Info on heaven
- Thread starter Gerhard Kemmerer
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Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
Jung calls motifs which recur in nearly every society and nearly every era archetypes. He died before genetics became a modern science. But today we would say that archetypes are instincts hard-wired into the DNA in our brains by evolution.
The origin of most instincts is obvious. For example, any animal born without the instinct to flee from a larger animal with both eyes in front of its face will not live long enough to reproduce.
The origin of the instinct to believe in supernatural phenomena is not so easy to figure out. Perhaps it provided protection in an era whose bizarre dangers we can't imagine. Or it could just be a random mutation passed down by chance through genetic drift or a genetic bottleneck.
In warm southern climates like Mesopotamia, people's impression of Heaven is a nice cool place, whereas Hell is even hotter than where they live. Northern peoples, like the Norsemen, had just the opposite legends. When they died, they wanted to finally go somewhere warm.
The instincts of self preservation are certainly hard wired as you have pointed out, and you can see that the best functions were passed down, otherwise what use would they be?
The supernatural fears and hopes, are difficult to explain, because they are not basic survival instincts.
You also mentioned examples of how heaven would be imagined or taught to be a better place than the earthly experience, I guess the power of hope can also be a strong instinct to survive, and such a belief could have an impact on following generations.
Humans are continually subject to feeling vulnerable and unprotected, and the thought of a higher power would keep up the courage.
With functional instinct and inherited tendencies, we expect that the best functions should nurture life, and somehow it does not take long for us to figure it out.
As strong as self preservation is, the principles of preserving someone elses life are sometimes far stronger, and the risks can defy tremendous odds. So this winning principle, does engender the possibility of a perfect world, and hence also the belief in higher principles.
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
Yes, but as I said, they could just be random mutations passed down through a genetic bottleneck or by genetic drift. This happens with physical characteristics, why not with the DNA in our brain?
That wasn't me. The Western concept of Heaven as a place dead people go to and live in serenity is relatively new in Christianity--as is Hell. It's not in the Gospels.
Even though that "higher power" is the same one that brought them the predators, famines, bad weather, illness, infant mortality and everything else that makes them feel "vulnerable and unprotected" in the first place? Geeze humans are dumb.
We are a pack-social species like wolves, dolphins, gorillas and many others. We are programmed to depend on and care for the people we've known since birth: our pack-mates. Because of our particular set of strengths and weaknesses, members of these species are more successful cooperating as a pack than they would be living solitary lives like tigers. So our instinct directs us to help our pack-mates.
Our problem is that for the past 12,000 years we have been changing our way of life almost to that of a herd-social species. In the modern world we are required to live in harmony and cooperation with anonymous strangers. This goes against our instinct. Fortunately our singularly enormous forebrain gives us the ability to override instinctive behavior with reasoned and learned behavior. We've been doing alright with this transition, but nonetheless occasionally our Inner Caveman breaks loose and does something Paleolithic, like harming or stealing from someone who is not a member of our group of close family and friends.
Civilization generally survives these little lapses, so long as they are random outbursts from individuals. But if something happens that encourages an entire community to go Paleolithic all at once, so that their leaders cannot control them, or worse yet their leaders have also lost their veneer of civilization, then we have a problem. Egged on by their Inner Cavemen, entire communities, even entire nations, can attempt to kill each other, out of a Stone Age sense that the world isn't big enough for both of them.
Which brings us back to the topic of religion. There's something about the Abrahamic religions that causes their followers to rise up in orgies of violence every few generations, attempting to wipe out followers of competing religions; even people who believe in the same God, just a different prophet. It's happening right now. The Christians, Muslims and Jews are threatening to start a Nuclear Holy War, even though they all acknowledge each other as "Children of the Book."
So my thesis is that not only is belief in the supernatural not a survival trait for our species, it is actually a threat to our survival.
I get what you are saying, and pretty much saw it in your previous post, and I just wanted to quote the above as one of your key points.
I think what you are saying is that it is one thing to battle out a survival, but another thing to continue fighting when one knows better.
But our view of other conflicts is just that, and as an outsider I do not know the issues, which are certainly not as simple as differences in faiths, let alone the consquence of faith, if anything, it is the opposite workings within politics and circles of power.
However, I do not want to dismiss a treasure of knowledge about heaven, just because I may find it under a fiery dragon.
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
Abrahamists have been killing each other for centuries, specifically over the details of their faith. The era which we euphemistically call "the Reformation," when Christianity split into two factions, was a century of non-stop holy war. The Inquisition was part of that. So was the obliteration of both New World civilizations, including the burning of the Olmec/Maya/Aztec "heathen" libraries--although religion was not the only motivation.
