More young men in jail than college

[S.A.M.]

S.A.M:


If your black peers (and whitey, in some cases) keeps telling you that you are discriminated against, and that you're going to end up a destitute loser, you're probably going to act the role. Why bother struggling against a system you think is eventually going to inevitably destroy you anyway?

For example, look at Malaysia. Laws are skewed in favour of the Malay natives (who are the dominant majority in the country), yet the immigrant Chinese pretty much dominate despite this. This demonstrates that with the correct mindset, an ethnic group can overcome mild to moderate discrimination.

The best way to help blackey is to withdraw all special privileges, and reinforce that they are responsible for their own destiny, that they aren't shackled and whipped by whitey any more. They have just as much potential as a white man, and if they apply themselves, they will certainly achieve.

This victim mentality merely does blacks harm, not good.

This is not a race thread.

 

[Read-Only]

This is not a race thread.

I agree, Sam. However, race and racism IS a part of the overall equation in answer to some of the questions you've posed.

Black children are told repeatedly by their peers (fellow children) not to make any effort to achieve. "Don't be stupid and do that stuff - you ain't going nowhere nohow!"

That has also become all to common among White kids as well - and especially so among Hispanics. Far too many are programmed for failure at home and it's constantly reinforced by every kid on every corner.

I still maintain that above all else, this entire problem has it's roots in the the home - and that's the ONLY place where it can be corrected. All the social programs in the world cannot overcome poor (or no) parenting.

Throwing money at the problem is actually THE worst thing to do because it has three very strong negative consequences. The first is a waste of funds that could certainly be better used elsewhere and the second is that it produces a society that only becomes even more dependent on it. And the third is by far the worst of them all - it allows parents to assume even less responsibility than ever before. ("Let the XYZ program train my kids.")

 

[mountainhare]

S.A.M

This is not a race thread.

Don't flash the rolly eyed emoticon at me, you little b.

Your first post:

The number of black men in prison has grown to five times the rate it was twenty years ago. Today, more African-American men are in jail than in college. In 2000 there were 791,600 black men in prison and 603,032 enrolled in college.

 

[S.A.M.]

Yeah, but I am more interested the problem as a teenage one rather than assume that black children have special circumstances.

 

[mountainhare]

Why?

Why can't we take into consideration racial and cultural differences? If we don't do this, then we are only getting 1/4 of the picture, IMHO.

If you didn't want to focus on race, you shouldn't have only posted the stat's for blacks.

 

[S.A.M.]

S.A.M



Don't flash the rolly eyed emoticon at me, you little b.

Your first post:

I figured you could not be bothered to read the whole thread, so this is only a warning.

This is not a race thread, this is an education thread. I'm going to ignore your abbrev attempt at insults and if you cannot participate in the discussion in a civil manner I am going to suggest you stay away from it.

 

[S.A.M.]

Why?

Why can't we take into consideration racial and cultural differences? If we don't do this, then we are only getting 1/4 of the picture, IMHO.

If you didn't want to focus on race, you shouldn't have only posted the stat's for blacks.

So lets focus on the one fourth, since the other three fourth is discussed ad nauseum in other threads.

 

[mountainhare]

Fine, count me out. I'm not taking part in a thread where important elements and factors are ignored out of political correctness.

 

[S.A.M.]

Consider it done.

 

[S.A.M.]

I agree, Sam. However, race and racism IS a part of the overall equation in answer to some of the questions you've posed.

Black children are told repeatedly by their peers (fellow children) not to make any effort to achieve. "Don't be stupid and do that stuff - you ain't going nowhere nohow!"

That has also become all to common among White kids as well - and especially so among Hispanics. Far too many are programmed for failure at home and it's constantly reinforced by every kid on every corner.

I still maintain that above all else, this entire problem has it's roots in the the home - and that's the ONLY place where it can be corrected. All the social programs in the world cannot overcome poor (or no) parenting.

Throwing money at the problem is actually THE worst thing to do because it has three very strong negative consequences. The first is a waste of funds that could certainly be better used elsewhere and the second is that it produces a society that only becomes even more dependent on it. And the third is by far the worst of them all - it allows parents to assume even less responsibility than ever before. ("Let the XYZ program train my kids.")

The way I see it there are two approaches:

1. there is a problem of racism and hence the necessity of affirmative action (since one is dealing with attitude adjustment not only in the blacks but also in the whites)

2. there is a problem beyond race, one that is related to the whole society, and this approach benefits both the majority and minority communities, so is a better approach overall than attempting to tackle the first.

I am more interested in exploring the second aspect. Does that make sense?

