Genetics Vs Mormonism & Creationism

[Marlin]

even if Marlin won't admitt it, the source document for mormonism, the "Book of Mormon" states that at least one of the so-called founders was from the Israelish tribe of Joseph

What are you talking about? I said we didn't know that Lehi was Jewish, in response to your assertion that he was. I never denied that he was an Israelite.

 

[Marlin]

not just, there are about 100 diff reasons; including DNA; tech for one, languages for another, list of domesticated & wild animals sopposedly here or brought here by them, flora, metalurgy, etc

The reason I read the Book of Mormon is to learn more about Christ and His gospel.

ugh, for a so-called abrigment, its to quote Mark Twain, "chloryform in print"

And the Bible may be described that way also. Does that stop you from believing in it?

science is only a small part, God proclaims the BoM false, by condemning its so-called 'prophet' J. Smith, for his many false prophecies

I've already touched on the nature of prophets and prophecy (see my link above by the same name). Indeed, I've touched on ALL of these issues, over and over again, and yet you in your obstinate unbelief refuse to acknowledge that you're wrong in the least bit.

 

[perfectblue]

Yes, without the need for religion, of course.
It is theist thought that controls the decision making process, which has shaped and formed our societies over the centuries that resulted in those idiots, zealots, killers, overlords and the close-minded. This is the same thought process that commands allegiance to invisible beings over fellow men, precludes reality for fantasy and sets living standards towards a non-existent afterlife.

i understand that there are people who are "christians" who exhibit very unchristian-like behaviour. but, you are generalizing an entire demographic by a small section of the group. i also understand that there is a large amount of corruption in the organized religions. organized religion is a lot like organized crime.

however, some of us out here just believe in something bigger, and don't listen to the dogma. i don't subscribe to the lies of a church, and i don't put stock in the words of men even if god supposedly guided their pens. and that is what i am defending - the right to believe whatever anyone wants to believe so long as it doesn't step on anyone elses' toes.

i've just realized that this whole time i've been attacking that same belief. so, i will let this go, and accept my defeat. i got so wrapped up in this whole debate that i never stopped to think about the fact that you have to right to say whatever it is you want to say. i can't change how you feel, and you can't change how i feel. so let's call it a draw, (Q).

 

[Nisus]

God proclaims the BoM false, by condemning its so-called 'prophet' J. Smith, for his many false prophecies

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. (Matt. 7: 18)

 

[(Q)]

however, some of us out here just believe in something bigger... what i am defending - the right to believe whatever anyone wants to believe so long as it doesn't step on anyone elses' toes.

Even if that which you WANT to believe in has no basis in reality, and WILL undoubtedly lead you to make decisions based on your faith?

That may very be your right to do so, but wouldn't it make more sense to make decisions on that which IS based in reality?

Wouldn't you at the very least agree that if there were a god, a single god, the he would reveal his message to us equally and unequivocally, so that we all agree?

Doesn't the un-Christian-like behaviour, the corruption and the dogma even remotely make you think it might all be man-made nonsense?

 

[WildBlueYonder]

For an anti-Mormon, you need to recognize the difference between "Jewish" and "Israelite." Jewish means "of the tribe of Judah," which was only one of the twelve tribes. "Israelite" includes people from all twelve tribes. Lehi was Israelite, but that doesn't mean he was Jewish.

first, my little buckeroo, all israelites shared one grandfather: Abraham, one father; Jacob (called Israel), they shared genes, something that would come out in DNA studies my dear fellow, they are not the "red-headed" son, so they all share Y chromosomes, & 4 mtDNA from their moms

you're pretending that we're talking about this as if the diff between them, was like mexicans & scots. wrong again buckeroo

I hate to burst your bubble, but in modern times, it has been found that what was once called the "lost tribes of Israel" were never really lost, they set up communities in Babylonia, Assyria, Iran, Yemen, Arabia (remnants of the old Assyrian & Babylonian empires), these people helped build up the modern state of Israel when they started to get discriminated in their home countries, they fled to the new Jewish state, read up on 'aliya'

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/history/modern history/centenary of zionism/aliya and absorption

By 1951, the number of immigrants more than doubled the Jewish population of the country in 1948. The immigrants included, inter alia, survivors of the Holocaust from displaced persons' camps in Germany, Austria and Italy; a majority of the Jewish communities of Bulgaria and Poland and one third of the Jews of Romania; and nearly all of the Jewish communities of Libya, Yemen and Iraq.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/iraqijews.html

