Genetics Vs Mormonism & Creationism

[Marlin]

can you prove that it ever did? No, I thought so

Yes, actually I can, but only if you believe in personal revelation.

tisk, tisk, caught in a lie, can we get independent verification on that? anyone interested in either proving Marlin or myself, right or wrong, should google ""book of abraham" scroll found "new york" "

and find out for yourself

It's no lie. The scroll they found was only part of the entire Book of Abraham. You're the one who is mistaken. The original scroll was described as being rolled out for the length of several rooms, while the scroll you are talking about was much shorter.

 

[Nisus]

read Jacob 2:22-29 before it is 'sanitized'[/COLOR]

These scriptures address "many wives and concubines"... Which the LDS church condemns.

However many wives and concubines David/Solomon chose to have, that weren't administered to them under the covenant of Eternal Marriage, is seperate issue.

Solomon built a temple, there is some evidence in the scriptures he practiced plural marriage. BUT what is spoken of in Jacob, is how they stepped outside of their bounds. Outside of the covenants, and chose to commit abominations.

The scriptures are perfect... the doctrine as well. IF you search out for understanding. As for the preisthood, all the things that the prophets did were according to their knowledge and understanding. It doesn't matter if you condemn how they carried out these affairs, you aren't associated with the organization or it's endeavors, and they weren't your decisions to make-- and the work will continue onward. Growing stronger.

It would also be wise for you to consider the words, under an open heart.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

These scriptures address "many wives and concubines"... Which the LDS church condemns.

However many wives and concubines David/Solomon chose to have, that weren't administered to them under the covenant of Eternal Marriage, is seperate issue.

Solomon built a temple, there is some evidence in the scriptures he practiced plural marriage. BUT what is spoken of in Jacob, is how they stepped outside of their bounds. Outside of the covenants, and chose to commit abominations.

The scriptures are perfect... the doctrine as well. IF you search out for understanding. As for the preisthood, all the things that the prophets did were according to their knowledge and understanding. It doesn't matter if you condemn how they carried out these affairs, you aren't associated with the organization or it's endeavors, and they weren't your decisions to make-- and the work will continue onward. Growing stronger.

It would also be wise for you to consider the words, under an open heart.

*************
M*W: Wives and concubines held the very same status. Their children were reared together. Back then, wives were not jealous of concubines but received them well. You need to do some research on this subject.

 

[Marlin]

*************
M*W: Wives and concubines held the very same status. Their children were reared together. Back then, wives were not jealous of concubines but received them well. You need to do some research on this subject.

I just finished reading Genesis, and Leah and Rachel, both wives of Jacob, certainly had some bad feelings toward each other. Sarah, Abraham's wife, was jealous of Hagar as well and sent her with her child, Ishmael, into the desert.

I'd say you need to do some research yourself, no offense, M*W.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

I just finished reading Genesis, and Leah and Rachel, both wives of Jacob, certainly had some bad feelings toward each other. Sarah, Abraham's wife, was jealous of Hagar as well and sent her with her child, Ishmael, into the desert.

first of all, Abraham was not a king, which is probably what MW is referring too, second of all, you are right, there was 'palace intrigue', & murder to get your sons in as king, etc...

I'd say you need to do some research yourself, no offense, M*W.

& thirdly, you missed the point entirely, no amount of hemming & hawing can erase the fact that J. Smith went against BoM teaching, he was a polygamist, a sinner

http://www.letusreason.org/LDS 9.htm

The Prophet Joseph Smith actually took a very strong stand against polygamy when he originally wrote the Book of Mormon. In Jacob 2:23-24 we read: "But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son."Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord."

 

[WildBlueYonder]

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. (Matt. 7: 18)

you are right, poor J. Smith, not only a false prophet, but a sinner by BoM standards

 

[Marlin]

WildBlueYonder, what part of "If I will...raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things." don't you understand?

The Lord says, If I want to, I will command my people to practice polygamy. Otherwise, do not practice it.

That's what the Book of Mormon says. Get a clue. I've corrected you on this very point numerous times, and still you act like I haven't. Hopefully this will be the last time I have to correct you on this issue.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Why are we still talking about DNA?

Gonna put this in caps lock so maybe the point gets through. Then i'm going to bold it as well.

THERE ARE NO DNA STRANDS FROM NEPHITES THAT YOU CAN COMPARE TO ANY 5TH CENTURY B.C. JEWS.

Can we stop talking about DNA now? please?

no, since I'd like to know what a reasonable person would say about a very interesting question, namely:
why would God preserve (or at least leave alone) evidence of Israelite & Jewish occupation in the Holy Land so that it can still be recovered, studied, analyzed, but not in Mesoamerica or any other so-called BoM lands???

Also, I’d like to paraphrase an old saying: “in cyberspace, no one can hear you scream”, so putting your statements in bold, caps or whatever, doesn’t make them any more real, truthful or convincing, that any of my arguments or those of others, lets try this; how about using Occam’s Razor, for this little scenario & ask; why would God destroy all the evidence of BoM people, but not the Holy Land people?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

In its simplest form, