Has God Updated the Bible?

[The Devil Inside]

That's great, what does deut 13 have to do with anything? Is that a formal challenge?! So my Fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob??

Sorry I should have been more specific. We were talking about Rev ch. 11 pretty much.

Worshiping Other Gods
Deuteronomy13: 1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.


this applies to john, who wrote the book of revelation. it also applies to paul, who was the vehicle of christianity.
it also applies to anyone that spreads those teachings.

 

[Nisus]

Frankly, I believe Jesus is the LORD, yahweh, of the OT. Jehovah.

 

[Nisus]

But Zion said, The LORD hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me.

Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.

Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.

Isa 49.

But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.

And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
Zech. 13: 6

 

[The Devil Inside]

then you also fall under the category of folks that this passage describes, do you not?
nothing in the Torah says that G-d will take flesh in the form of the messiah. the closest it comes to that is saying that the messiah will "walk with god".

 

[The Devil Inside]

crucified men were nailed through the wrists, nisus.

 

[Nisus]

then you also fall under the category of folks that this passage describes, do you not?

No I don't think so, but don't beat around the bush. Just come out and say you want to stone me or... whatever you're hinting at.

nothing in the Torah says that G-d will take flesh in the form of the messiah. the closest it comes to that is saying that the messiah will "walk with god".

Well this isn't in the Torah but;

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
# Isa. 9: 6

Isa prophesied of the coming of the Messiah in the flesh.

 

[Nisus]

crucified men were nailed through the wrists, nisus.

Well since you speak hebrew what is the word for Hand, and what is the word for Wrist?

And I wouldn't find it unreasonable to suggest he would recieve nails in both his hands and his wrists, I've seen many depictions of this in paintings.

 

[The Devil Inside]

really you are what?

 

[Nisus]

huh?

 

[Nisus]

BRB i need to go take care of some things I will be back within the hour.

 

[SnakeLord]

You are too unfamiliar with the scriptures to make any comments.

The short way of saying: "anyone that disagrees with me isn't allowed to respond". It often comes down to that when someone has no actual argument.

That response had nothing to do with what I was talking about at all. I said why are you scrutinizing Bible Commentary.

And I told you why. While I seemingly don't understand scripture, you seemingly don't understand English.

I'll do the long version for you..

If someone came up to me and said; "Lamborghinis are better than Ferarris", I would find myself in a position of not being able to agree or disagree simply because I don't know about these cars. In order to do either, knowing about those cars would be beneficial. After years of having idiots knock on my door, stop me in the street, damn me and my kind to eternal burning torment, force their nonsense down the throat of the young and so on, I found it in my best interest to read the bible, to analyse and learn about religion in general, to read other ancient and religious texts etc.

While, as I said, I do not argue against the bible and other ancient texts as being really quite interesting, only a seriously drivveling nutcase would actually believe it's all true or that it's talking about satellite TV - especially with such complete and utter lack of evidence.

Why are you debating with me about interpretation of the word?

Well, I came to a science forum and found religious people preaching, (like you're doing). You proceeded to make a pointless, inaccurate statement, and I felt like pointing that out. But why have you turned the focus of this discussion on what I do in my daily life? Perhaps you should be more concerned about the actual topic at hand. I guess eventually you're going to start having a go at my internet nickname. It's quite common with you folk.

Bitch and moan 2 someone else.

Now you're being childish. You asked me a question concerning me, so I answered it. If you didn't want the answer, don't ask the fucking question.

Why were you in court in the first place?

It was an example, stop being silly.

Like i said people sell you everything, not just religion. So obviously you have other issues.

What do people sell me?

I can see I got you really fired up but I'd like to get back to the reasons why you are still whining about Bible commentary.

Hardly, and I have explained why. How about we just get back to the actual topic of discussion?

You don't have to believe in Eternal Life, or Jesus Christ if you don't want to

Really?? *end sarcasm*

Let it be said however, that it's not about what one must or must not do, but simply what has evidence to support it and what doesn't.

The hope that it is real, is a fundamental part of Faith

Yeah, I have hope and faith that I'm going to win the lottery on Friday. It's worthless Nisus, utterly worthless.

I showed how many people, believe and understand that the Bible talks about technology and why

It really doesn't matter how many people 'believe', if there is no credible evidence to back up the claim. On the one hand revelations is supposed to be talking about sattelite TV, while on the other it clearly shows the authors belief that the world was flat, (I noticed you completely ignored my comments on that on my last post.. why?). You also ignored my comments concerning the ability to see the whole world from the top of a mountain - again which implies a belief in a flat planet. How could someone claim this guy explained future technology when he couldn't even understand the very basics concerning the planet he lived on? That very same 'book' then goes on to explain that a star crash lands on a third of the rivers - again showing that the author understood very little.

Further to which, the text you supplied does not support a claim that it's talking about TV, but a bunch of people that dwell in a city and can see corpses lying on the street.

I showed you with prefect plainess how it's possible, but you simply refuse to believe it

Well, I suppose you could say anything is possible. Yes, it's possible there's an invisible flying donut currently working it's way across Texas, but without being able to support the claim, why would I believe it?

And you have contempt for the idea that it could possibly be true, because then you might find yourself possibly believing in Jesus Christ, and you don't want to become what you hate the most.

What a load of old codswallop. I know you'd probably like that explanation to work, but it doesn't - and if you knew anything about me, and atheists in general, you'd realise the worthlessness of such a statement. All I am after is some evidence. It's the same when a muslim tells me about allah or and ancient Sumerian tells me about gilgamesh, (admittedly that doesn't happen frequently), or when some guy tells me about UFO's and aliens, or bigfoot, the loch ness monster or lenny the leprechaun.

I employ the same methods whenever somebody starts making grandiose claims. Am I asking for too much? I don't think so.

If you didn't care what I thought then you wouldn't come back here to hear what I have to say.

Why ever not? Can two people not have a discussion while not really that bothered about how the other person conducts his life? I guess we just differ in opinion.

Meanwhile you can go and debate all those websites, since they think the same as I do.

Why do you keep trying to use this as some form of debate? It's pointless. It's like me telling you to debate with all those websites that think religious people are wrong, or idiots. I'm talking to you.. yeah?

Or you only debate right here because you do care what I think.

If it helps serve your ego. Needless to say, you were the person here making the claim, so it is you I am debating with.

Because I just might say something that will tarnish your 2.3k post count. HAHA C'mon Goliath, so strong and so wise.

What has my post count got to do with anything? It's actually quite a low postcount considering, but it is of no relevance to anything.

There is plenty of evidence

Such as?

Breaking down an argument though is usually a sign of your cockiness and not being able to really get a point across, cause you're too busy whining, or fluffing up everything you say.

Then why are you doing it? The explanation I provided earlier shows why I do it, and your explanation must show why you do it. Oh well at least you're honest.

No, and I hope you weren't supposing that to be a stumper. Or of any consequence to your side of this whole conversation.

Well not exactly, no. It just shows that stating 'other people also believe it', isn't of any actual worth in the debate. Seemingly you don't understand that because you keep doing it.

So I, by nature, try my utmost to utterly confound you. And it works very well

Pump that ego!

Because see alot of people come to these boards with very simple faith, and you throw out all you flashy insults like "idiocy" to tread them down and rack up your posts

This is a science board. Very few people here have 'faith'. What I suppose is worth asking, is what religious fundies like you are doing on a science forum. Would it not be more appropriate to converse on a christian forum? That way you can all agree with each other and save having anyone disagree with you. Oh wait, even you guys can't agree with each other.

You're close, now try replacing London with Jerusalem.

According to the bibles here, the place is Rome, not Jerusalem. You're now in disagreement with millions.. *end sarcasm*.

And understanding that the scriptures do tell us that these two prophets "TORMENTED" them that "DWELL ON THE EARTH"

I do not deny that, but why do you need TV to be tormented?

Hence why they hate and despise them and leave their bodies

Eh? Surely they leave their bodies because they're thousands of miles away watching it on TV and as such are incapable of doing anything with the bodies? Oh wait.. are you stating that those people of kindreds and tongues and nations are actually in the city with the bodies? Of course you are.

to be seen by all nations, kindreds, toungues and people

Not "seen by all people.. " but "seen by people of all". There is a vast difference between those two statements.

And polish up your craftiness because you're not the most subtle of all the beasts of the field Snake

Oooh.. using my internet nickname to make a biblical statement. How cute.

Btw, I notice you completely ignored my statements concerning the planet being flat. I wonder why.

 

[Silas]

Well this isn't in the Torah but;

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
# Isa. 9: 6

Isa prophesied of the coming of the Messiah in the flesh.

Not if you actually read chapters 7-9 of Isaiah. He's talking to and about King Ahaz of Judah, then beseiged by Israel and Assyria. In Isaiah 7.14 (the infamous "virgin birth" and Immanuel prophecy) he is basically telling Ahaz that a child is about to be born, and by the time the child has grown enough to be able to tell right from wrong, or say "Mamma" and "Pappa", the threats from Israel and Assyria will have receded. It would, in that moment, have been of no use whatsoever to Ahaz to be told that a child would being born of a virgin mother some seven hundred and forty years later. (Imagine today being told that we shouldn't worry about Osama Bin Laden, Iran or North Korea, because someone will come along to solve the problem in 2746).

BTW, Nisus, this is a forum, not a chat room. If you have to do other stuff, you just go and do it and come back and reply when you can, there's no need to account for your movements to the rest of us!

 

[Silas]

Worshiping Other Gods
Deuteronomy13: 1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.


this applies to john, who wrote the book of revelation. it also applies to paul, who was the vehicle of christianity.
it also applies to anyone that spreads those teachings.

Tut, tut, Devil. First of all, simply decrying an entire, global, religious belief simply because it is heretical by your standards is antithetical to the kind of "live-and-let-live" attitude that I believe should be practiced by all on all sides of the debate. Secondly, the New Testament writings are now over four times as old as the Torah was at the time of Jesus, John and Paul. It has certainly attained its own level of authority and venerability, no less than the Torah, in Christian eyes. Thirdly, of course, neither Jesus himself, nor John, nor Paul ever talked about worshipping any gods other than YHWH. As far as you're concerned, regarding Jesus as the Son of God is heresy, but then that's why Christianity is a whole other religion, separated and apart from Judaism.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
# Isa. 9: 6

Isa prophesied of the coming of the Messiah in the flesh.

*************
M*W: This is one of the xian lies.

 

[The Devil Inside]

silas:
i think you missed the spirit of my post.
the subject was raised BECAUSE of that live and let live attitude. nisus basically challenged me to supply some substance to the conversation. they were speaking about revelation 11, i believe. it is a dream sequence. nisus was being particularly militant toward snakelord, so i attempted to turn the tables a bit, and let nisus see his mistake in tact, as it is just as possible for someone to become militant regarding what he said as well.
is it a bit less angry seeming now?
:m:

 

[Nisus]

The short way of saying: "anyone that disagrees with me isn't allowed to respond". It often comes down to that when someone has no actual argument.

Haha yea that sounds great coming from an athiest whose new endeavor is Bible commentary. I mean that's what you sought out to do from the beginning right? Is comment on scriptures that you have no understanding of whatsoever. To contend over interpretations of words you don't even believe to be true in the first place. Your house is divided against itself, over and over again.

I'm completely open to anyone with some truth, but I've already come to the base of who/what you are after all this discussion.

And I told you why. While I seemingly don't understand scripture, you seemingly don't understand English.

No I understand English, and I understand it better than you actually. I've never strangled someone so many times with words as I have you. You should know that after having come thus far in conversation with me; that I am more than capable of withstanding even the best of your Athiest fundy responses.

You bitch about people judging you and forcing their ideas upon you. No one is telling you to come back here and read genius.

After years of having idiots knock on my door, stop me in the street

Well, you're coming back here to me. I'm not knocking your door or stopping you in the streets.

They're all idiots haha, and I suppose you have some superior way of living out your life? Is there some form of thought that you have making you impervious to death? No, you die at the end of the day just like all these "idiots" that believe in religion.

I've not made any generalizations about your kind so far but you've been chuck full of why everyone with any religious faith is inferior to you as a human being.

Your so full of shit man. Grow up and become a better example for your kid.