One of the longest surviving Jewish communities still lives in Iraq. In 722 B.C.E., the northern tribes of Israel were defeated by Assyria and some Jews were taken to what is now known as Iraq. A larger community was established in 586 B.C.E., when the Babylonians conquered the southern tribes of Israel and enslaved the Jews. These Jews distinguished themselves from Sephardim, referring to themselves as Baylim (Babylonions). In later centuries, the region became more hospitable to Jews and it became the home to some of the world's most prominent scholars who produced the Babylonian Talmud between 500 and 700 C.E.

plus to further inform you, I'm pasting this from a previous post:
I used the following keywords to google: dna tables jews Palestinians Arabs
found these below:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=379128#RF54

Figures and Tables

Table 1
Y Chromosome Diversity within 18 Jewish and Non-Jewish Populations

Table 2
mtDNA Diversity within 18 Jewish and Non-Jewish Populations[Note]

Table 3
Frequently Encountered mtDNA Haplotypes

Table 4
Mean FST Values in mtDNA and Y Chromosome Data[Note]

Table 5
Comparison of X Chromosome LD among Georgian Jews and non-Jewish British Men

http://bioanthropology.huji.ac.il/pdf/Nebel _2005.pdf
Adobe Doc, I can’t copy, but tables start on pg 2

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2003-10/1066334341

About 18% of genes are shared between Arab Men from Lebanon, Syria, Iraq,
Palestine, and Jordan with Polish Jewish men, particularly Jews from
Bialystock, Poland. They also share similar markers in the immune system
dating to a possible common origin about 7,800 years ago in the Middle East.
Note that Iraqi Jewish men and Polish Jewish men also match closely in Y
chromosomes and also with the CMH. However, Iraqi Jewish women with 17% U3
mtDNA match with a high U3 in the Iraqi Christian Assyrian and Chaldean
population and most people in the Middle East in general. Ashkenazi mtDNA is
only 2.9% U3 and 9% H CRS, but Moroccan Sephardic mtDNA is 27% H CRS.

http://www.assyrianfoundation.org/genetics.htm

The results of these scientific studies lead to the startling realization that Turks, Iranians, Kurds, Iraqis, Jordanians, Lebanese are more closely related genetically to Assyrians than they are to other members of their own respective language families in Asia. These seven groups (and Jews) are genetically close. The great language, cultural and religious differences are not reflected in the most fundamental aspect of their biology - their genes, which are the most accurate indicators of their shared origins and ancestry.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=14674

Subjects. We analyzed 159 males from eight populations. These individuals were Ashkenazi Jews from Poland (20), Druze (20), Ethiopian Jews (19), Iraqi Jews (20), Libyan Jews (20), Moroccan Jews (20), Palestinian Arabs (20), and Yemenite Jews (20). DNA samples were obtained from The National Laboratory for the Genetics of Israeli Populations (www.tau.ac.il/medicine/NLGIP/nlgip.htm). Jewish DNA samples were contributed by second-generation immigrants to Israel from the various source populations.

 

[Marlin]

Randy Baby, you are just too much! Don't you know that your "proof texts" are biased and cannot be taken seriously? It's true, mi amigo. Nothing you have said or quoted identifies the specific DNA makeup of Lehi, Nephi, Laman, Ishmael, or even Mulek, the last of which was Jewish.

The DNA testing, as I quoted in one of my many sources, yields false positives and false negatives, plus, (and write this down so you don't forget it, viejo) there were people with whom the Lehites intermarried with that diluted their gene pool until it was beyond easily identifiable recognition. Unless you can show directly that ALL Native Americans do not have Israelite DNA, your defense has holes all through it and is scientifically unprovable.

Now, go home and read the Book of Mormon, viejo, and pray about it. Maybe God will forgive your hypocrisy and take the scales of darkness off of your blinded eyes.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Randy Baby, you are just too much!

Marline, don't call me 'baby', you're not my type, even if you are a lady

Don't you know that your "proof texts" are biased and cannot be taken seriously? It's true, mi amigo. Nothing you have said or quoted identifies the specific DNA makeup of Lehi, Nephi, Laman, Ishmael, or even Mulek, the last of which was Jewish.

actually, that's easy, the answer is, they have the same DNA as "Sherlock Holmes", since they, like him are fictional characters, their DNA would be ‘ink & paper’

The DNA testing, as I quoted in one of my many sources, yields false positives and false negatives, plus, (and write this down so you don't forget it, viejo) there were people with whom the Lehites intermarried with that diluted their gene pool until it was beyond easily identifiable recognition. Unless you can show directly that ALL Native Americans do not have Israelite DNA, your defense has holes all through it and is scientifically unprovable.

me thinkest thou protesteth too much, thou, mine dear friend, are the one with holes, so much so, that you need to circle the wagons, call for more help from the Danites, bishops, cowboys, marines, FARMS, whoever

tell us, my dear fellow, why is most of the evidence the other way around, namely, if you aren't paying attention; that Native Peoples are proving to be overwhelmingly of east Asian DNA? why is that? Yet you say that they have not tested all the Native Peoples DNA, as if that proves your point, as if ALL have to be tested, & not just a reprehensive number, as in most stats, like polls, etc…

also, why does the BoM never mention these ‘diluters’, could it be because there are really more ‘deluders” in this mix?

