One for the theists..

[Adstar]

It looks at what a god must do if he ever wants to get the attention he so desperately craves. Without a heaven or hell, (people just die as all the other animals do), I would submit that nobody would really even care if he was there or not. His worth would become redundant. To get the attention he craves he seemingly has no choice but to make threats and offer rewards. This god is bound by bribery

But He does not use only the message of eternity with God or the lake of fire. He uses the entire Word of God to show both wisdom and love.

So what if God uses the promise of Eternity with Him and eternity in the lake of fire to motivate people to consider His message. They are pretty good attention grabbers you must admit. But once you have someone’s attention you can move on to the deeper things.

As for the original question it is superfluous to me, I have moved on from there, What holds me to Him is not the expectation of reward or fear of wrath but the knowledge of His perfect love and respect for his awesome wisdom.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Spud Emperor]

Excuse me in advance for being unintelligible and or going over your head!

But I'm having this lovely mental image of God looking down on his handiwork and expecting to see peace, harmony, yatte yatte, bullshit, bullshit etc, in his own likeness, bullshit, bullshit, pefect love and wisdom, cough, cough!

Anyway, ( cheap shot coming up, look away now) God sees a freakin' great mob of disciples with their heads to the heavens, blank looks of meek resignation/divine acceptance on their gormless dials and says " No, my children, love me but live your lives and seek pleasure in the world around you. Fear not my wrath!"
* God mumbles to himself gruffly* " Fuck me! I thought the heaven and hell thing were pretty obvious metaphors, I should have paid more attention in omnipotent deities 101{must have been the day I turned my blood to wine, will I never learn?}

" Look down, my children, find truth in the Earth"
* "Yep, that's fairly simple"* days work done.

He looks down and see's his fanatical followers with their collective heads in the sand of the desert of derangement. He gets really pissed off 'cos not one of them sees him descend to Earth but he goes on a rampage and kicks everyone of their fat Ostrich arses, feathers are flying everywhere but the followers keep their heads firmly underground.

Meanwhile the massive congregation( I use that term advisedly) of atheist baboons on the hill are going wild, they're practically hysterical, screeching, doing somersaults and waving their purple arses at the Ostriches.

God looks over to the atheist baboons and says " What are you laughing at, I only created you guys for my own amusement."

 

[audible]

You QuestionEverything are as biased as the next guy and your posts bear this out, just take the example above.

Blind people see all beings as equals.....?

See how you lump all people into groups!

what!
if they're all equal, then it must be one big group called humanity.

 

[Myles]

But He does not use only the message of eternity with God or the lake of fire. He uses the entire Word of God to show both wisdom and love.

So what if God uses the promise of Eternity with Him and eternity in the lake of fire to motivate people to consider His message. They are pretty good attention grabbers you must admit. But once you have someone’s attention you can move on to the deeper things.

As for the original question it is superfluous to me, I have moved on from there, What holds me to Him is not the expectation of reward or fear of wrath but the knowledge of His perfect love and respect for his awesome wisdom.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

If he is so wise why did he create people to throw into his lake of fire ? Do you ever question what you believe ?


All Praise the Age of Reason

 

[Adstar]

He did not create people to throw into the lake of fire. People who rebel against the truth make themselves allies of satan are assigned eternity with satan in the lake of fire.

People decide where they will go. All people can decide to accept the truth, so not one was created to be thrown into the lake of fire.

So yeah i do think about what i believe.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[USS Exeter]

If this is true, then I think the American government is more just than "God." People should have the right to believe what they want to believe.

 

[QuestionEverything]

What results have you achieved? All you do is criticize other peoples beliefs, now have the guts to tell us what you believe.

What do I believe?
1) There is no god/gods/goddesses
2) No souls either.
3) No souls equals no afterlife
4) No hell
5) There is a heaven, it's called space, I live there (on earth)
6) Science will never have all the answers, that's ok for me.
7) It doesn't get any better than this.
8) Most theists only maintain theism from a lack of knowledge.
9) Theists are not bad, but their philosophy is childish and unhealthy

That about sums it up. Enough guts for you?

 

[QuestionEverything]

QuestionEverything,



I wasn't aware that there is a standard textbook answer to questions regarding such matters.
How do you know we haven't given an honest response to this trick question?
I hope this question is intelligent enough for you to reply to.