While, as I said, I do not argue against the bible and other ancient texts as being really quite interesting, only a seriously drivveling nutcase would actually believe it's all true or that it's talking about satellite TV - especially with such complete and utter lack of evidence.

Well at this point, I will take your judgement of being a seriously drivveling nutcase, because I believe it's all true. I don't know specifically what form of technology will be used to broadcast to the world that these 2 Prophets have been slain, wether it be TV, sattelite TV, internet etc, I think it will be every form of communicating Idea, upon the wings of technology.

Yes I have the ability to think and believe this. But really seriously, you old bag of degraded and fucking worthless human specimen (yes I will own you in insulting too), you have no grounds for calling anyone a nutcase or supposing, because you don't believe the same as another that you're superior in intelligence.

Oh now there is a burden of proof for evidence? Well sorry, you can go google "Bible Evidence" I'm not trying to start another thread here. I'm more interested in the philosophical and moral value of the scriptures.

Well, I came to a science forum and found religious people preaching,

Oh that's a wonder, in a religion forum. Like religious people can't believe in science. Hah.

(like you're doing).

You too. The moment you disagree with me and start off your ramblings about how stupid it is to believe in God and the Bible, that's when you start preaching. Don't try to pull in all these accusations thinking that they're going to pull any weight in your whole scheme to slander me. Which is what you've tried to do from the beginning.

At this point you've communicated to me that I am Stupid, Crazy, and "Fundamental" in my beliefs. Go on preacher. But take no wonder why at the end of the day I will be more inclined to believe the words of Jesus.

You proceeded to make a pointless, inaccurate statement, and I felt like pointing that out. But why have you turned the focus of this discussion on what I do in my daily life? Perhaps you should be more concerned about the actual topic at hand. I guess eventually you're going to start having a go at my internet nickname. It's quite common with you folk.

Really at this point, I've lost the whole conversation. I just want to track down your croquet club swinging english ass and give you a yankee beat down. Jk, haha that was pretty funny. Anyways. uhmm.. Yea if you want me to insult your name I can do that too. We're breaking the thresholde here and going onto page 5 or 6?

Now you're being childish.

Yea you too. You just have an adult way of doing it, chocolate covering your insults with a taste of intellect. I still have "idocy" ringing in my ears, I'll add an english accent to stimulate the effect of your insults.

You asked me a question concerning me, so I answered it. If you didn't want the answer, don't ask the fucking question.

Well I told you the answer, everything is sold to you, even your identity in this world. And I think that complaining about religion is just a cop-out because if you're gonna complain about religion bombarding you; you should also complain about telemarketers and pop-up ads.

What do people sell me?

Hmm... Fashion, Fastfood, Philosophy, Fornication. Etc.

Hardly, and I have explained why. How about we just get back to the actual topic of discussion?

Topic? You wanna talk about has the Bible being updated? I don't see the need to start anything else till we've finished what's on our plate.

It really doesn't matter how many people 'believe', if there is no credible evidence to back up the claim.

Yea that's why there is a very obvious difference between believing and knowing. To believe is to not see, that doesn't have any correlation with a need for evidence. Wanting evidence is fine, all you have to do is forsake your opportunity to believe.

It's actually kind of complex and I'm not sure what you're talking about specifically. But there is plenty of "evidence" that can sustain belief.

For example maybe there is not 100% evidence of Jesus Christ, but there is 100% evidence of bethlehem of Judea.

On the one hand revelations is supposed to be talking about sattelite TV

I was talking about the implication of technology in the scriptures. But you need the author of a book written in 100 AD, to give you more modern words like TIVO, and Unlimited Channels, in order to draw out any form of potential understanding.

You also ignored my comments concerning the ability to see the whole world from the top of a mountain

Yea because it was a stupid example. And a very sorry response to what I said initially. Maybe you should quote it and contrast it with your mountaintop perception of the planet.

- again which implies a belief in a flat planet.

You ever seen a map? It has four corners. Now, back in the day that is what they used to percieve the world, maps. And God had a tendancy to speak to them in terms so that they would learn, according to their understanding.

East is still east on a globe or a map. We have maps of the entire world now, layed out as a scroll. With four corners, though we know our world is round, but we still make maps that are flat....

How could someone claim this guy explained future technology when he couldn't even understand the very basics concerning the planet he lived on?