Also, are you grasping at straws?

Now, go home and read the Book of Mormon, viejo, and pray about it. Maybe God will forgive your hypocrisy and take the scales of darkness off of your blinded eyes.

hehehe, you're funny, too funny, definitely weakening under pressure, me buckaroo, is that the best you can do?

Here’s another shot at your bow, if all these guys got to the Western Hemisphere leaving from the Arabian peninsula via a covered ship, how did they get through the Australian continent/Indonesian archipelago/Malay peninsula without crashing into any of the 1000 islands, before going on to the Pacific Ocean?
See below for “real world” ocean currents:
http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/8q_1.html

 

[Marlin]

Randi, honey, get a life! If all you can do is break down other people's religions, you have a serious attitude problem.

Again, all of your sources are biased and your reasoning is faulty. I'm not going to repeat what I've said in the past, as you obviously have not even shown any tendency to investigate my claims. I'm talking to a brick wall.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Randi, honey,

hey, cut it out, before long, people will start talking

get a life! If all you can do is break down other people's religions, you have a serious attitude problem.

nah, just make-believe ones, like LDS

Again, all of your sources are biased and your reasoning is faulty.

biased, you mean because they don't support LDS beliefs? shucks, guy, they're just the facts, I'm letting the cards fall where they may

I'm not going to repeat what I've said in the past, as you obviously have not even shown any tendency to investigate my claims.

shucks, I was thinking the same about you? wow, we actually agreed on something, watch out guys!!! either hell is freezing over or the sky is falling?

I'm talking to a brick wall.

hmmm, maybe you should stop yelling into the mirrror?

 

[perfectblue]

Even if that which you WANT to believe in has no basis in reality, and WILL undoubtedly lead you to make decisions based on your faith?

yes. god is an imaginary friend for grown-ups, and i choose to keep him. and it leads me to make some decisions, however i find that it helps me make decisions leading away from self-destructive tendancies, and that is helping me as a person.

That may very be your right to do so, but wouldn't it make more sense to make decisions on that which IS based in reality?

it might make more sense, yes. however, i find that living by a structure far suits me then leaving me to my own devices. i understand that i am not grown-up enough to take care of myself.

Wouldn't you at the very least agree that if there were a god, a single god, the he would reveal his message to us equally and unequivocally, so that we all agree?

no. i feel that the point of life is to learn, and learn on one's own. i do not think that one possibly learn and grow and shape themselves as an individual when everything is spoonfed to them.

Doesn't the un-Christian-like behaviour, the corruption and the dogma even remotely make you think it might all be man-made nonsense?

at times, yes. but as i said, i discard all that and look at the fact that all things seem to be invisibly connected. by what? i don't know. i take that unknown, and call it "god".

 

[Nisus]

DNA

Why are we still talking about DNA?

Gonna put this in caps lock so maybe the point gets through. Then i'm going to bold it as well.

THERE ARE NO DNA STRANDS FROM NEPHITES THAT YOU CAN COMPARE TO ANY 5TH CENTURY B.C. JEWS.

THERE ARE NO DNA STRANDS AT ALL THAT YOU CAN ANALYZE THAT HAVE ANY APPLICATION TO WHO WROTE THE BOM.

THEY'RE ALL DEAD, SWALLOWED UP IN THE EARTH, TURNED BACK INTO DUST, AND ALL THEIR ANCESTORS INTERBRED

WITH

TONS

OF

DIFFERENT

CLASSES

OF

INHABITANTS

MULEKITES

LAMANITES

NEPHITES

ZORAMITES

ISHMAELITES

THEREFORE THERE ISN'T THE LEAST POSSIBLE WAY TO COMPARE DNA ---

Unless you want to compare DNA from people that existed 1,000 YEARS

1,000 + years after, who knows what happened in that time line. With whom they bred. Who sailed where. If anyone else arrived to the Americas and bred with them.

