One for the theists..

[Myles]

Myles,



He may know the outcome, but we still have a choice; either spirit or matter. That is what it is to be human.

What choice if the all-knowing one knows in advance what we will do. Why did he create nonm-believers ?


Even if they were "going against Gods' will, He would still embrace them. But I'm not quite sure how they would be going against His will.

Think about it and you may see what I am getting at


What you have said, is an understanding based on weak and biased reasoning. It takes nothing about God into account, other than the use of the term- 'God'.

I have said nothing that does not follow from what Adstar said. What have I left out ?


You and I are on death row for murder, the judgement is set.
You totally accept your lot, and accept whatever He decides.
I on the other hand do lives, you deserve your punishment. In this calm realisation you put your faith in God hy I should fry for murder, and as time approaches I begnot see wbecause you have come to the realisation that as you pointlessly took in to realise that I will never see my family again, at this time I start to panic within my mind, I am in turmoil.
We both get fried at the same time, but when people read about it, they just understand that two murderers got fried, and for them nothing has changed.
But something did change, while at the same time nothing changed. That is how it is possible.

Jan.

Your analogy says nothing. Stick to straightforward answers to straightforward questions. Or don't you think reason has a role to play in all this ?

 

[superluminal]

1) God knows past, present, and future.

2) God creates fallible creatures for whatever godlike reason.

3) God condemns the faulty ones (who he knew ahead of time) to eternal torture.

Give a simple statement of your opinion of this behavior, that you accept as fact.

It's soooo easy.

 

[QuestionEverything]

This is exactly the result of discussion with any theist here. There can be no "honest reciprocation". Therefore I find it's best to just try to tease out snippets of information from between their numerous lines of wandering and convoluted "logic".

Yeah I can see that now. I thought integrity transcended belief systems, proved wrong once again.

 

[Myles]

Jan.

That's a very useful dodge. You are suggesting I'm confused in the hope of not having to answer my wuestion. I don't think you'll fool many with that evasive responsae

 

[superluminal]

Yeah I can see that now. I thought integrity transcended belief systems, proved wrong once again.

Yeah, but it fun to try every now and again, and watch them squirm.

 

[Myles]

1) God knows past, present, and future.

2) God creates fallible creatures for whatever godlike reason.

3) God condemns the faulty ones (who he knew ahead of time) to eternal torture.

Give a simple statement of your opinion of this behavior, that you accept as fact.

It's soooo easy.

I know what's going on here.

When I was a kid I tried to make a model airplane. I went wrong at some stage so I threw it onto the floor and jumped on it. My onl;t excuse is that I was immature. Had I forseen what would happen, I would not have started building the plane/

 

[QuestionEverything]

Yeah, but it fun to try every now and again, and watch them squirm.

I feel you on that one brother! :mufc:

 

[superluminal]

I know what's going on here.

When I was a kid I tried to make a model airplane. I went wrong at some stage so I threw it onto the floor and jumped on it. My onl;t excuse is that I was immature. Had I forseen what would happen, I would not have started building the plane/

Except for not having enough patience, you would have made a good god. Immaturity, wrath, destructive tantrums...

 

[Jan Ardena]

Myles,

What choice if the all-knowing one knows in advance what we will do. Why did he create nonm-believers ?

There are two choices, spirituality, or materiality.

Think about it and you may see what I am getting at

Still don't get it.

Your analogy says nothing. Stick to straightforward answers to straightforward questions. Or don't you think reason has a role to play in all this ?

You said;

God is omniscient, therfore he knows past, present and future. He knows that by creating the universe he will create some who don't believe in him. His solution to this problem is to punish those he created not to believe in him.

How can that possibly make sense ?

How is this a straight-foreward question, when the subject is "omniscient" knowing past, present, and future.
Are you for real man?

That's a very useful dodge. You are suggesting I'm confused in the hope of not having to answer my wuestion. I don't think you'll fool many with that evasive responsae

Apologies. I thought it seemed tad out of place as it was in response to my farewell speech to QE.

Name calling is a cop out. Would you care to explain how ,if an omniscient god knows our future before we are born , we can have free will ?

How about a straight forward answer?

Proud = name calling?

There can only be 2 outcomes to the future in this life, spirituality, or materiality, and my understanding is that the human body is ultimately designed for the purpose of making that choice.

Jan.

 

[Myles]

Myles,



There are two choices, spirituality, or materiality.



Still don't get it.



You said;

God is omniscient, therfore he knows past, present and future. He knows that by creating the universe he will create some who don't believe in him. His solution to this problem is to punish those he created not to believe in him.

How can that possibly make sense ?

How is this a straight-foreward question, when the subject is "omniscient" knowing past, present, and future.
Are you for real man?

Apologies. I thought it seemed tad out of place as it was in response to my farewell speech to QE.

Proud = name calling?

