One for the theists..

[Jan Ardena]

Enmos

predetermination

noun
1. (theology) being determined in advance; especially the doctrine (usually associated with Calvin) that God has foreordained every event throughout eternity (including the final salvation of mankind) [syn: predestination]
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/predetermination

Can you explain why the human existence is not predetermined to choose between sprituality and materiality?

Jan.

 

[superluminal]

Jan Ardena superluminal,


“ 1) God knows past, present, and future.
Do you believe this? ”

Yes.

Ok.

“ 2) God creates fallible creatures for whatever godlike reason.
Do you believe this? ”

I believe He can.

Do you believe He has?

“ 3) God condemns the faulty ones (who he knew ahead of time) to eternal torture.
Do you believe this? ”

Again, I believe He can.

Do you believe he has?

 

[Enmos]

Enmos



Can you explain why the human existence is not predetermined to choose between sprituality and materiality?

Jan.

Why ? I don't believe there is a God. So why would anything be predetermined, by who ?

Edit: Anyhow, I just thought I drop by to post the right definition (you picked the wrong one ).

 

[QuestionEverything]

So why waste time with all that sin, repentance and forgiveness ?

We are all guaranteed a place in heaven, so sin as much as you please/

Look at the statistics.
That's exactly what they do! After all, their god will forgive them anyway, just so long as they believe. In fact, taken literally, a man can go shoot up a room full of little babies and, while on death row, gain salvation by becoming a true believer.

 

[QuestionEverything]

By that standard just imagine the kind of scum that must populate this heaven of theirs!

 

[Jan Ardena]

superluminal,

“ 2) God creates fallible creatures for whatever godlike reason.
Do you believe this? ”

I believe He can.

Do you believe He has?

Not to my understanding, but I'm not exactly sure where you are coming from, which is why I asked for reference.

3) God condemns the faulty ones (who he knew ahead of time) to eternal torture.
Do you believe this? ”

Again, I believe He can. ”

Do you believe he has?

No.

Jan.

 

[QuestionEverything]

superluminal,

“ 2) God creates fallible creatures for whatever godlike reason.
Do you believe this? ”

I believe He can.

Do you believe He has?

Not to my understanding, but I'm not exactly sure where you are coming from, which is why I asked for reference.

3) God condemns the faulty ones (who he knew ahead of time) to eternal torture.
Do you believe this? ”

Again, I believe He can. ”

Do you believe he has?

No.

Jan.

You believe your god is omniscient. Therefore you must also believe that he can't not know in advance the fate of all his creations. Therefore he has created a place called hell for people that he knew in advance, even before he created them, would be placed there. Hence he created people to suffer for all eternity.

Either this fictitious god is the sickest piece of worthless omnipotent garbage in all existence, or...

The idiots that created him were the sickest pieces of worthless garbage in all of human history.

Since I don't believe in this god I will go with the latter.

 

[superluminal]

Jan,

Unfortunately I think you know exactly what we are asking you, and you simply will not play our game. That's fine. Just say so.

Me:
God creates fallible creatures for whatever godlike reason.
Do you believe this? ”

You: I believe He can.

Me: Do you believe He has?

You: Not to my understanding, but I'm not exactly sure where you are coming from, which is why I asked for reference.

By fallible creatures, I mean mass murderers, rapists, psychopathic killers and torturers of all kinds.

Do you consider these people god's creations? If so, and god knows past, present and future (to which you said 'yes'), then He created people for these express purposes.

Me: God condemns the faulty ones (who he knew ahead of time) to eternal torture.
Do you believe this? ”

You: Again, I believe He can. ”

Me: Do you believe he has?

You: No.

So you don't believe in hell? I thought you did.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

here's another quote from Mencken (1943) regarding negros, to give you some indication of his other notions of veneration

"It is impossible to talk anything resembling discretion or judgment to a colored woman"

*************
M*W: What are you saying? I am a white woman. I have no colored people in my background. You and Baron Max need to take a course on racial diversity. I'm a white girl, raised in the South, a Confederate girl who has not one drop of Negro blood! I'm reporting you, you idiot!

 

[QuestionEverything]

*************
M*W: What are you saying? I am a white woman. I have no colored people in my background. You and Baron Max need to take a course on racial diversity. I'm a white girl, raised in the South, a Confederate girl who has not one drop of Negro blood! I'm reporting you, you idiot!

Uh, I don't think he meant that how you took it.

 

[Myles]

Myles, I do believe you are being problematic because you personally don't like theism, as opposed to simply just being an atheist. The truth of the matter is, the chances are, neither of us knows for sure. I am not saying I am right and you are wrong, I merely enjoy discussing these issues for a number of reasons.
The fact is, what you thought was an air tight argument in favour of atheism, isn't, and now you cannot go any further, so you choose to sling mud at what you personally despise, in a last ditch attempt to gain support, in a forum where most people would support you anyway. This smacks of desparatism. My advise is, give it up, no one can win, and come and join Superluminal and I in a group hug.

Love
Jan.

A good try but it won't wash. The fact that I'm having a bit of fun at the Pope's expense doesn't vitiate my other posts. You'll try anything other than reason to support you belief in god.

Go hug Adstar; you deserve each other.