The BOM says the nephites were destroyed 420 AD, that's

1,584 YEARS have passed since they were destroyed. How much can a Gene pool change in that amount of time? Why wouldn't it change?

And the Jews... they've been to assyria, babylon and back. Then scattered throughout all of europe, then after breeding everywhere they went; their ancestors (some? who knows) come back to Jerusalem and call themselves Jews/Israelites. That Gene pool has more extensive evidence of having been manipulated and changed-------OBVIOUSLY-----

Can we stop talking about DNA now? please?

 

[Marlin]

From my experience with WBY, if he says the sky is pink and you prove to him that the sky is blue, next week he will come back and say it's pink again. He doesn't learn. He doesn't reason. He doesn't think for himself, but just reads anti-Mormon websites and parrots back what they say. Don't expect that to change anytime soon.

 

[(Q)]

i find that it helps me make decisions leading away from self-destructive tendancies, and that is helping me as a person.

Ah, but that is not the way to go about it, you're merely replacing one problem with another. You must deal with the self-destructive tendencies by facing the issues causing those tendencies.

i understand that i am not grown-up enough to take care of myself.

Religion will further stifle that growth, inhibiting your abilities to think.

. i do not think that one possibly learn and grow and shape themselves as an individual when everything is spoonfed to them.

What does that have to do with a single message from a god to all people?

i discard all that and look at the fact that all things seem to be invisibly connected. by what? i don't know. i take that unknown, and call it "god".

How do you know things are invisibly connected? What would make you leap to that conclusion?

 

[WildBlueYonder]

From my experience with WBY, if he says the sky is pink and you prove to him that the sky is blue, next week he will come back and say it's pink again.

but it is pink, at least at sunset, with red, orange, grey, white & blue too

He doesn't learn.

me? I've managed to learn plenty, but you? I'm worried about you, take a deep breath, pray for guidance, hope for the best, keep smiling, let go of that bitterness, pray for others, even me, thanks

He doesn't reason.

au contraire, I do a reasonably good job, just happen to not agree with your brainwashing program, too bad for you

He doesn't think for himself,

I was thinking the same about you

but just reads anti-Mormon websites and parrots back what they say.

actually, I read a vast cross-section of stuff, mostly sci-fi, which is the reason I can safely say, that the BoM is a work of fiction, you've been brainwashed, you read only pro-mormon propaganda & parrot it. my guess is, that your world would fall apart if you ever had a small doubt about all that LDS stuff, you need to be careful, a fragile mind like yours must not read my comments too carefully, otherwise you would see how weak your BoM really is, tell us, Mr. Mormon Bishop, how did all those Middle Easterners get here again? oh yeah, a ship was blown & storm-tossed from Arabia to Mexico, must have been quite a trip, seeing that they would have had to pass through 16,000 islands of the Indonesian Archipelago. How was that done? easy, J. Smith didn't know any better, he just wrote away & invented a fantasy world, with make-believe Jew-like people (you & Nisus say, we have no DNA proof of what or who they were) & they peopled a world where they did not interact with their near-neighbors, almost as if they didn't exist, why? poor old J. Smith didn't know, so he wrote away, J. Smith said the BoM plates were written in "Reformed Egyptian", a language that never existed & when documents surfaced that J. Smith supposedly translated from Hieroglyphic Egyptian for the BoA, well, lo & behold it don't say what J. Smith says it said, seems its the Book of Breathing, poor old J. Smith, he didn't know that Champollion had translated that pesky Egyptian hieroglyphics that had evaded so much effort after almost 2 thousand years of silence

Don't expect that to change anytime soon.

ok, I'll try not to disappoint you
;-p

 

[Marlin]

but it is pink, at least at sunset, with red, orange, grey, white & blue too

Once again, you completely miss the point.

actually, I read a vast cross-section of stuff, mostly sci-fi, which is the reason I can safely say, that the BoM is a work of fiction, you've been brainwashed, you read only pro-mormon propaganda & parrot it.