 

[Read-Only]

The way I see it there are two approaches:

1. there is a problem of racism and hence the necessity of affirmative action (since one is dealing with attitude adjustment not only in the blacks but also in the whites)

2. there is a problem beyond race, one that is related to the whole society, and this approach benefits both the majority and minority communities, so is a better approach overall than attempting to tackle the first.

I am more interested in exploring the second aspect. Does that make sense?

Yes, it makes perfect sense.

And at the risk of repeating myself ad nauseum, I believe the problem is clearly identified - poor parenting. And also repeating, what possible suggestions do you or anyone have to FORCE parents do meet their responsibilities?

 

[MacGyver1968]

Ok...I just got home from work, and was engaged in this thread earlier in the day, and maybe I'm new this board, but Sam, could you please explain to me why Willy was banned? I've read every page of this thread and frankly, I don't see any "trolling". You started this thread quoting statistics on blacks...then half way through, you start saying the thread is not about race. Then why did you bring up race in your OP? Please make up your mind.

I for one, will not respond to any more of your threads, for fear of disagreeing with you might get me banned.

-Mitch

 

[S.A.M.]

Ok...I just got home from work, and was engaged in this thread earlier in the day, and maybe I'm new this board, but Sam, could you please explain to me why Willy was banned? I've read every page of this thread and frankly, I don't see any "trolling". You started this thread quoting statistics on blacks...then half way through, you start saying the thread is not about race. Then why did you bring up race in your OP? Please make up your mind.

I for one, will not respond to any more of your threads, for fear of disagreeing with you might get me banned.

-Mitch

For trolling. While he may continue his crusade to warn us of the perils of criminal blacks in society in other threads, I want to discuss education here. I gave him 3 warnings. And I did not bring up race in the OP, I quoted the statistics as they were given, but all my questions have been aimed at education not race, as I have repeatedly said from the beginning.

 

[S.A.M.]

Yes, it makes perfect sense.

And at the risk of repeating myself ad nauseum, I believe the problem is clearly identified - poor parenting. And also repeating, what possible suggestions do you or anyone have to FORCE parents do meet their responsibilities?

What does that say about individualism as a social strategy?

Seems like the lack of responsibility is pervasive; if adolescents are to be held responsible for their shortcomings, and parents have their own lives that do not include parental responsibilities it would appear to require social restructuring on a grand scale to meet the consequences.

Do you suppose society will rise to meet this challenge? I have already seen several women who work part time to accommodate their children's needs, is this a sign for the future?

I suspect this will be a problem in India as we develop, it would be good to see some input on what underlies such attitudes.

 

[mountainhare]

MacGy:

You started this thread quoting statistics on blacks...then half way through, you start saying the thread is not about race. Then why did you bring up race in your OP? Please make up your mind.

Precisely my point. I wouldn't have responded to this thread, but upon reading that Willy has been banned, and in view of SAM's attitude on this thread towards others, I can't resist.

It is a gross abuse of power to employ your mod powers in a discussion that you are participating in. That's the equivalent of a team member also functioning as an umpire during the Superbowl finals. If someone must ban and hand out infractions, let it be a moderator who is relatively impartial.

, but all my questions have been aimed at education not race,

What happens if certain races come from cultural backgrounds where there is no emphasis on getting a good education? Shouldn't we examine the disparity between particular segments of society?
Any analysis of a system of dilemma involves not just looking at means and averages, but also at discrepancies between demographics. How the hell can we disregard the endemic of truancy amongst blacks, when you yourself posted stat's for blacks in the initial post?

This thread reminds me of your previous one on the 'Religious Discussions' forums, where you asked atheists to justify believing in atheism, without attacking or criticizing theism. Given that the two are intimately linked, it's pretty damn hard to examine them in isolation.

People aren't prancing to your tune, so you're rattling sabres and abusing your mod powers. Sort of ironic, coming from someone who is so vocal against American censorship and deprivation of civil rights. Rest assured that I'm complaining about your behaviour.

 

[S.A.M.]

Start your own thread, stop hijacking this one.

 

[madanthonywayne]

The way I see it there are two approaches:

1. there is a problem of racism and hence the necessity of affirmative action (since one is dealing with attitude adjustment not only in the blacks but also in the whites)

2. there is a problem beyond race, one that is related to the whole society, and this approach benefits both the majority and minority communities, so is a better approach overall than attempting to tackle the first.

I am more interested in exploring the second aspect. Does that make sense?

But there is no evidence of an education crisis, at least none has been presented here. For someone who wanted to discuss "education", you've chosen a horribly misleading OP that points out a problem with crime among blacks rather than any problem with education.

