A natural world is built on options, variables and potential. I think artificial intelligence can only be intelligent if it opens up, accepts, integrates, changes, and learns.
Computers - I haven't got a clue really!
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Info on heaven
- Thread starter Gerhard Kemmerer
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A natural world is built on options, variables and potential. I think artificial intelligence can only be intelligent if it opens up, accepts, integrates, changes, and learns.
Computers - I haven't got a clue really!
I know less than most people on that subject, but I had to consider it when reading out of body experiences and possible explanations for it.
I was raised that in heaven you wouldn't know anyone. That way you wouldn't be sad when you realized some friends/family weren't there. You also couldn't see earth, so you wouldn't be sad missing people, or seeing what they do. Guardian angels were never family members
I take that you think it's oblivious.
We assume personal identity is formed with time and experience, and it is who we are, so if we loose that, through some altered memory, it might as well be someone else up there.
There are some themes of heaven that teach that heaven will settle on earth in about a thousand years after earth is destroyed, and not all include that destruction, just a makeover of earth. So I guess by that, people will have to come to terms with life on earth sooner or later.
The etherical ideas of heaven go hand in hand with a disconnected mind set, and I noted that many societies in the past, butchered themselves out of existance through the aid of strange afterlife ideas.
yep, I was raised with that thought as well. But There wasn't a 1000 yr time limit. It was just after Armageddon
You would probably be aware of numerous versions of those events, which are put forward, mainly by Christendom.
What puzzles me is that cultures who have had no apparent contact with either Christianity or Judaism include various beliefs that match up.
For eg, the global stories of creation and the flood, and in some cases the Messiah story, some Australian natives keeping the laws of Moses, etc. Proselyting may have had something to do with it, a recent exposure likely, unless there was some common ancestory from the middle east etc. All possible.
It is interesting with tribal beliefs that their prime story is creation, which is sometimes post flood, seeing that new life "emerged from the watery chaos," but the legend of heaven is not as popular and almost always connected with world end time events, or new eras, rather than with the former.
The two philosophies of heaven - the immaterial and the material, or intangible and tangible, either demand connections with earth and related events, or not.
With the immaterial you can ghost it to heaven anytime, through the door of death unfortunately, so there are no set times for resurrections, world changes, migrations to earth or visa versa.
But with the material, it goes hand in hand with the legends of world events, creation, new eras, interventions etc. This gives the idea that heaven has a congruent history with earth, and with Divine dealings on earth, hence the need to allow heaven's jurisdictions to preside over human affairs. In other words human sacrifice is unacceptable, stealing is an offense etc.
It is easy to understand why the immaterial, places an immediate disconnection between heaven and earth, an immediate release of the expectations of Divinity. However, both views find themselves enlisted in tradition, politics and religion, especially in large societies.
A previous reply has already outlined how the Persian and Greek empires influenced entire provinces, down as far as India.
While they promoted Pagan ideas and practices, they also imbibed whatever was left of their prey, and so a mixture of beliefs survived, just as it did with the almalgamation of Christianity and Paganism through the Roman Catholic empire.
With the immaterial you can ghost it to heaven anytime, through the door of death unfortunately, so there are no set times for resurrections, world changes, migrations to earth or visa versa.
But with the material, it goes hand in hand with the legends of world events, creation, new eras, interventions etc. This gives the idea that heaven has a congruent history with earth, and with Divine dealings on earth, hence the need to allow heaven's jurisdictions to preside over human affairs. In other words human sacrifice is unacceptable, stealing is an offense etc.
It is easy to understand why the immaterial, places an immediate disconnection between heaven and earth, an immediate release of the expectations of Divinity. However, both views find themselves enlisted in tradition, politics and religion, especially in large societies.
A previous reply has already outlined how the Persian and Greek empires influenced entire provinces, down as far as India.
While they promoted Pagan ideas and practices, they also imbibed whatever was left of their prey, and so a mixture of beliefs survived, just as it did with the almalgamation of Christianity and Paganism through the Roman Catholic empire.