It's not that he couldn't understand the basics, anyone can understand the basics, given the proper education and having the right information. The world being round isn't a new discovery to the universe. It's a discovery to mankind.

If you're trying to judge him based on what he doesn't know, I think you should also be judged based on what you don't know. And 10 years from now your understanding of the world and universe could possibly evolve dramatically based on discovery of new information.

Suffice it to say, I'm positive John's understanding of the cosmos had nothing to do with the revelation he recieved. And if you understand the book it was fashioned in the form of an evangelical writing, being sent to 7 churches, not a science forum.

That very same 'book' then goes on to explain that a star crash lands on a third of the rivers - again showing that the author understood very little.

You know that Star is also used symbolically as an Angel, or a Child of God in other instances of scripture?

Wether a third of the rivers are smitten by a star, or an Angel, or some other FORCE OF GOD-- it's not what is acting upon it that is imperative, it's the judgement of God upon the creation.

Further to which, the text you supplied does not support a claim that it's talking about TV, but a bunch of people that dwell in a city and can see corpses lying on the street.

I didn't say this text says TV. Anyways I've already explained this to you in this post. But I think it's funny how you change People of the Earth and Nations, kindreds and tongues into a "but a bunch of people that dwell in a city"

Show me your incompetence to understand the word, and your writhing to slither out of the grip of your error.

What a load of old codswallop. I know you'd probably like that explanation to work, but it doesn't - and if you knew anything about me, and atheists in general, you'd realise the worthlessness of such a statement. All I am after is some evidence. It's the same when a muslim tells me about allah or and ancient Sumerian tells me about gilgamesh, (admittedly that doesn't happen frequently), or when some guy tells me about UFO's and aliens, or bigfoot, the loch ness monster or lenny the leprechaun.

I employ the same methods whenever somebody starts making grandiose claims. Am I asking for too much? I don't think so.

Haha no but I like how you're trying to transition from interpretation of philisophical and religious text to Scientist. Hence the reason why I told you long ago you should have just argued about the source and not what was said.

Now you ask for evidence. I thought you were so terribly smart that you would have already known there is no "evidence" that will satisfy your scientific methods. So when you're out of any substantial debating material you cop-out and say "All I want is evidence".

hahahhahaahahahahah. What for? How are you going to ask for evidence when we initiated discussion upon INTERPRETATION of biblical text. Not a dilemna for evidence.

The rest of your post wasn't worth adressing, you were just kicking against the pricks and flailing your arms in some attempt to shift interpretation of Revelations Chapter 11, into your favor.

You're already aquainted with my understanding of it.

 

[Nisus]

Ok now for the others... come one come all. Take a number I will be with you shortly.

 

[Nisus]

*************
M*W: This is one of the xian lies.

No it's not.

 

[Nisus]

Not if you actually read chapters 7-9 of Isaiah. He's talking to and about King Ahaz of Judah, then beseiged by Israel and Assyria. In Isaiah 7.14 (the infamous "virgin birth" and Immanuel prophecy) he is basically telling Ahaz that a child is about to be born, and by the time the child has grown enough to be able to tell right from wrong, or say "Mamma" and "Pappa", the threats from Israel and Assyria will have receded. It would, in that moment, have been of no use whatsoever to Ahaz to be told that a child would being born of a virgin mother some seven hundred and forty years later. (Imagine today being told that we shouldn't worry about Osama Bin Laden, Iran or North Korea, because someone will come along to solve the problem in 2746).

BTW, Nisus, this is a forum, not a chat room. If you have to do other stuff, you just go and do it and come back and reply when you can, there's no need to account for your movements to the rest of us!

you don't understand Isaiah at all..

 

[Nisus]

BTW, Nisus, this is a forum, not a chat room. If you have to do other stuff, you just go and do it and come back and reply when you can, there's no need to account for your movements to the rest of us!

Thanks for pointing out the obvious. I was actually in convo with Devil inside, and if you follow his posts he made a comment about me leaving the conversation because I didn't reply within 15 minutes to what he said.

So to hinder him from supposing I was entirely gone from the discussion, I told him I was going to do some things, and I would be back shortly to address his comments.