I think the word you want is "lore," not knowledge.
Yazata
Valued Senior Member
Way back towards the beginning of the thread, I asked:
They are even more applicable if you are suggesting that heaven isn't "just a myth", that it literally (and physically?) exists and that its existence does have consequences for Earth.
You have been posting what appear to be exotic details about heaven's physical size and form.
But you don't tell us precisely what your sources are and how you supposedly know all these things.
Are you citing ancient texts? If so, then you need to specify which texts you're consulting and where in the texts the details about heaven were found.
Or are you obtaining some of this from your own or somebody else's mystical experiences and/or hallucinations? Or what?
Perhaps, if heaven existed.
But most of your posts seem to be about Jewish tradition.
You haven't really addressed Buddhist heavens, for example. The Buddhists imagine many different heavens, arranged hierarchically, both form-heavens and formless-heavens. These heavens are associated with the various 'jhanas', or levels of meditation. Each heaven in effect is a meditative experience imagined as if is a mode of being.
It's true that some Buddhist texts speak of very impressive heavens with things like jewel-like trees (suggestive of LSD-style visual experiences in my opinion), but I don't recall reading about any grand structures that correspond to the visions of God's throne in early medieval Jewish merkabah mysticism.
But the thing is, the Buddhists imagine multiple heavens, from lower to higher, and the highest Buddhist heavens don't have any physical form at all (corresponding to the higher formless meditations). They aren't physical places at all, even if they are still psychological places, so to speak. Modes of consciousness. That sounds very unlike what you are writing about in your posts.
If this thread is supposed to fall under the heading of 'comparative religion', then perhaps different religions' ideas about heaven(s) should actually be stated and compared. Since each religion likely says many things about heaven(s), in many places and in many contexts, not all of it consistent, and not all of it said with the same purposes in mind, we would need to specify which texts we are quoting.
Yet you persist in interpreting this kind of material as if it consisted of literal descriptions of what you suggest is one single physical place.
I don't know of any convincing reason to think that the many ancient heaven myths are all consistent with one another, let alone that they're all detailed descriptions of one transcendental or extraterrestrial place.
yazata said:
They are even more applicable if you are suggesting that heaven isn't "just a myth", that it literally (and physically?) exists and that its existence does have consequences for Earth.
You have been posting what appear to be exotic details about heaven's physical size and form.
But you don't tell us precisely what your sources are and how you supposedly know all these things.
Are you citing ancient texts? If so, then you need to specify which texts you're consulting and where in the texts the details about heaven were found.
Or are you obtaining some of this from your own or somebody else's mystical experiences and/or hallucinations? Or what?
Perhaps, if heaven existed.
But most of your posts seem to be about Jewish tradition.
You haven't really addressed Buddhist heavens, for example. The Buddhists imagine many different heavens, arranged hierarchically, both form-heavens and formless-heavens. These heavens are associated with the various 'jhanas', or levels of meditation. Each heaven in effect is a meditative experience imagined as if is a mode of being.
It's true that some Buddhist texts speak of very impressive heavens with things like jewel-like trees (suggestive of LSD-style visual experiences in my opinion), but I don't recall reading about any grand structures that correspond to the visions of God's throne in early medieval Jewish merkabah mysticism.
But the thing is, the Buddhists imagine multiple heavens, from lower to higher, and the highest Buddhist heavens don't have any physical form at all (corresponding to the higher formless meditations). They aren't physical places at all, even if they are still psychological places, so to speak. Modes of consciousness. That sounds very unlike what you are writing about in your posts.
If this thread is supposed to fall under the heading of 'comparative religion', then perhaps different religions' ideas about heaven(s) should actually be stated and compared. Since each religion likely says many things about heaven(s), in many places and in many contexts, not all of it consistent, and not all of it said with the same purposes in mind, we would need to specify which texts we are quoting.
Yet you persist in interpreting this kind of material as if it consisted of literal descriptions of what you suggest is one single physical place.
I don't know of any convincing reason to think that the many ancient heaven myths are all consistent with one another, let alone that they're all detailed descriptions of one transcendental or extraterrestrial place.
I am giving a summary of what I have collected in a life time, I could not even write a book on it.
If I am presenting the physical views of heaven, it is because that is what I have chosen to do, it does not mean that the Buddhist and other views cancel what I have bought forward. The etherical views of heaven are already prevalent, such as through the entertainment industries.
