More young men in jail than college

[Read-Only]

Well, Fraggle, that report seems to blow your claim of "all reports." It clearly shows the Black mortality rate for drug use/abuse is exactly TWICE that of Non-hispanic whites, in Arizona, at least. And I suspect it about the same in all cities and states. Do you entend to counter that report by saying, perhaps, that Whites are more responsible drug users and therefore don't die from them as often? Eh?

 

[Read-Only]

That would imply that an increasing number of young people lack motivation to apply themselves.

What, in your opinion, could this be a result of?

Precisely what I've already described in detail, Sam. Laziness (an unwillingness to work simply because they don't WANT to - and school IS work, after all). They are not taught by their parents to respect themselves, have some self-confidence, drive and ambition. And then all of that is reinforced by their peers and their choice of music. And, believe it or not, music has a stong influence on society - especially it's younger members.

 

[S.A.M.]

Precisely what I've already described in detail, Sam. Laziness (an unwillingness to work simply because they don't WANT to - and school IS work, after all). They are not taught by their parents to respect themselves, have some self-confidence, drive and ambition. And then all of that is reinforced by their peers and their choice of music. And, believe it or not, music has a stong influence on society - especially it's younger members.

Poor parenting and demotivational music? Hmm.

And of course, they will continue the cycle, making it vicious.

So what would help to reverse or slow the trend?

 

[Willy]

So what would help to reverse or slow the trend?

I would tell you but you would give me another "infraction"

 

[Read-Only]

Poor parenting and demotivational music? Hmm.

And of course, they will continue the cycle, making it vicious.

So what would help to reverse or slow the trend?

Ahh, but THAT'S the part that will get you the Noble Prize!

There's not a great deal that be done that I can think of. And that's primarily because of the liberal attitude that would prevent parents from being held responsible for the actions and underachievement of their children. Many would see such an approach as a violation of civil rights. But that's PRECISELY where the problem originates - parents and peers.

Here's another bit of information for you to digest. It used to be that kids were taught responsibility and self-worth by giving them chores to do and REQUIRING that they be done. That provided some very essential training that lasted a lifetime. In lots of ways - like in the inner-cities - we've lost the opportunity to do such things. No grass to cut, leaves to rake, pets to feed and water, etc. But even that isn't the whole story because far too many parents today don't even make the kids do their homework or take out the garbage. No wonder they grow into little brats - they're not made to do anything constructive.

 

[S.A.M.]

Ahh, but THAT'S the part that will get you the Noble Prize!

There's not a great deal that be done that I can think of. And that's primarily because of the liberal attitude that would prevent parents from being held responsible for the actions and underachievement of their children. Many would see such an approach as a violation of civil rights. But that's PRECISELY where the problem originates - parents and peers.

Here's another bit of information for you to digest. It used to be that kids were taught responsibility and self-worth by giving them chores to do and REQUIRING that they be done. That provided some very essential training that lasted a lifetime. In lots of ways - like in the inner-cities - we've lost the opportunity to do such things. No grass to cut, leaves to rake, pets to feed and water, etc. But even that isn't the whole story because far too many parents today don't even make the kids do their homework or take out the garbage. No wonder they grow into little brats - they're not made to do anything constructive.

I don't disagree with what you say.

What are the differences in the way parents "see" their children today?

Is there a reluctance to give responsibility to children?

 

[Read-Only]

I don't disagree with what you say.

What are the differences in the way parents "see" their children today?

Is there a reluctance to give responsibility to children?

That's a good question - and I also have the answer. Far too many parents today see their kids as "things" to be placated so that they won't interfere with what the parent wants to do. They buy them video games, give them a TV to watch - things like that. In other words they don't want to be parents and take the responsibility of parenting - it takes work and effort to do that!

And you can bet that the poor kids recognize all of that for exactly what it is. Is it any wonder they grow up lazy and will do only what they want to do? That's precisely what they were taught.

 

[S.A.M.]

