of a "precaution"?
Bells your jealousy and interest in me is flatterring it really is, but surely you are aware that what you write is of no interest to me by now? I see you quoting me and then I move on, I find you dull, repetative and you consistently miss the point..every time, quite an achievement.
Get over me, please move on with your life.
I read this one as I hought I'd humour you just this once
I love the image you have created for yourself with my avatar, imagining me naked are you? Quite the pervert aren't you. Those familiar with that pic know that the neck is all you see and I am clothed to my ankles.
Funny that you describe me the way a rapist describes his victim. SHE who is wearing skimpy clothes and looks drunk or drugged' when the reality is I am sitting on my lounge floor amongst my kids toys, wearing a summer top and ankle length skirt, it is daytime and I am smiling at my 4 yr old who took the picture.
You have the mind of a rapist
I had you on ignore as you are beyond contempt, I wondered if you had improved, but I see you have not. Don't waste your time (though I know you will) defending yourself. Your filthy mind is here for all to see. Back on ignore you go.
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Just incase there are people still missing the point
At no point have I said women deserve to be raped infact I have repeated OVER AND OVER they do not. Neither did I say women can prevent ALL types of rape by doing xyz.
I will repeat WHAT I said for those who seem to just like writing crap to themselves.
there is no justification for rape, but the fact is some things put you more at risk than other things. I myself take precautions daily to avoid rape, they will not succeed in all types of rape but in some! I do not flirt I do not wear revealing clothes and I do not get drunk to the point of making poor choices. I don't walk alone at night. I don't accept drinks from strangers and I don't let men force alcohol down my throat. I no how to say 'no'. I choose my friends carefully.
I also look before I cross the road
I wear a seat belt
I lock my front door at night
I use an umbrella
I wear a coat in winter
I avoid treading on glass etc
We take precautions against the harsh realities of life, this is no different.
Leaving my door unlocked does not mean I asked to be be burgled or that I deserved it. But it does mean I placed myself at higher risk of being burgled.
Yes burglars can kick the door down...blah blah...missing the point.....blah blah.
As an 18yr old I accepted a drink from a stranger at a party, it had drugs in it designed to get me 'horny'. I ended up in hospital. I have been followed, flashed at, pawed at. I have been in a situation where the intention was to 'gang rape ' me and I have rescued someone from an attempted gang rape in progress. Somethings can't be avoided but some things can. I could have avoided the drugged drink for starters.
Wearing slutty clothes as a naive teenager taught me that dressing 'that' way only attracted a certain type of attention. The older you get the wiser some of us become. Others not so it seems.
At no point have I said women deserve to be raped infact I have repeated OVER AND OVER they do not. Neither did I say women can prevent ALL types of rape by doing xyz.
I will repeat WHAT I said for those who seem to just like writing crap to themselves.
there is no justification for rape, but the fact is some things put you more at risk than other things. I myself take precautions daily to avoid rape, they will not succeed in all types of rape but in some! I do not flirt I do not wear revealing clothes and I do not get drunk to the point of making poor choices. I don't walk alone at night. I don't accept drinks from strangers and I don't let men force alcohol down my throat. I no how to say 'no'. I choose my friends carefully.
I also look before I cross the road
I wear a seat belt
I lock my front door at night
I use an umbrella
I wear a coat in winter
I avoid treading on glass etc
We take precautions against the harsh realities of life, this is no different.
Leaving my door unlocked does not mean I asked to be be burgled or that I deserved it. But it does mean I placed myself at higher risk of being burgled.
Yes burglars can kick the door down...blah blah...missing the point.....blah blah.
As an 18yr old I accepted a drink from a stranger at a party, it had drugs in it designed to get me 'horny'. I ended up in hospital. I have been followed, flashed at, pawed at. I have been in a situation where the intention was to 'gang rape ' me and I have rescued someone from an attempted gang rape in progress. Somethings can't be avoided but some things can. I could have avoided the drugged drink for starters.
Wearing slutty clothes as a naive teenager taught me that dressing 'that' way only attracted a certain type of attention. The older you get the wiser some of us become. Others not so it seems.
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I'm not so sure that that's even the issue, is it? At issue is what the fuck constitutes rape ...that fine line in the law. Did she give her consent, then after-the-fact, take it back? Or was there a misunderstanding due to the alcohol?
Rape is against the law. But the question is ....was it rape or not?
I'm curious, ToR, do you carry a concealed handgun? If not, why not? What excuse can you give for taking the precautions that you mentioned, yet not take the precaution of a reliable handgun?
Baron Max
You're not allowed to carry in the UK.