Given the stupidity of the question, what were you hoping for?

Jan.

I agree it was a trick question. It is not entirely fair to expect you to change the equation like that when it is a defining part of your system of beliefs. Believe it or not, I understand why you believe in what you believe. It would be attractive to me as well if I hadn't learned what I've learned about it. If I sound arrogant at times it's only because I get caught up in the debate, then I forget my humility and act as if I've always had the answers to these questions. I just wish Christians would really study their Bibles and ask the hard questions about it.

 

[QuestionEverything]

You QuestionEverything are as biased as the next guy and your posts bear this out, just take the example above.

Blind people see all beings as equals.....?

See how you lump all people into groups!

Yeah, theists don't like it when they get lumped in with all those "undesirables". Eugenics anyone?

You took me out of context. I said "beings" not people. That includes all the animals too. You know the ones that theists believe are inferior because they have no souls.

I think a strong case could be made to the effect that we humans are NOT the superior form of life on Earth. I would trade places with almost any flying bird in a second if I could.

Perhaps it's this human centric philosophy that leads to the abuse and destruction of the planet, since we don't seem to display any empathy towards our OTHER neighbors.

Or maybe you shouldn't ask a stupid question like "why did you choose a blind man to be your avatar?" and then take the answer so seriously. :scratchin:

 

[Myles]

He did not create people to throw into the lake of fire. People who rebel against the truth make themselves allies of satan are assigned eternity with satan in the lake of fire.

People decide where they will go. All people can decide to accept the truth, so not one was created to be thrown into the lake of fire.

So yeah i do think about what i believe.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

You don't think enough. If god is omnipotent, and omniscient then he knew how his creation would turn out. So why did he go ahead and create us ?


All Praise the Age of Reason

 

[QuestionEverything]

Myles,
You are trying to get a logic based statement from a Sun worshiper that doesn't know he's worshiping the Sun. You could sooner dig to China with a teaspoon. :wallbang:

 

[Jan Ardena]

QuestionEverything,

Why are all the theists' responses on this thread completely irrelevant to the topic at hand? Are theists so dishonest that they find it impossible to give a straight answer?

Why ask such a silly question when you agree that the "topic at hand" is foolish? Are you that capricious?

Theists, your house is built on sand, deal with it!

So is Quwait.
The atheist house has no foundation, what to speak of a building.

I agree it was a trick question. It is not entirely fair to expect you to change the equation like that when it is a defining part of your system of beliefs.

What does that mean?

Believe it or not, I understand why you believe in what you believe.

I would like to believe it, but I need you to explain your understanding otherwise it is nothing more than a confidence statement in your head.

It would be attractive to me as well if I hadn't learned what I've learned about it.

Care to share?

If I sound arrogant at times it's only because I get caught up in the debate, then I forget my humility and act as if I've always had the answers to these questions.

I can understand that, but I'm sure you can get over it now, as this arrogance stance doesn't wash with me.

I just wish Christians would really study their Bibles and ask the hard questions about it.

Theism isn't "christianity".

I would apreciate it if you would be so kind as to respond to the points I made in previous posts. At least let's try and advance this thread by engaging in an intelligent discussion. Who knows it may even become a credible thread.

Thanks in advance
Jan.

 

[QuestionEverything]

QuestionEverything,



Why ask such a silly question when you agree that the "topic at hand" is foolish? Are you that capricious?

No, I had not fully thought out the question from your perspective at that point in the thread.

So is Quwait.
The atheist house has no foundation, what to speak of a building.

We have some pretty solid evidence, however incomplete the picture may be.

What does that mean?

It means I'm giving you a break.

I would like to believe it, but I need you to explain your understanding otherwise it is nothing more than a confidence statement in your head.

All things said here are statements in our head.

Care to share?

Well, if you don't shoot the messenger, yes.
Here is a documentary that you might find enlightening, I sure did. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8700041490363244845
It's well worth the hour and 51 minutes of your time. It's not all there is to learn on the subject, but it's a heck of a good start.

I can understand that, but I'm sure you can get over it now, as this arrogance stance doesn't wash with me.