Hmm it seems the data do not corroborate this, or is it due to differences in data collection methods?

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0779196.html

 

[Read-Only]

Hmm it seems the data do not corroborate this, or is it due to differences in data collection methods?

Yes, Sam, I believe you're correct. The methods HAVE changed since the early 90s.

Another hidden element is the fact that schools quickly and as quietly as possible "write off" drop-outs. And the reason is self-survival. Since they're being measured on educational progress (what a school is supposed to produce) it's in their best interests to do creative accounting. Many who have actually dropped out are now categorized as "in home schooling." That makes the numbers the school reports indicate that they are doing a much better job than they actually are.

 

[S.A.M.]

I'm trying to see if I can better comparisons but they appear to be hard to find.

 

[Read-Only]

I'm trying to see if I can better comparisons but they appear to be hard to find.

I understand. Some things like that aren't always readily accessible - perhaps because the results are a bit embarrasing?

 

[S.A.M.]

I understand. Some things like that aren't always readily accessible - perhaps because the results are a bit embarrasing?

Academically it seems that ignoring negative results is an endemic disease.

 

[Read-Only]

Academically it seems that ignoring negative results is an endemic disease.

Heh! Seems you've uncovered an important truism.

 

[Willy]

I'm trying to see if I can better comparisons but they appear to be hard to find.

May I be of some help?

The Regrets of a School Dropout
Half of Black Males Fail to Graduate With Their Class

By Avis Thomas-Lester
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, June 15, 2007

If I hadn't dropped out, I wouldn't have to go through this now," said Campbell of his attempt to earn a high school equivalency diploma. "I thought about going back after I left" school, "but I thought I would be too old. I was kind of embarrassed."

In dropping out, Campbell became part of a disturbing trend -- black male students who walk out on their own education. Statistics show that more than 50 percent of black male students fail to graduate with their class each year. In some urban jurisdictions such as New York and Chicago, upwards of two-thirds of them leave high school before graduation, according to a study by the Schott Foundation for Public Education.

In Maryland, 46 percent of black male teenagers dropped out during the 2003-04 school year, compared with 22 percent of white males. In Virginia, 47 percent dropped out, compared with 27 percent of white male students, and in the District, the dropout rate for black males was 51 percent, compared with 5 percent of white males, the report said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/14/AR2007061402070.html

 

[S.A.M.]

May I be of some help?

The Regrets of a School Dropout
Half of Black Males Fail to Graduate With Their Class

By Avis Thomas-Lester
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, June 15, 2007

If I hadn't dropped out, I wouldn't have to go through this now," said Campbell of his attempt to earn a high school equivalency diploma. "I thought about going back after I left" school, "but I thought I would be too old. I was kind of embarrassed."

In dropping out, Campbell became part of a disturbing trend -- black male students who walk out on their own education. Statistics show that more than 50 percent of black male students fail to graduate with their class each year. In some urban jurisdictions such as New York and Chicago, upwards of two-thirds of them leave high school before graduation, according to a study by the Schott Foundation for Public Education.

In Maryland, 46 percent of black male teenagers dropped out during the 2003-04 school year, compared with 22 percent of white males. In Virginia, 47 percent dropped out, compared with 27 percent of white male students, and in the District, the dropout rate for black males was 51 percent, compared with 5 percent of white males, the report said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/14/AR2007061402070.html

I said comparisons. What are the equivalent reasons for other young people?

 

[madanthonywayne]

What is happening here?

“According to a report by the Justice Policy Institute in 2002, the number of black men in prison has grown to five times the rate it was twenty years ago. Today, more African-American men are in jail than in college. In 2000 there were 791,600 black men in prison and 603,032 enrolled in college. In 1980, there were 143,000 black men in prison and 463,700 enrolled in college.

I don't have the latest figures. But this is an incredibly poor outlook for the future unless urgent steps are taken to remedy/reverse this situation.:bawl:

Flower children? LSD? Rock and Roll? Disco? Smack? Aging?