There can only be 2 outcomes to the future in this life, spirituality, or materiality, and my understanding is that the human body is ultimately designed for the purpose of making that choice.
Jan.

There's a german saying; the tone makes the music. You used proud derogatively

And you don't agree with Adstar that god knows all about our lives before we are born. Is that so ?

 

[Jan Ardena]

Myles,

There's a german saying; the tone makes the music. You used proud derogatively

And you don't agree with Adstar that god knows all about our lives before we are born. Is that so ?

There is an english saying; if the cap fits. I used proud fittingly.

Jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Myles,

There's a german saying; the tone makes the music. You used proud derogatively

And you don't agree with Adstar that god knows all about our lives before we are born. Is that so ?

There is an english saying; if the cap fit let him wear it. I believe I used proud fittingly.
God may know all about our lives before we are born, but we are born to experience and make choices, and the choices we make determine the ultimate choice spirituality or materiality.

Sorry about the double post.

Jan.

 

[Myles]

Myles,



There is an english saying; if the cap fit let him wear it. I believe I used proud fittingly.
God may know all about our lives before we are born, but we are born to experience and make choices, and the choices we make determine the ultimate choice spirituality or materiality.

Sorry about the double post.

Jan.

I cannot see why you do not understand that ,if god knows all before we are born, then we are predetermined. Predetermination precludes free will. Is that so difficult to understand ?

 

[QuestionEverything]

Is that so difficult to understand ?

Yes, for the unintelligent it is.

 

[QuestionEverything]

me thinks you like putting people in pre-created well defined boxes. Boxes that you have built. Your little concentration camps that you seek to use to control a conversation are your delusion.

You get a wee bit huffy when people don't conform to your boxes don't you.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Actually Adstar, you are the easiest one of all to fit so neatly into such a box. Only I didn't have to put you in your box, you did that all by yourself.

You are going to die one day Adstar, and do you know what's waiting for you? A lake of fire? A city in the clouds? No, I'll tell you what will be waiting... just another box. They can write it on your tombstone, "In death as in life he fit rather neatly inside of a box!"

 

[John99]

No, I'll tell you what will be waiting...

That is a text book example of delusion.

 

[QuestionEverything]

That is a text book example of delusion.

Coming from the delusional I take that as a compliment!

 

[Adstar]

Actually Adstar, you are the easiest one of all to fit so neatly into such a box. Only I didn't have to put you in your box, you did that all by yourself.

You are going to die one day Adstar, and do you know what's waiting for you? A lake of fire? A city in the clouds? No, I'll tell you what will be waiting... just another box. They can write it on your tombstone, "In death as in life he fit rather neatly inside of a box!"

I will be with My Loving Lord.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

For the sake of those what would believe. For the sake of the angels who where tempted to follow satan in rebellion. Do you know how many angels there are?

If everything was so good in heaven, why was there a rebellion

Jealousy most likely. There are a lot of millionaires in this world living good lives of plenty but there are also a lot of millionaires who are jealous of billionaires. Living good does not stop them from feeling poor when they look at their richer peers. Likewise there are a lot of people driving down the road in cars who are jealous of people driving better cars, they never compare themselves with people starving to death in some under supplied refugee camp.

Existence is far greater that the universe and all that is in it. Yes God knew that people would reject Him. But He is still Just because it is they who make their decision to reject Him. As long as He has been Just to ensure they have the free will to decide to accept or reject. God is not guilty for those who reject Him. They are responsible for their own response to Him.

Can't you see that if he omniscient he would have known the outcome before creating people.

Yes.

This deprives them of free will because if non-believers became believers they would be going against god's will.

Nope. Non-believers become believers everyday and God foreknew it would happen. People who believe do so by their own free will and God already knew how they would react to the Gospel Message.

If, as you claim, he is omnipotent this copul;d not happren. Before rushing to read your scripture, take a few minutes to think about what I have said.

I know what your saying. And i know your locked into the belief that everything is locked into creation and it's time frame.

God is omniscient, therfore he knows past, present and future. He knows that by creating the universe he will create some who don't believe in him. His solution to this problem is to punish those he created not to believe in him.

How can that possibly make sense ?

Well that should make sense to you but that's calvanisim and that is wrong.

God did not create people without free will who had no chance to accept Him. God created free willed people and was able to see before hand what their decisions would be. You simply cannot comprehend how a Creator can know the exact outcome of His creation without forcing the result.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Spud Emperor]

Oh!
Now I get it.
God created me with the pre-ordained destiny to not believe in him so I could provide people like you with a holier than though attitude and a need to show their disdain.

When I die, I'll go straight to hell and God will...hang on, I'm getting confused, will he laugh at me for being stupid ( as he wished) or will he feel a pang of remorse for not giving me the propensity to believe as you do?

I'm getting it, I'm just a big fuckin' loser and the big guy is not as all loving as you first thought.
I'm getting the picture, how about you?

Only one question I'd like you to attempt to answer..Is God a malevolent prick?