I would like to know more details of the following:
Where is the "sea of glass?" What is the colour of the jasper walls - which variety of jasper? What are the dimensions of the 12 main gates? The wall is about 90 yards thick and high or about thirty stories. What is the set up and formation of the 12 foundations? What is the layout of the reception city (minimum of 12 - 14 miles square) in relation to the main temple? The answer to the last Q will give me the answer to where the sea of glass may be. Compass directions would help, as the city lies south of the pinnacle of the mountain (of heaven).
The location of the eight mountains/hills? Seven surround one called Mt Zion, which has a temple on it, estimated to be able to hold 150,000 to 200,000people?
It is supposedly circular, has 7 main supporting pillars, twelve monuments (in gold?) around it, and fir trees in the surounding gardens reaching up to 600ft.
The reception city, the main temple, the main street, the eight mountains, the sea of glass, and a major plain with a river are all pinnacle features, that have a specific layout which can be worked out with a couple more clues.
There are three major walls, the outer as above, the pinnacle area at least 240 miles long, with four (?) gates, and the temple area wall with 4 gates.
One of those 4 is a main gate, north, or east? There are twelve suburbs (around the city?) and a market place. Dimensions given in Ezekiel last chapters, any readers of the Hebrew language would be able to help.
Where is the "sea of glass?" What is the colour of the jasper walls - which variety of jasper? What are the dimensions of the 12 main gates? The wall is about 90 yards thick and high or about thirty stories. What is the set up and formation of the 12 foundations? What is the layout of the reception city (minimum of 12 - 14 miles square) in relation to the main temple? The answer to the last Q will give me the answer to where the sea of glass may be. Compass directions would help, as the city lies south of the pinnacle of the mountain (of heaven).
The location of the eight mountains/hills? Seven surround one called Mt Zion, which has a temple on it, estimated to be able to hold 150,000 to 200,000people?
It is supposedly circular, has 7 main supporting pillars, twelve monuments (in gold?) around it, and fir trees in the surounding gardens reaching up to 600ft.
The reception city, the main temple, the main street, the eight mountains, the sea of glass, and a major plain with a river are all pinnacle features, that have a specific layout which can be worked out with a couple more clues.
There are three major walls, the outer as above, the pinnacle area at least 240 miles long, with four (?) gates, and the temple area wall with 4 gates.
One of those 4 is a main gate, north, or east? There are twelve suburbs (around the city?) and a market place. Dimensions given in Ezekiel last chapters, any readers of the Hebrew language would be able to help.
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Aqueous Id,
The ''notions'' originated long before the Christian era.
I doubt that anything originated from Greece.
The ''three worlds'', upper (heavenly), middle (earthly), and lower (hellish), were known with full explanation, from at least vedic times, and is mentioned in the scriptures and commientaries. The vedic literature is famed for being the oldest recorded scripture.
From the vedic perspective it is understood that these realms were created for the conditioned souls who desire to lord it. As their lust increased they become angry, because they never reached the pinnacle of their desires.
The different realms are created to house various stages of consciousness, just like a prison is created to house various types of consciousness. People who have a different understand of the law.
jan.
The ''notions'' originated long before the Christian era.
I doubt that anything originated from Greece.
The ''three worlds'', upper (heavenly), middle (earthly), and lower (hellish), were known with full explanation, from at least vedic times, and is mentioned in the scriptures and commientaries. The vedic literature is famed for being the oldest recorded scripture.
From the vedic perspective it is understood that these realms were created for the conditioned souls who desire to lord it. As their lust increased they become angry, because they never reached the pinnacle of their desires.
The different realms are created to house various stages of consciousness, just like a prison is created to house various types of consciousness. People who have a different understand of the law.
jan.
Hi Jan!
I don't think the Greeks necessarily carried Zoroastrianism from Parthia into the Levant. That's one possibility. The other is that Persians themselves began interacting culturally with their western neighbors as a direct consequence of their brief conquest by the Greeks. Since the Levant is the gateway between Greece/Rome and Persia, I am attributing Alexander's conquests to the cause of this exchange.