The idea of multilayered heavens is not constrained to Buddism, but found all over the world. It comes from an ancient understanding of the way that the universe exists through graduations from something eternal to the temporal. It was also once known that around every object, in particular planets and stars, was a bending of a force which produced layers of standing waves. These concepts became entwined in religion and so remarkably preserved. The modes of consciousness comes from meditation techniques that were used for other reasons that did not involve religion.
In regards to evidence from specific sources, tell me what you are reading from and we can go from there.
You may find the most details in the Christian Bible the KJV, which basically contains all the fundamental ideas of any physical heaven that reside in thousands of other fragmented sources. In a similar way that legends of the world wide flood exist in practically every culture and era known to man.
It just so happens that the Bible is the most preserved and possibly the only ancient text that has survived milleniums. Seeing that is the case, I could not avoid reading it while researching this topic.
If I am presenting the physical views of heaven, it is because that is what I have chosen to do, it does not mean that the Buddhist and other views cancel what I have bought forward. The etherical views of heaven are already prevalent, such as through the entertainment industries.
The idea of multilayered heavens is not constrained to Buddism, but found all over the world. It comes from an ancient understanding of the way that the universe exists through graduations from something eternal to the temporal. It was also once known that around every object, in particular planets and stars, was a bending of a force which produced layers of standing waves. These concepts became entwined in religion and so remarkably preserved. The modes of consciousness comes from meditation techniques that were used for other reasons that did not involve religion.
In regards to evidence from specific sources, tell me what you are reading from and we can go from there.
You may find the most details in the Christian Bible the KJV, which basically contains all the fundamental ideas of any physical heaven that reside in thousands of other fragmented sources. In a similar way that legends of the world wide flood exist in practically every culture and era known to man.
It just so happens that the Bible is the most preserved and possibly the only ancient text that has survived milleniums. Seeing that is the case, I could not avoid reading it while researching this topic.
About the jewel-like trees etc, I have heard and read that from sources out of India, China, Islamic writings and some Christian literature.
If what you said was new, I would still accept what you said on face value.
It would be in my mind for further reference. If I heard it from other sources unrelated to where you come from, that would be one reason to bring it out of the archives and take a closer look. It is just one way of accumulating info through comparison.
And of course, that collection will have my bias on it, which is that I only want to relate to something tangible like our world, and if there is something intangible, it better not be something weaker and lesser than what we have.
I came across legends of heaven while looking for ancient science and cosmology, and found out that the world we live in is made of invisible forces, but that heaven is also a product of those forces and so remains tangible.
If what you said was new, I would still accept what you said on face value.
It would be in my mind for further reference. If I heard it from other sources unrelated to where you come from, that would be one reason to bring it out of the archives and take a closer look. It is just one way of accumulating info through comparison.
And of course, that collection will have my bias on it, which is that I only want to relate to something tangible like our world, and if there is something intangible, it better not be something weaker and lesser than what we have.
I came across legends of heaven while looking for ancient science and cosmology, and found out that the world we live in is made of invisible forces, but that heaven is also a product of those forces and so remains tangible.
...the burning of the Olmec/Maya/Aztec "heathen" libraries--although religion was not the only motivation.I think the word you want is "lore," not knowledge.
It's a pity those records were burned (and stolen). And "lore" is applicable and sounds better!
Heaven's History
This is my last post so far as info on heaven is concerned, because the other things I have learned about it are not found in myths, legends and the major religions.
I have not found how old heaven is, except sayings of eternity. But I wanted to know of the earliest reference to it, so far as earthlings know, and here we can only go back to the beginning of earth or its creation.
Probably before that time, about 6000 years ago, there was a war in heaven. This is a common thread in legends. They all seem to understand that the first human couple forfeited a direct connection with heaven, and attribute this to them yeilding to the fallen angel.
The only feature of heaven that reveals all dealings with earth is the temple and its services, it was designed to bring back the connection between heaven and earth. This knowledge was first given to the Jewish nation, even though it was established in the beginning and known about by several generations. The early Christians (Jews) were quite aware of it and understood more about the model in heaven than previous generations.
During the dark ages this knowledge was obliterated and replaced by a system that celebrated the mass. This offered pardon through works, but the original system based in heaven offered pardon through faith.
With the reformation, knowledge of the real system began to emerge, bringing freedom into the civil world with it.
There is a copy of the ark with the "covenant" in it on earth. It belonged to the Jewish temple, and has not been found. Apparently it will be found at a crucial time when the world needs a deciding factor. One that puts the dividing line, not on profession, but on the heart.