This is what I mean when I say "Question everything!"
Sometimes, I must turn around and question myself. No one is immune from that philosophy, not even me. My only bias is to truth, the rest is bullshit.

Theism isn't "christianity".

True. I assumed you were Christian. Did I make a mistake?

I would apreciate it if you would be so kind as to respond to the points I made in previous posts. At least let's try and advance this thread by engaging in an intelligent discussion. Who knows it may even become a credible thread.

Thanks in advance
Jan.

Uh, maybe you could repeat the most important ones?

 

[Michael]

He did not create people to throw into the lake of fire. People who rebel against the truth make themselves allies of satan are assigned eternity with satan in the lake of fire.

People decide where they will go. All people can decide to accept the truth, so not one was created to be thrown into the lake of fire.

So yeah i do think about what i believe.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I'm curious Adstar, say we have three people:

An atheist that has devoted themselves to helping the poor, caring for the sick, tending the needy, feeding the homeless. All selflessly. They live in the slums and do their best to help humanity. many days they go without food so that the starving may yet live. But, they have rejected Jesus and are a strong atheist and humanist.

A Muslim that has devoted themselves to helping the poor, caring for the sick, tending the needy, feeding the homeless, doing all the good works, BUT has rejected Jesus and worships on Mohammad the Last Prophet.

A Christian that leads a typical middle class American suburban life. Has been baptized into the church which they attend most Sundays and is a true believer in Jesus and accepts Jesus as the messiah. But other than that they lead a typical life, eat well, live in a nice comfy big American home, they may toss a coin to a homeless and donate old cloths at Christmas but as for dedicating their life to helping the retched - no.


So as for heaven and hell, as the three people are hypothetical, which place will each end up?

Michael

 

[Jan Ardena]

QuestionEverything,

We have some pretty solid evidence, however incomplete the picture may be.

"Solid" evidence that God does not exist, impressive.
You'll understand if I don't ask for demonstrations, based on your last one. But if you want, be my guest.

It means I'm giving you a break.

I think you misunderstand.
What do you mean by "equation" and "my set of beliefs"??

All things said here are statements in our head.

Well, in order for me to believe or not believe your claim, you need to lay it on the line, otherwise it means nothing.

Well, if you don't shoot the messenger, yes.
Here is a documentary that you might find enlightening, I sure did. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8700041490363244845
It's well worth the hour and 51 minutes of your time. It's not all there is to learn on the subject, but it's a heck of a good start.

For such a confident sounding person, you sure are are vague, with a slight hint of cowadice, in your replies. I'm begining to think you have nothing to offer.
You said;

.....Believe it or not, I understand why you believe in what you believe. It would be attractive to me as well if I hadn't learned what I've learned about it....

Then you give me this link.
Can you tell me what this link has to do with;
a) what you think i believe
b) theism

This is what I mean when I say "Question everything!"
Sometimes, I must turn around and question myself. No one is immune from that philosophy, not even me. My only bias is to truth, the rest is bullshit.

True. I assumed you were Christian. Did I make a mistake?

Did I say I was Christian?
It is always a mistake, not to mention downright rude, imo, to make assumptions about people.

Uh, maybe you could repeat the most important ones?

There are only 5 question, if you can't be bothered to answer them then fair enough.

Jan.

 

[QuestionEverything]

QuestionEverything,



"Solid" evidence that God does not exist, impressive.
You'll understand if I don't ask for demonstrations, based on your last one. But if you want, be my guest.

Whatever.

I think you misunderstand.
What do you mean by "equation" and "my set of beliefs"??

I was using terms of logic to describe the illogical, my bad!

Well, in order for me to believe or not believe your claim, you need to lay it on the line, otherwise it means nothing.

Lay it on the line, eh? Not quite sure what you are suggesting here.

For such a confident sounding person, you sure are are vague, with a slight hint of cowadice, in your replies. I'm begining to think you have nothing to offer.
You said;

I can see by showing deference to you I have succeeded in doing little more than putting a beggar on horseback. You're so brave where is your declaration of faith or lack thereof? I've shown my hand, what do you have to hide? Who is the coward now?

.....Believe it or not, I understand why you believe in what you believe. It would be attractive to me as well if I hadn't learned what I've learned about it....