Greek-Persian influence is seen in the era of the Maccabees. Bear in mind the Jews had been captive in Persia, but after Alexander, a common language existed between them. I'm working from the following premises:
Like all ancient peoples, the early Hebrews believed that the dead go down into the underworld and live there a colorless existence (comp. Isa. xiv. 15-19; Ezek. xxxii. 21-30).
Cite
The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture . . . As a matter of fact, eternal life was ascribed exclusively to God and to celestial beings who "eat of the tree of life and live forever" (Gen. iii. 22, Hebr.), whereas man by being driven out of the Garden of Eden was deprived of the opportunity of eating the food of immortality (see Roscher, "Lexikon der Griechischen und Römischen Mythologie," s.v. "Ambrosia").
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Where did the Christian idea come from? A Messiah who would redeem them and pave the way to eternal life in heaven? First you need a Messiah:
"The Messiah" (with the article and not in apposition with another word) is, however, not an Old Testament expression, but occurs for the first time in apocalyptic literature. Similarly, in all probability the use of the word "Mashiaḥ" to denote the Messianic king is not found earlier than the apocalyptic literature
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the idea of a personal Messiah is far from having that general prominence which one would, at first, be inclined to assume. Further, it has been seen how Deutero-Isaiah heralded Cyrus as the favorite of God, the hero called by God to introduce the new era of universal bliss. In like manner, no doubt, as Kampers has shown in his "Alexander der Grosse und die Idee des Weltimperiums in Prophetie und Sage," the Jewish contemporaries of Alexander the Great, dazzled by his glorious achievements, hailed him as the divinely appointed deliverer, the inaugurator of the period of universal peace promised by the Prophets
:Not until after the fall of the Maccabean dynasty, when the despotic government of Herod the Great and his family, and the increasing tyranny of the Roman empire had made their condition ever more unbearable, did the Jews seek refuge in the hope of a personal Messiah. They yearned for the promised deliverer of the house of David, who would free them from the yoke of the hated foreign usurper, would put an end to the impious Roman rule, and would establish His own reign of peace and justice in its place. In this way their hopes became gradually centered in the Messiah.
: It may be noted in this connection that the "Prayer for the Coming of the Messiah," as the version of it given both in the Babylonian and in the Palestinian recensions of the Shemoneh 'Esreh shows (see Nos. 14 and 15 respectively), can not have become an integral part of the daily prayers later than the time immediately following the destruction of the Temple, for in that period the "Shemoneh 'Esreh" received its present form.
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What influenced this change? The infusion of Zoroastrianism into Palestine is in full flower in the early Roman era:
"First, the figure of Satan, originally a servant of God, appointed by Him as His prosecutor, came more and more to resemble Ahriman, the enemy of God. Secondly, the figure of the Messiah, originally a future King of Israel who would save his people from oppression, evolved, in Deutero-Isaiah for instance, into a universal Savior very similar to the Iranian Saoshyant. Other points of comparison between Iran and Israel include the doctrine of the millennia; the Last Judgment; the heavenly book in which human actions are inscribed; the Resurrection; the final transformation of the earth; paradise on earth or in heaven; and hell." by J. Duchesne-Guillemin, University of Liege, Belgium
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In close proximity Mithraism appears in Rome.
"early Christianity ... in general, resembles Mithraism in a number of respects – enough to make Christian apologists scramble to invent creative theological explanations to account for the similarities."
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With all of that as pretext, I would add that Zoroastrianism, though quite old, was not operating in a vacuum. There is a common thread with Indo-Iranian beliefs, and thus the Persian Avesta and Gathas can be logically connected to the Vedas.
I haven't looked into whether the Vedas were influenced by the Persians or vice versa. But you point is well taken, these are very old beliefs, and they predate the popular notion of heaven from the late Judaic/early Christian period.
The Far Eastern religions that center around the virtual states of consciousness are remarkable in this regard. It might indicate that this world view developed after the influences that gave rise to Zoroastrianism. That's another point I haven't looked into to.