As far as the Christian Bible shows, the entire service in heaven was predicted in about 500 BC, when it would begin, change, and how it will end in our time. These prophecies also delineate the successive world empires, in conjunction with these events, in particular the counterfeit system of religion on earth, and its modern offsprings. So if there was any evidence for heaven, it would be if those predictions were accurate to date, and more profoundly of the present and future.
This is my last post so far as info on heaven is concerned, because the other things I have learned about it are not found in myths, legends and the major religions.
I have not found how old heaven is, except sayings of eternity. But I wanted to know of the earliest reference to it, so far as earthlings know, and here we can only go back to the beginning of earth or its creation.
Probably before that time, about 6000 years ago, there was a war in heaven. This is a common thread in legends. They all seem to understand that the first human couple forfeited a direct connection with heaven, and attribute this to them yeilding to the fallen angel.
The only feature of heaven that reveals all dealings with earth is the temple and its services, it was designed to bring back the connection between heaven and earth. This knowledge was first given to the Jewish nation, even though it was established in the beginning and known about by several generations. The early Christians (Jews) were quite aware of it and understood more about the model in heaven than previous generations.
During the dark ages this knowledge was obliterated and replaced by a system that celebrated the mass. This offered pardon through works, but the original system based in heaven offered pardon through faith.
With the reformation, knowledge of the real system began to emerge, bringing freedom into the civil world with it.
There is a copy of the ark with the "covenant" in it on earth. It belonged to the Jewish temple, and has not been found. Apparently it will be found at a crucial time when the world needs a deciding factor. One that puts the dividing line, not on profession, but on the heart.
As far as the Christian Bible shows, the entire service in heaven was predicted in about 500 BC, when it would begin, change, and how it will end in our time. These prophecies also delineate the successive world empires, in conjunction with these events, in particular the counterfeit system of religion on earth, and its modern offsprings. So if there was any evidence for heaven, it would be if those predictions were accurate to date, and more profoundly of the present and future.
Gregg Schaffter
Registered Member
Even though almost all religions relate their heaven to the same factors, doesn't mean that they are not just based on one truth.
...I take it you mean that heaven factors are not based on one truth, even though there are similarities.
Absolutely, but all views eventually fall into either of two catergories, the material and the immaterial, the natural life and the immortal soul theories, respectively.
The latter is most common today, and is based on rumours or manifestations of contacting the 'spirits' of the dead. This view of an inherent never ending ghost within, is an old one that started at the beginning of the world according to traditions, both Pagan and Christian.
The ancient symbol for this immortality was the serpent biting its tail forming an everlasting circle of life, the circle of the sun. The Sun god and the Serpent are often the same god. The pagans worshiped the sun and celebrated it on the venerable day of the sun, Sunday.
During the dark ages, the Papacy adopted this symbol as well as the day into their religion, and began to enforce its observance through civil laws.
This week day and the theory of the never ending ghost, remain the two marks of its authority, the umbrella under which almost all global religions fall prostrate.
The other less popular view, is that in the garden of Eden, the tree of life gave immortality, not the tree of "the knowledge of good and evil".
This elixir of life is only available under the condition of loyalty to God through faith, and is not inherent, so comes the necessary future resurrection to life, as opposed to ghosting it.
I would be interested in opening a discussion on apocalyptic events, end time events of the world.
It is a subject that I kept coming across while researching the topic of heaven.
Today, there are several views floating around in Christendom, and I'd like to be able to compare them with tribal folk lore, and ancient ideas.
This topic is not my speciality, so it would be an adventure.
It is a subject that I kept coming across while researching the topic of heaven.
Today, there are several views floating around in Christendom, and I'd like to be able to compare them with tribal folk lore, and ancient ideas.
This topic is not my speciality, so it would be an adventure.
Some people have asked what I have found that may not be verified across the board of religions, myths and legends.
And I am reluctant to do so, because the information comes from sources that are not considered evidence by science and the general religious community.
However, many people like yourself like to think for themselves and are not phased by the dictates of fashionable thinking.
So I will tell as much as I can about heaven, and reveal the sources at the end of posting, to avoid an onslaught of opposition.
If you are reading this post, feel free to open up any topic or question about heaven, to get this started.
Science isn't just "fashionable". It's the only way to be reasonably sure of something in an objective way.
If there is a Heaven I will be there.
Depends which heaven, doesn't it? You haven't made enough virgin sacrifices to Xochiquetzal to qualify!
kx000
Valued Senior Member
Loves.