 

[lightgigantic]

*************
M*W: What are you saying? I am a white woman. I have no colored people in my background. You and Baron Max need to take a course on racial diversity. I'm a white girl, raised in the South, a Confederate girl who has not one drop of Negro blood! I'm reporting you, you idiot!

maybe you should just do a bit more research on the personalities you quote as ideal atheists, in case they have personal philosophies (such as mencken for eg) that are clearly unethical

 

[lightgigantic]

Uh, I don't think he meant that how you took it.

misunderstandings like this happen from time to time

 

[Jan Ardena]

superluminal,

Unfortunately I think you know exactly what we are asking you, and you simply will not play our game. That's fine. Just say so.

Its simple superluminal, give me the references to your claims so I can see where you're coming from.

By fallible creatures, I mean mass murderers, rapists, psychopathic killers and torturers of all kinds.

If we take a look at genesis (common understanding), we see that God created Adam and Eve, and to some extent, Jesus. To my understanding they were faultless at the point of creation. Why would I conclude that God creates faulty beings? Or more importantly, why would you?

Do you consider these people god's creations?

I consider everything we percieve as God's creation.

If so, and god knows past, present and future (to which you said 'yes'), then He created people for these express purposes.

How do you come to that conclusion?
Why didn't you come to the conclusion that He created 'people' to become self-realised? That makes more sense.

So you don't believe in hell? I thought you did.

I believe hells exist, in the same way heavens exists, place of varying states of consciousness.

Jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Myles,

A good try but it won't wash.

A good try?

The fact that I'm having a bit of fun at the Pope's expense doesn't vitiate my other posts. You'll try anything other than reason to support you belief in god.

And what is your reason to support your atheism?
If it is 'lack of evidence', then please explain what you would regard as evidence to support a belief.

Go hug Adstar; you deserve each other.

When/if he becomes bitter and twisted, I will.

Jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

QuestionEverything,

You believe your god is omniscient. Therefore you must also believe that he can't not know in advance the fate of all his creations.

How many variations of fate can there actually be.

Therefore he has created a place called hell for people that he knew in advance, even before he created them, would be placed there. Hence he created people to suffer for all eternity.

My understanding is that hells are places where demons reside, and demons are beings of certain types of characteristics. And to add to that, these souls are eternally conditioned. It is my understanding that humans can be influenced by demons thereby becoming 'demonic'. These souls are not necessarily eternally conditioned.

Either this fictitious god is the sickest piece of worthless omnipotent garbage in all existence, or...

The idiots that created him were the sickest pieces of worthless garbage in all of human history.

This characteristic of you, is identifiable within most of your posts, certainly all the ones you made with me. You just can't hide it.

Since I don't believe in this god I will go with the latter.

It's entertaining how you make up your both sides of the equation, then go with one as though you have made a rational and informed choice.

Jan.

 

[QuestionEverything]

Jan,
It's entertaining how you make up your both sides of the equation, then go with one as though you have made a rational and informed choice.

You Christians (and that is EXACTLY what you are so don't bother denying it) are so unoriginal in your arguments that I would have to argue with myself to get the equation to produce an original and enlightening result.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

I use scriptural quotes to show why Christians believe as they do.

*************
M*W: Adstar, I find this statement to be rather arrogant. Even as an atheist, I find you to be presumptious that you think you are a spokesman for all christians! But your past history on sciforums proves that you are. It's christians like you that I despise. You are neither a true christian nor a righteous one. Having been one myself in years past, I am still appalled that that there are christians out there like you. You are the very reason I hate christians. You should be ashamed of yourself... but, oh, you're a christian, so you think you are the salt of the earth. Let me tell you something. Being the "salt of the earth" is not a good thing. Salt is the most common of elements. And when you hear that said, it means you are as common as dirt. But then that's what all christians are, and you're number one.

Just as this poster was using a scriptural quote to explain why He thinks the God of Abraham is not nice.

Here comes the Question.

What is the difference between someone quoting the bible and using it to explain why they believe as they do and someone quoting the Bible to preach?

Surely if someone is quoting scripture and explaining why they believe as they do then it is the same as preaching. Just as when a atheist quotes whatever they quote to show why they believe God or Christianity or religion in general is false.

See there is no difference between talking about ones beliefs and preaching irrespective of wether one is preaching in the positive that God exists or preaching in the negative.

Seems to me that you are simply using the Word "preaching" as a simple and convenient tag and justification to suppress expressions of belief that you disagree with.

If we are going to have a religion forum and you don't want Christians revealing why they believe what they believe then what is the point of having a forum dedicated to the topic?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days[/QUOTE]

 

[Adstar]

*************
M*W: Adstar, I find this statement to be rather arrogant. Even as an atheist, I find you to be presumptious that you think you are a spokesman for all christians! But your past history on sciforums proves that you are. It's christians like you that I despise. You are neither a true christian nor a righteous one. Having been one myself in years past, I am still appalled that that there are christians out there like you. You are the very reason I hate christians. You should be ashamed of yourself... but, oh, you're a christian, so you think you are the salt of the earth. Let me tell you something. Being the "salt of the earth" is not a good thing. Salt is the most common of elements. And when you hear that said, it means you are as common as dirt. But then that's what all christians are, and you're number one.

What a waste of typing effort MW.

Do you think this paragraphed insult has any more effect than the usual pathetic one-liners i have been getting in here every day for the past 3 years? I really wonder sometimes if it will ever dawn on you that no amount of personal attacks will ever undermine my confidence in the God of Abraham.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[juju]

Isn't it more of a reason to worship?

Would you stop loving your parents and respecting their morals and values if they didn't punish you?
Would you stop yearning for education and listening to your teacher if there was no more time out corner?
So...would you really stop worshipping God if there was no hell?