Jan Ardena; The ''notions'' originated long before the Christian era. I doubt that anything originated from Greece. The vedic literature is famed for being the oldest recorded scripture. jan.[/QUOTE said:
Aqueous Id,
Hi AqueosID,
my point is that, there is nothing prior to the vedas.
People believed in God, they didn't, and still don't, need religion to convince then to believe or not believe. Even as a child growing up in the sixties, a time when modern atheism was able to take hold, I saw that people believed in God. This would be exemplified through their conservative behaviour. It was the forthcoming generations that would move away from that position, till now the west is gradually becoming disillusioned, opting to live for today by maximising the gratification of senses.
What these great souls teach, is vedic knowledge to a particular people, at a partcular time, under particular circumstances. Religions are then conctructed from them.
At first these religions are fresh, then over time they become stale. Which is why using religions to justify belief or lack of belief in God is nonsensical. The sensible, and honest thing to do, is to focus purely on the words, and actions of these great souls, and find out if they have anything in common.
.
We understand what heaven is, even if we don't regard it as heaven, and we understand what hell is. The actual places are just places where the actuality of those understandings is all in all.
In prisons, the consciousness of the place is that of a prison, a place where you will find people who broke the law. In the A category section, the level of consciousness is different than in the category where people forgot to pay their parking fines. Similarly for some, a whore house is a heavenly place, also living in a place of beautiful scenery, with a a beautiful spouse and family, a healthy income and a long life, is a heavenly place.
The actual places (heaven/hell) are different degrees of various types of consciousness. If you try and look at it from that pov, it makes more sense.
jan.
Hi AqueosID,
my point is that, there is nothing prior to the vedas.
People believed in God, they didn't, and still don't, need religion to convince then to believe or not believe. Even as a child growing up in the sixties, a time when modern atheism was able to take hold, I saw that people believed in God. This would be exemplified through their conservative behaviour. It was the forthcoming generations that would move away from that position, till now the west is gradually becoming disillusioned, opting to live for today by maximising the gratification of senses.
What these great souls teach, is vedic knowledge to a particular people, at a partcular time, under particular circumstances. Religions are then conctructed from them.
At first these religions are fresh, then over time they become stale. Which is why using religions to justify belief or lack of belief in God is nonsensical. The sensible, and honest thing to do, is to focus purely on the words, and actions of these great souls, and find out if they have anything in common.
.We understand what heaven is, even if we don't regard it as heaven, and we understand what hell is. The actual places are just places where the actuality of those understandings is all in all.
In prisons, the consciousness of the place is that of a prison, a place where you will find people who broke the law. In the A category section, the level of consciousness is different than in the category where people forgot to pay their parking fines. Similarly for some, a whore house is a heavenly place, also living in a place of beautiful scenery, with a a beautiful spouse and family, a healthy income and a long life, is a heavenly place.
The actual places (heaven/hell) are different degrees of various types of consciousness. If you try and look at it from that pov, it makes more sense.
jan.
Aqueous Id,
Thanks for that well documented post.
While I collected the different views on heaven I did not make any conscious effort to see the overlapping and progressive of ideas from cultural and civil changes, and your previous contributions have also bought forward those important factors.
Thanks for that well documented post.
While I collected the different views on heaven I did not make any conscious effort to see the overlapping and progressive of ideas from cultural and civil changes, and your previous contributions have also bought forward those important factors.
Vedic scripture is reputedly the oldest known scriptures, as for when they were written differs according to various sources, between 2500/3000 to 5000/6000 years among scholars. Other sources claim them to have been written long before those times.
India is known by another name, ''Bharat'', and according to the puranic section of the vedas (history)), Bharat, ruled a large section (if not all) of the globe. These areas included Iran, and maybe more of the middle east. I'm not saying it is a fact, but it is a recorded history, so you can look into it for yourself.
The influence of vedic civilisation started to dampen, according to the scripture, at the onset of the new age (guna), Kali-yuga, which started approximately 5000 years ago.
jan.