Everybody wants to live forever, what makes you think I'd be any different.

Then you give me this link.
Can you tell me what this link has to do with;
a) what you think i believe
b) theism

You asked me to share information, I share it, then you throw it back at me, refusing to look at it. Again, who is the coward here? Education to people like you is the equivalent of holy water to a vampire!

Did I say I was Christian?
It is always a mistake, not to mention downright rude, imo, to make assumptions about people.

And I corrected my assumption, yet still no answer as to what the hell you actually are. Whatever it is you are clearly ashamed of it!

There are only 5 question, if you can't be bothered to answer them then fair enough.

Jan.

I've answered enough. Educate yourself and grow some balls, then we'll talk.

 

[QuestionEverything]

He did not create people to throw into the lake of fire. People who rebel against the truth make themselves allies of satan are assigned eternity with satan in the lake of fire.

People decide where they will go. All people can decide to accept the truth, so not one was created to be thrown into the lake of fire.

So yeah i do think about what i believe.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

This is the Catholic doctrine of free will you are preaching. Are you Catholic? Most Protestants don't believe in free will. They believe your fate is decided for you in advance. The free will doctrine extends to include the salvation by works, as opposed to the Protestant view of salvation by grace.

 

[Jan Ardena]

QuestionEverything,

Lay it on the line, eh? Not quite sure what you are suggesting here.

How else can I believe or not believe your claim if you don't explain what it is.
I'm not a mind reader.

I can see by showing deference to you I have succeeded in doing little more than putting a beggar on horseback.

Oh please.
Just listen to yourself.

You're so brave where is your declaration of faith or lack thereof? I've shown my hand, what do you have to hide? Who is the coward now?

Sorry, I thought you realised. I am theist, look up its meaning if you are unsure.

You asked me to share information, I share it, then you throw it back at me, refusing to look at it.

Excuse me! Firstly, why do you assume I have not looked at it, or how do you know that I am not already familiar with this film, or subject matter. Secondly, I am asking you how the film is relevant to what YOU assume my beliefs are, and theism in general.
"Believe it or not, I understand why you believe in what you believe. It would be attractive to me as well if I hadn't learned what I've learned about it."
That was the only reason I asked you to share your information, and my response is based on that.

Again, who is the coward here? Education to people like you is the equivalent of holy water to a vampire!

What?
You have serious issues that must be dealt with my dear sir, arrogance (as you mentioned earlier) being one of them.

And I corrected my assumption, yet still no answer as to what the hell you actually are. Whatever it is you are clearly ashamed of it!

I've told you, I'm theist, what more do you want.
Why is this such an issue with you?

I've answered enough. Educate yourself and grow some balls, then we'll talk.

I have to ask questions to you and others of similar mentality, because it is hard to lock on to your disjointed thinking, and assumptions, which are taken as truth or fact. The reason you become angry (imo), is because you cannot actually converse with your presets, they have to be accepted as articles of fact, only giving way to someone who can expand on them.
No amount of education is going to allow for a intelligent discussion with you, simply because you've no intention of having one, intelligent or otherwise.

Jan.

 

[QuestionEverything]

I've told you, I'm theist, what more do you want.
Why is this such an issue with you?

So where is this "Church of Theism" for "theists" then?

You are the only person I have heard refer to themselves as a "theist" as if it were a denomination or something.

For the record I am an ATHEIST. I thought I had made that clear.

Don't act like you were familiar with the film. That is bullshit and you know it.

 

[Jan Ardena]

QuestionEverything,

So where is this "Church of Theism" for "theists" then?

That's like saying; so where is this air we breath then?

You are the only person I have heard refer to themselves as a "theist" as if it were a denomination or something.

This is one reason why I cannot take seriously what people of similar mentality to yours, say. When something doesn't fit into your preset thinking, you make it fit by hook or by crook.
I am a 'theist', it is that simple.
i
a-m
a
t-h-e-i-s-t.
Is that clear enough for you.
If your mind cannot fathom it, then ask relevant questions.

For the record I am an ATHEIST. I thought I had made that clear.

I know....er duh!

Don't act like you were familiar with the film. That is bullshit and you know it.

LOL!!
Er....why?

Jan.