I am less interested in the issue of race, more in the decline of education, and its possible causes.

What has illegitimacy to do with schooling?

That does not explain the overall general increase in dropouts over the last 20 years.

Hmm it seems the data do not corroborate this, or is it due to differences in data collection methods?

Sam, what the hell are you talking about? This whole thread you've been obsessed with high school dropout rate which have nothing to do with the story in the OP.

The OP was comparing the absolute number of black men in prison to the number in college. Why did you then jump to the conclusion that this means there was an increase in high school dropouts?

The problem is an increase in crime among black men, not an increase in high school drops outs (as the above table shows, that has actually been improving).

Blacks, who constitute only 12% of the population, account for over 40% of the prison population. And if you count only those sentenced to more than one year, it's even worse! Black men are an absolute majority! That is astounding.

At yearend 2004 black males (551,300) outnumbered white males (449,300) and
Hispanic males (260,600) among inmates with a sentence of more than 1 year. More than 40% of all sentenced male inmates were black.

And look at the relative incarceration rates:

About 8.4% of black males between ages 25 and 29 were in State or Federal prison, compared to 2.5% of Hispanic males and 1.2% of white males in the same age group. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/p04.txt

So black men are seven times more likely to go to prison than white men. And regarding their attendence rate at college:

The college-going rate of black students was equal to or greater than the rate of white students, at every income level except the highest

So while the black college attendance rate is a little lower than the white, the difference is primarily due to lower average income and lower scores on entrance exams. But overall:

The portion of all college freshmen that is black (11%) or Hispanic (7%) is very similar to their shares of the college-ready population (9% for both). http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/ewp_03.htm

So the college attendence rate for blacks does not account for the fact that there are more black men in prison than college.

It's not that they don't have enough black males in college, it's that they have too many in prison!

You might argue that this is due to poor education, and I'm sure that , in part, it is. But I would say it has more to do with collapse of the black family in the inner city and the consequent lack of appropriate black male role models.

 

[S.A.M.]

I am interested in the change in educational achievement over time, I used one example of it in the OP, but my thread title and questions are referring to what I am interested in asking.

Besides, one may argue that more black men in prison is reflective of judicial misconduct rather than criminal tendencies.

 

[madanthonywayne]

I am interested in the change in educational achievement over time, I used one example of it in the OP, but my thread title and questions are referring to what I am interested in asking.

Then perhaps you might provide some more concrete examples of what you are interested in, as the OP (in my opinion) has little to do with any decrease in educational achievement

Besides, one may argue that more black men in prison is reflective of judicial misconduct rather than criminal tendencies.

You can argue that the earth is flat, that doesn't make it so. Do you really think that racism is responsible for a 700% higher rate of incarceration among blacks than whites? Have you been to any primarily black areas in the US? I doubt judicial misconduct is responsible for the bullets flying around and burned out storefronts.

 

[Willy]

"Every race has an equal capacity to learn and contribute to civilization and any differences are caused by prejudice and racism. The fact that white skins are associated with civilization is merely a quirk of fortune and coincidence. Any attempt to distinguish the races is motivated by paranoia and hatred. We must prevent any investigation into the subject and work to melt society together into a receless, nationless, harmonious utopia".

Roger Roots

 

[S.A.M.]

Then perhaps you might provide some more concrete examples of what you are interested in, as the OP (in my opinion) has little to do with any decrease in educational achievement

You can argue that the earth is flat, that doesn't make it so. Do you really think that racism is responsible for a 700% higher rate of incarceration among blacks than whites? Have you been to any primarily black areas in the US? I doubt judicial misconduct is responsible for the bullets flying around and burned out storefronts.

This is not a race thread, this is a thread on education.

Are you saying that other groups like Hispanics and non-Hispanic whites have not suffered a decline in educational achievement?

That the ratio of people going to college (or staying in school) has not dropped across the society?