Statistics show that pretty much everyone who's qualified goes to college. In fact, in the case of blacks, more go than are qualified (which may help account for their poor college graduation rates).

The only group really underrepresented in college is Hispanics, but that's easy to understand since there are so many immigrants among that population.

 

[S.A.M.]

But there is no evidence of an education crisis, at least none has been presented here. For someone who wanted to discuss "education", you've chosen a horribly misleading OP that points out a problem with crime among blacks rather than any problem with education.

Statistics show that pretty much everyone who's qualified goes to college. In fact, in the case of blacks, more go than are qualified (which may help account for their poor college graduation rates).

The only group really underrepresented in college is Hispanics, but that's easy to understand since there are so many immigrants among that population.

Its pretty much a topic of discussion in education so I fail to see what you mean.

Over the last decade, between 347,000 and 544,000 10th- through 12th-grade students left school each year without successfully completing a high school program (table C1). Status dropout rates represent the proportion of young people ages 16 through 24 who are out of school and who have not earned a high school credential. Status rates are higher than event rates because they include all dropouts in this age range, regardless of when they last attended school.

* In October 2000, some 3.8 million young adults were not enrolled in a high school program and had not completed high school. These youths accounted for 10.9 percent of the 34.6 million 16- through 24-year-olds in the United States in 2000 (table A, figure A, and table 3). As noted with event rates, status rates declined from the early 1970s into the late 1980s, but since then have remained stable (figure 2 and table B5).
* The status dropout rate for Whites in 2000 remained lower than the rate for Blacks, but over the past three decades, the difference between the rates for Whites and Blacks has narrowed (figure 2). However, this narrowing of the gap occurred during the 1970s and 1980s. Since 1990, the gap has remained fairly constant. In addition, Hispanic young adults in the United States continued to have a relatively high status dropout rate when compared to Asian/Pacific Islanders, Whites, or Blacks (table A and table 3).
* In 2000, the status dropout rate for Asian/Pacific Islander young adults was lower than for young adults from all other racial/ethnic groups. The status rate for Asian/Pacific Islanders was 3.8 percent compared with 27.8 percent for Hispanics, 13.1 percent for Blacks, and 6.9 percent for Whites (table 3).
* In 2000, 44.2 percent of Hispanic young adults born outside of the United States were high school dropouts. Hispanic young adults born within the United States were much less likely to be dropouts. However, when looking at just those young adults born within the United States, Hispanic youths were still more likely to be dropouts than other young adults (table 3).

High School Completion Rates
High school completion rates represent the proportion of 18- through 24-year-olds, not currently enrolled in high school or below, who have completed a high school diploma or an equivalent credential, including a General Educational Development (GED) credential.

* In 2000, 86.5 percent of all 18- through 24-year-olds not enrolled in high school had completed high school. Completion rates rose slightly from the early 1970s to the late 1980s, but have remained fairly constant during the 1990s (figure A and table B7).
* High school completion rates increased for White and Black young adults between the early 1970s and late 1980s, but have remained relatively constant in the 1990s. By 2000, 91.8 percent of White and 83.7 percent of Black 18- through 24-year-olds had completed high school (table A, figure 3, table 4, and table B7).
* White and Asian/Pacific Islander young adults in 2000 were more likely than their Black and Hispanic peers to have completed high school (table A and table 4).

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2002/droppub_2001/

Dropout rates high, but fixes under way
Survey: 9 of 10 students had passing grades when they left.
By Amanda Paulson | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
CHICAGO – They're the kids who fall through the cracks, the ones who rarely get extra attention or tutoring - who, very often, disappear even from the statistics.

But high school dropouts are getting increasing attention as groundbreaking studies show how alarming the problem is. Nearly a third of high school students don't graduate on time; among blacks, Hispanics, and native Americans, it's almost half.

Now, a new survey, released Thursday, suggests that the problem, while deep, can be fixed. Most students don't drop out because they can't do the work. Nearly 90 percent had passing grades when they left school, according to the survey of dropouts by Civic Enterprises. Their major reason for opting out? The classes were too boring.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0303/p01s02-legn.html

 

[madanthonywayne]

If you wanted to discuss education instead of race, what you just posted should have been the OP.

 

[iceaura]

1) Race and crime are important features of the OP.

2) Willy was trolling, and warned: SAM was right to eject him from the thread.

3) Too many people go to college now - college curricula are being watered down everywhere, and places like the U of Minnesota are spending a third of their undergraduate efforts on remedial courses - high school level classes - in some areas (math).

4) The breakdown by race is one pattern - the breakdown by sex is even more significant. Boys are dropping out and getting jailed, girls are pulling grades and going to college, and not just among blacks.