One for the theists..

Would you still worship god if there was no hell?

  • Total voters
    14
Adstar said:
Myles said:


Jealousy most likely. There are a lot of millionaires in this world living good lives of plenty but there are also a lot of millionaires who are jealous of billionaires. Living good does not stop them from feeling poor when they look at their richer peers. Likewise there are a lot of people driving down the road in cars who are jealous of people driving better cars, they never compare themselves with people starving to death in some under supplied refugee camp.


So heaven is just like earth. Jealousy, holy wars and so on. If god was so great there would have been no rebellion


Yes.



Nope. Non-believers become believers everyday and God foreknew it would happen. People who believe do so by their own free will and God already knew how they would react to the Gospel Message.

What a funny god you have. So god created non-believers so that they could become believers, believers who would remain believers and believers who would become non-believers. How about the unbelievers who remain unbelievers and believers who become non-believers ? He obviously made them so they could be thrown into his lake of fire. Well, that's all right then.

You have confirmed my belief that you are prepared to believe any old nonsense so that you can cling to your straw.

One simple question : How can predetermination and free will coexist ?


God did not create people without free will who had no chance to accept Him. God created free willed people and was able to see before hand what their decisions would be. You simply cannot comprehend how a Creator can know the exact outcome of His creation without forcing the result.

You are right. I cannot comprehend such nonsense. It is clear that reason is a non-starter with you. We are back to how you can believe that predetermination and free will can coexist. Can you answer this one question ?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days


All Praise the Age of Reason
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Myles,

I cannot see why you do not understand that ,if god knows all before we are born, then we are predetermined. Predetermination precludes free will. Is that so difficult to understand ?
Click to expand...

I do understand what you are saying, but ask yourself; what is predetermination?

Definition:
1. arrange in advance: to decide, agree, or arrange something in advance

The human being is predetermined to choose spirituality or materiality. There is nothing in the definition which indicates one course of action.
Neither is there anything in any scripture to indicate the human being has only one course of action to take.
Is that so dificult to understand?

Jan.
 
Jan Ardena said:
Myles, QuestionEverything, Superluminal...

Group hug?

Jan.
Click to expand...

Sure!

*huuuggggg*

Now, I've reproduced this here for your enjoyment:


1) God knows past, present, and future.

2) God creates fallible creatures for whatever godlike reason.

3) God condemns the faulty ones (who he knew ahead of time) to eternal torture.

Give a simple statement of your opinion of this behavior, that you accept as fact, please.
 
Theists say they choose spirituality over materialism. Yet the most wealthy and therefor materialistic people in the world are theists. Has the Pope chosen spirituality over materialism? Did Jerry Falwell? How about Benny Hinn? Hell when I was a Christian our pastor (Gene Scott) used to yell at the congregation for not giving enough money, then drive away at the end of the sermon in a limousine. Is that choosing spirituality over materialism?

And with all their billions what of the homeless and needy? The Pope could end poverty on this planet completely on his own if he wanted to. But do you really think this man is about spirituality and charity?

benedict-xvi-3.jpg


I don't think so! The spirituality/materialism argument is a joke, period.

Spirituality? I've never seen any proof that such a thing as a spirit even exists. It's just another childish fantasy based human construct. Might as well discuss Leprechauns!
 
superluminal said:
Sure!

*huuuggggg*

Now, I've reproduced this here for your enjoyment:


1) God knows past, present, and future.

2) God creates fallible creatures for whatever godlike reason.

3) God condemns the faulty ones (who he knew ahead of time) to eternal torture.

Give a simple statement of your opinion of this behavior, that you accept as fact, please.
Click to expand...

Does intellect qualify as a fault? Shit I guess I'm damned! :mufc:
 
Jan Ardena said:
Myles,



I do understand what you are saying, but ask yourself; what is predetermination?

Definition:
1. arrange in advance: to decide, agree, or arrange something in advance

The human being is predetermined to choose spirituality or materiality. There is nothing in the definition which indicates one course of action.
Neither is there anything in any scripture to indicate the human being has only one course of action to take.
Is that so dificult to understand?

Jan.
Click to expand...

Predetermine is to arrange something in advance. Now if god has foreknowledge of how his creatures will behave, they cannot be said to have free will which would entail the possibility of acting against god's will. But they cannot do so because god foresaw everything and went ahead and created us anyway. That is what Adstar is saying.