That's funny. I read a great deal of stuff other than "pro-mormon propaganda," including anti-Mormon propaganda. In fact, I collect anti-Mormon books and read them just for fun, to laugh at the ridiculous arguments put forth by people who think they are being reasonable but fall short of all logic and reason. My most recent foray was reading "No Man Knows My History" by Fawn Brodie. A very entertaining read, I have to say. Brodie stands on her head and does spiritual cartwheels to explain away Joseph Smith's magical ability to make other people see visions.

my guess is, that your world would fall apart if you ever had a small doubt about all that LDS stuff, you need to be careful, a fragile mind like yours must not read my comments too carefully, otherwise you would see how weak your BoM really is,

Don't worry, your comments may make me angry, but they certainly aren't of the caliber to challenge my faith in an deep, significant way. You argue flora and fauna, metallurgy, and DNA. My church teaches Christ and Him crucified, love for all men, and love for God.

tell us, Mr. Mormon Bishop,

I am not a bishop, nor have I ever been a bishop.

how did all those Middle Easterners get here again? oh yeah, a ship was blown & storm-tossed from Arabia to Mexico, must have been quite a trip, seeing that they would have had to pass through 16,000 islands of the Indonesian Archipelago. How was that done? easy,

Have you ever heard of the power of God? Can't God guide a ship wherever He wants it to go? Or perhaps your God isn't omnipotent.

J. Smith didn't know any better, he just wrote away & invented a fantasy world, with make-believe Jew-like people (you & Nisus say, we have no DNA proof of what or who they were) & they peopled a world where they did not interact with their near-neighbors, almost as if they didn't exist, why? poor old J. Smith didn't know, so he wrote away, J. Smith said the BoM plates were written in "Reformed Egyptian", a language that never existed

How do you know that Reformed Egyptian never existed? How do you know anything about the Book of Mormon when you refuse to read and pray about it?

& when documents surfaced that J. Smith supposedly translated from Hieroglyphic Egyptian for the BoA, well, lo & behold it don't say what J. Smith says it said, seems its the Book of Breathing, poor old J. Smith, he didn't know that Champollion had translated that pesky Egyptian hieroglyphics that had evaded so much effort after almost 2 thousand years of silence

The Book of Breathing is a funerary document which made up a small part of the Book of Abraham. The main part of that scroll was lost in a fire and *no one* has ever translated it since Joseph Smith did.

 

[Nisus]

your brainwashing program

Wo unto them that call evil good, and good evil, that put darkness for light, and light for darkness, that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Wo unto the wise in their own eyes and prudent in their own sight!
Nephi 15:20-21


Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.
Moroni 7:14

you would see how weak your BoM really is

And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.
2 nephi 33:11

tell us, Mr. Mormon Bishop, how did all those Middle Easterners get here again?

And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?

How was that done?

Behold I say unto you, it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.

written in "Reformed Egyptian", a language that never existed

And I know that the record which I make is true; and I make it with mine own hand; and I make it according to my knowledge.

Yea, I make a record in the aanguage of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
You've helped in fulfilling this prophecy from the Book of Mormon...

And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible•! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.

But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?

Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

You will be judged by these words,

For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Book of Mormon is amazing. And wether you attribute all these words to have been written by Joseph smith, or Christ... at this point it doesn't matter...

What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interesting the Book of Mormon contains all this information. The book testifies against people like you.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Interesting the Book of Mormon contains all this information. The book testifies against people like you.

Interestingly, I think I saw a quote from the movie "Contact" about "delusional" people have self-defensive statements, such as this self-protecting quote that the BoM has.

tell us Nisus, why would all the evidence point to the BoM being falsehood? remember that when J. Smith wrote the BoM, the Egyptian language had just barely been translated in 1822; in that lonely outpost of scientific research called France

the BoM is a novel, a work of fiction, that when the LDS hierarchy finds that it can no longer sustain, it will change its stance, then people like you will have to swallow hard, & tow the new "official" line, just like happened with polygamy & blacks in the priesthood, or are you denying that happened too?

also, did you know that the early mormon leadership were 'sinners' according to the BoM? it specifically condemns the practice of polygamy, a rite that both J. Smith & B. Young thoroughly enjoyed. & you can’t get around that, unless you are going to 'burn', 'edit' or 'erase' the evidence for that too?
Quick guys, read Jacob 2:22-29 before it is 'sanitized'

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Once again, you completely miss the point.

no, I got it & one-upped you

How do you know that Reformed Egyptian never existed?

can you prove that it ever did? No, I thought so

The Book of Breathing is a funerary document which made up a small part of the Book of Abraham. The main part of that scroll was lost in a fire and *no one* has ever translated it since Joseph Smith did.

tisk, tisk, caught in a lie, can we get independent verification on that? anyone interested in either proving Marlin or myself, right or wrong, should google ""book of abraham" scroll found "new york" "

and find out for yourself

 

[Marlin]

Randolfo, here is what the Book of Mormon says about polygamy:

Jacob 2:29
For if I will, saith the Lord of hosts, raise up seed unto me [through polygamy], I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things [the things spoken above forbidding polygamy].

It is plain that God says here that polygamy is forbidden UNLESS God "commands his people otherwise." This is completely in harmony with LDS teachings.