Carl Jung's thesis was connected to the archetypes of collective unconscious. The archetypes of collective unconscious can be understood as unconscious firmware, based on human genetics, which define our human nature. He showed how similar symbolism and mythology can evolve in separated cultures, since the collective unconscious is common to all human and will project similar symbolism in all humans.
As an analogy, consider the space race of the 1960's. Both USA and USSR did this in top secret (isolation) from each other, yet both made it into space. There are many similarities, which to the casual observer means they were buddies sharing ideas. But in reality they were both projecting from the same unconscious factors common to humans so parallels would appear while both doing it separately.
If you look at the creative people out there, new songs appear not because someone copies another but because it is created anew. But since they use the same instruments and live at a given time we might assume copy cat influence. Just because they sing of love does not mean someone invented love and the rest copied. This is a common human experience that would appear even in a vacuum. The human connections are common and all that is needed are characters in local garb and custom.
I think the POV that all the heaven myth started in one place and were copied is misleading and is a projection of what researchers do; copy and slightly add. They assume everyone else did it this way. But people can create parallel without much external influence, especially if you are open to unconscious influence.
Relative to specific mythology, the symbols are a projection of the collective unconscious and map out the human psyche as a function of time. What is lost, retained and added as time goes on, reflects the psyche changing. One can tell much about human nature as a function of mythology.
Modern mythology involves space aliens. This is chosen since it allows projection but has more materialism credibility. It satisfies external pressures do use more sensory constraints. Aliens are scientifically possible so this helps even if these have as much proof as Thor or Zeus. The collective unconscious will continue to project, until it is conscious.
As an analogy, consider the space race of the 1960's. Both USA and USSR did this in top secret (isolation) from each other, yet both made it into space. There are many similarities, which to the casual observer means they were buddies sharing ideas. But in reality they were both projecting from the same unconscious factors common to humans so parallels would appear while both doing it separately.
If you look at the creative people out there, new songs appear not because someone copies another but because it is created anew. But since they use the same instruments and live at a given time we might assume copy cat influence. Just because they sing of love does not mean someone invented love and the rest copied. This is a common human experience that would appear even in a vacuum. The human connections are common and all that is needed are characters in local garb and custom.
I think the POV that all the heaven myth started in one place and were copied is misleading and is a projection of what researchers do; copy and slightly add. They assume everyone else did it this way. But people can create parallel without much external influence, especially if you are open to unconscious influence.
Relative to specific mythology, the symbols are a projection of the collective unconscious and map out the human psyche as a function of time. What is lost, retained and added as time goes on, reflects the psyche changing. One can tell much about human nature as a function of mythology.
Modern mythology involves space aliens. This is chosen since it allows projection but has more materialism credibility. It satisfies external pressures do use more sensory constraints. Aliens are scientifically possible so this helps even if these have as much proof as Thor or Zeus. The collective unconscious will continue to project, until it is conscious.
Jan,
I have only read about those sources from other authors, but never first hand, so it will be interesting.
I wanted to talk about another type of influence that was not driven by politics, and yes, India had great trade with the old empires. Very similar to Egypt's power. India was a part of a global community that existed before the Babylonian empire.
I have only read about those sources from other authors, but never first hand, so it will be interesting.
I wanted to talk about another type of influence that was not driven by politics, and yes, India had great trade with the old empires. Very similar to Egypt's power. India was a part of a global community that existed before the Babylonian empire.
Wellwisher, What you have said is similar to CC's post. All very interesting. What you pointed out about accumulated knowledge not all from outside influences got me thinking. I guess we are a product of both collective un/consciousness and what we experience through our senses.
What I have posted throughout the thread is an outline of the dimensions and a few basic features, is there anything in particular that you wanted to discuss? Some of the most vivid descriptions come from Indian writings. They are not afraid of colour and variety.
An interesting set of heaven symbolism is in revelations 21-2. What happens is slice of heaven descends to the earth; heavenly Jerusalem descending like a bride from heaven. Instead of heaven being in a place where the physical body cannot go, the two planes merge.