I prefer to talk of predestination but let's not quibble.

Talk to Adstar about what you find in scripture. The thing I find missing in this exchange is your joint ability to reason. That is not difficult to understand because reason would show you how nonsensical your beliefs are.
 
superluminal,

*huuuggggg*
Click to expand...

Nice aftershave.

Now, I've reproduced this here for your enjoyment:


1) God knows past, present, and future.

2) God creates fallible creatures for whatever godlike reason.

3) God condemns the faulty ones (who he knew ahead of time) to eternal torture.

Give a simple statement of your opinion of this behavior, that you accept as fact, please.
Click to expand...

The definition of 'theist' is; one who believes in God (basically)

Can you give references to back up your claims.

Jan.
 
Jan Ardena said:
Myles,



I do understand what you are saying, but ask yourself; what is predetermination?

Definition:
1. arrange in advance: to decide, agree, or arrange something in advance

The human being is predetermined to choose spirituality or materiality. There is nothing in the definition which indicates one course of action.
Neither is there anything in any scripture to indicate the human being has only one course of action to take.
Is that so dificult to understand?

Jan.
Click to expand...

Myles said:
Predetermine is to arrange something in advance. Now if god has foreknowledge of how his creatures will behave, they cannot be said to have free will which would entail the possibility of acting against god's will. But they cannot do so because god foresaw everything and went ahead and created us anyway. That is what Adstar is saying.

I prefer to talk of predestination but let's not quibble.

Talk to Adstar about what you find in scripture. The thing I find missing in this exchange is your joint ability to reason. That is not difficult to understand because reason would show you how nonsensical your beliefs are.
Click to expand...

predetermination

noun
1. (theology) being determined in advance; especially the doctrine (usually associated with Calvin) that God has foreordained every event throughout eternity (including the final salvation of mankind) [syn: predestination]
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/predetermination
 
Jan,

1) God knows past, present, and future.
Do you believe this?


2) God creates fallible creatures for whatever godlike reason.
Do you believe this?


3) God condemns the faulty ones (who he knew ahead of time) to eternal torture.
Do you believe this?
 
QuestionEverything said:
Does intellect qualify as a fault? Shit I guess I'm damned! :mufc:
Click to expand...

Intellect marks you out as a godless troublemaker. We don't want your type here.

I like your picture of His Holiness. He hasn't heard what Jesus said about humility. Cardinals are Princes of the Church, Bishops have their rings kissed - pun intended - and so on. Then there's the dressing up as a sign of rank. Pointy hats and robes.

How about modesty ? God's representative earth, no less.

All religion is a business. All the greedy clergy have no hope of getting through the eye of that needle. Evidence that god is on the side of the atheists ?
 
Myles said:
Predetermine is to arrange something in advance. Now if god has foreknowledge of how his creatures will behave, they cannot be said to have free will which would entail the possibility of acting against god's will. But they cannot do so because god foresaw everything and went ahead and created us anyway. That is what Adstar is saying.

I prefer to talk of predestination but let's not quibble.

Talk to Adstar about what you find in scripture. The thing I find missing in this exchange is your joint ability to reason. That is not difficult to understand because reason would show you how nonsensical your beliefs are.
Click to expand...

Myles, I do believe you are being problematic because you personally don't like theism, as opposed to simply just being an atheist. The truth of the matter is, the chances are, neither of us knows for sure. I am not saying I am right and you are wrong, I merely enjoy discussing these issues for a number of reasons.
The fact is, what you thought was an air tight argument in favour of atheism, isn't, and now you cannot go any further, so you choose to sling mud at what you personally despise, in a last ditch attempt to gain support, in a forum where most people would support you anyway. This smacks of desparatism. My advise is, give it up, no one can win, and come and join Superluminal and I in a group hug. :)

Love
Jan.
 
Enmos said:
predetermination

noun
1. (theology) being determined in advance; especially the doctrine (usually associated with Calvin) that God has foreordained every event throughout eternity (including the final salvation of mankind) [syn: predestination]
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/predetermination
Click to expand...

So why waste time with all that sin, repentance and forgiveness ?

We are all guaranteed a place in heaven, so sin as much as you please/

The " including the final salvation of mankind bit" is an escape clause. A feeble attempt to bypass the implications of what went before.

You may not find Adstar to happy about all this. The Holy Spirit talks to him. He knows there is a lake of fire awaiting many of us.
 
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