One for the theists..

[Adstar]

You don't think enough. If god is omnipotent, and omniscient then he knew how his creation would turn out. So why did he go ahead and create us ?


All Praise the Age of Reason

For the sake of those what would believe. For the sake of the angels who where tempted to follow satan in rebellion. Do you know how many angels there are?

Existence is far greater that the universe and all that is in it. Yes God knew that people would reject Him. But He is still Just because it is they who make their decision to reject Him. As long as He has been Just to ensure they have the free will to decide to accept or reject. God is not guilty for those who reject Him. They are responsible for their own response to Him.

As for thinking. When the Holy Spirit gives you wisdom you do not suffer from falling over your own thoughts,


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

I'm curious Adstar, say we have three people:

An atheist that has devoted themselves to helping the poor, caring for the sick, tending the needy, feeding the homeless. All selflessly. They live in the slums and do their best to help humanity. many days they go without food so that the starving may yet live. But, they have rejected Jesus and are a strong atheist and humanist.

If the humanist Has been given the correct Message of the Messiah Jesus and has considered it and rejected it having understood that message. Then that humanist will spend eternity in the lake of fire.

A Muslim that has devoted themselves to helping the poor, caring for the sick, tending the needy, feeding the homeless, doing all the good works, BUT has rejected Jesus and worships on Mohammad the Last Prophet.

If the muslim Has been given the correct Message of the Messiah Jesus and has considered it and rejected it having understood that message. Then that muslim will spend eternity in the lake of fire.

A Christian that leads a typical middle class American suburban life. Has been baptized into the church which they attend most Sundays and is a true believer in Jesus and accepts Jesus as the messiah. But other than that they lead a typical life, eat well, live in a nice comfy big American home, they may toss a coin to a homeless and donate old cloths at Christmas but as for dedicating their life to helping the retched - no.

If the "christian?" Has been given the correct Message of the Messiah Jesus and has considered it and rejected it having understood that message. Then that "christian?" will spend eternity in the lake of fire.


We all fall short of the perfection of God, It is by having those faults covered/atoned for that anyone enters into eternity with God. No one, No matter how good you think they and no matter how good they think they are can earn eternity with God. Salvation is a gift to those who Love and accept the Mercy of God.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

This is the Catholic doctrine of free will you are preaching. Are you Catholic? Most Protestants don't believe in free will. They believe your fate is decided for you in advance. The free will doctrine extends to include the salvation by works, as opposed to the Protestant view of salvation by grace.

You do not understand that we have both free will and our eternal destination is already known before we where even born.

Salvation is by the grace of God as i have explained above.

You have grouped protestants all in one group i see. From my experience in talking with protestants most are not calvanists and some of them do think that Works is a salvation issue.

As for catholics they just listen to and publicly acknowledge what ever their authorities tell them, but in private most of them think whatever they want to think.

So again your throw them all into one group theories are as about as accurate as your theory about blind people. I know of a blind islamic cleric or inspired the first bombing attack on the world trade centre basement car park. He definitely did not see the infidels as being equal.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[(Q)]

You do not understand that we have both free will and our eternal destination is already known before we where even born.

Theists love contradiction, but I wonder if they actually just believe it to be fact or think it to be fact?

:shrug:

 

[Adstar]

So where is this "Church of Theism" for "theists" then?

You are the only person I have heard refer to themselves as a "theist" as if it were a denomination or something.

For the record I am an ATHEIST. I thought I had made that clear.

Don't act like you were familiar with the film. That is bullshit and you know it.

me thinks you like putting people in pre-created well defined boxes. Boxes that you have built. Your little concentration camps that you seek to use to control a conversation are your delusion.

You get a wee bit huffy when people don't conform to your boxes don't you.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Theists love contradiction, but I wonder if they actually just believe it to be fact or think it to be fact?

:shrug:

When i first read the bible i came up with calvanisim independently of any outside indoctrination. The thought of it pierced my heart and i burst into tears. I went to sleep that night and i awoke and understood the truth. God is independent from our universal time. He sees all our time all at the same time. Like all of human history is like a painting before Him and he can take it all in, in a glance. That’s why he knows the beginning and the end. It is incredable but true. From His foreknowledge He knows each and every persons whole life, And each and every person has free will. We live in the now But He lives outside it in the forever.

LOL I suppose some things cannot be explained using words.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Spud Emperor]

When i first read the bible i came up with calvanisim independently of any outside indoctrination. The thought of it pierced my heart and i burst into tears. I went to sleep that night and i awoke and understood the truth. God is independent from our universal time. He sees all our time all at the same time. Like all of human history is like a painting before Him and he can take it all in, in a glance. That’s why he knows the beginning and the end. It is incredable but true. From His foreknowledge He knows each and every persons whole life, And each and every person has free will. We live in the now But He lives outside it in the forever.

LOL I suppose some things cannot be explained using words.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Ummm!


AAAAARGGGHHHH!!
AAaaaarrrrggghhhh!!!!
Farrrrkkkk!

Aaaarrrggghhhh!!!!!

 

[(Q)]

LOL I suppose some things cannot be explained using words.

Dead on right! Contradictions cannot be explained using words.

 

[Enmos]

From His foreknowledge He knows each and every persons whole life, And each and every person has free will.

Uhmm... right..

 

[Myles]

For the sake of those what would believe. For the sake of the angels who where tempted to follow satan in rebellion. Do you know how many angels there are?

If everything was so good in heaven, why was there a rebellion

Existence is far greater that the universe and all that is in it. Yes God knew that people would reject Him. But He is still Just because it is they who make their decision to reject Him. As long as He has been Just to ensure they have the free will to decide to accept or reject. God is not guilty for those who reject Him. They are responsible for their own response to Him.

Can't you see that if he omniscient he would have known the outcome before creating people. This deprives them of free will because if non-believers became believers they would be going against god's will. If, as you claim, he is omnipotent this copul;d not happren. Before rushing to read your scripture, take a few minutes to think about what I have said.

God is omniscient, therfore he knows past, present and future. He knows that by creating the universe he will create some who don't believe in him. His solution to this problem is to punish those he created not to believe in him.

How can that possibly make sense ?




As for thinking. When the Holy Spirit gives you wisdom you do not suffer from falling over your own thoughts,

So it's the Holy Spirit who is responsible for your silly beliefs ?



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

All Praise the Age of Reason

 

[QuestionEverything]

QuestionEverything,



That's like saying; so where is this air we breath then?



This is one reason why I cannot take seriously what people of similar mentality to yours, say. When something doesn't fit into your preset thinking, you make it fit by hook or by crook.
I am a 'theist', it is that simple.
i
a-m
a
t-h-e-i-s-t.
Is that clear enough for you.
If your mind cannot fathom it, then ask relevant questions.



I know....er duh!



LOL!!
Er....why?

Jan.

Any productive discussion requires honest reciprocation. You are not being honest with me as I have been with you, therefore I will no longer continue this discussion with you. I do not think either one of us has been or would be enriched by it anyway.

Take care, and best of luck finding whatever it is you are searching for.

 

[QuestionEverything]

Do you know how many angels there are?

Yes actually I do. It is a number that is equal to the stars in the sky, since that is where the concept of angels came from.

Stars = kings, lords, angels

Sun = King of kings, Lord of lords, El, Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, Jesus, Krishna, etc.

 

[QuestionEverything]

You do not understand that we have both free will and our eternal destination is already known before we where even born.

You just made my argument for me, keep this up and I'll get lazy.

 

[QuestionEverything]

me thinks you like putting people in pre-created well defined boxes. Boxes that you have built. Your little concentration camps that you seek to use to control a conversation are your delusion.

You get a wee bit huffy when people don't conform to your boxes don't you.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Wow that was so insightful! And to think, all this time I've been putting people in little "concentration" camps (as apposed to the big one where everyone who doesn't believe in Jesus spends eternity in a "lake of fire"). Gosh you've really shown me the error of my ways, and impressed me with your vast intellect! Maybe Jesus can save me from the wretchedness of my ways?

:yawn:

 

[QuestionEverything]

When i first read the bible i came up with calvanisim independently of any outside indoctrination. The thought of it pierced my heart and i burst into tears. I went to sleep that night and i awoke and understood the truth. God is independent from our universal time. He sees all our time all at the same time. Like all of human history is like a painting before Him and he can take it all in, in a glance. That’s why he knows the beginning and the end. It is incredable but true. From His foreknowledge He knows each and every persons whole life, And each and every person has free will. We live in the now But He lives outside it in the forever.

LOL I suppose some things cannot be explained using words.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

OMG DUDE!! My sides are splitting! Not only are you incredibly insightful, but you're a comedy genius as well!
:roflmao:

 

[Jan Ardena]

Any productive discussion requires honest reciprocation. You are not being honest with me as I have been with you, therefore I will no longer continue this discussion with you. I do not think either one of us has been or would be enriched by it anyway.

Take care, and best of luck finding whatever it is you are searching for.

LOL!!!
Farewell my proud friend, I hope you find what it is you are searching for.

Jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Myles,

Can't you see that if he omniscient he would have known the outcome before creating people.

He may know the outcome, but we still have a choice; either spirit or matter. That is what it is to be human.

This deprives them of free will because if non-believers became believers they would be going against god's will.

Even if they were "going against Gods' will, He would still embrace them. But I'm not quite sure how they would be going against His will.

If, as you claim, he is omnipotent this copul;d not happren. Before rushing to read your scripture, take a few minutes to think about what I have said.

What you have said, is an understanding based on weak and biased reasoning. It takes nothing about God into account, other than the use of the term- 'God'.

God is omniscient, therfore he knows past, present and future. He knows that by creating the universe he will create some who don't believe in him. His solution to this problem is to punish those he created not to believe in him.

How can that possibly make sense ?

You and I are on death row for murder, the judgement is set.
You totally accept your lot, because you have come to the realisation that as you pointlessly took lives, you deserve your punishment. In this calm realisation you put your faith in God and accept whatever He decides.
I on the other hand do not see why I should fry for murder, and as time approaches I begin to realise that I will never see my family again, at this time I start to panic within my mind, I am in turmoil.
We both get fried at the same time, but when people read about it, they just understand that two murderers got fried, and for them nothing has changed.
But something did change, while at the same time nothing changed. That is how it is possible.

Jan.

 

[Myles]

LOL!!!
Farewell my proud friend, I hope you find what it is you are searching for.

Jan.

Name calling is a cop out. Would you care to explain how ,if an omniscient god knows our future before we are born , we can have free will ?

How about a straight forward answer?

 

[Jan Ardena]

Name calling is a cop out. Would you care to explain how ,if an omniscient god knows our future before we are born , we can have free will ?

How about a straight forward answer?

Jan.

 

[superluminal]

Any productive discussion requires honest reciprocation. You are not being honest with me as I have been with you, therefore I will no longer continue this discussion with you. I do not think either one of us has been or would be enriched by it anyway.

Take care, and best of luck finding whatever it is you are searching for.

This is exactly the result of discussion with any theist here. There can be no "honest reciprocation". Therefore I find it's best to just try to tease out snippets of information from between their numerous lines of wandering and convoluted "logic".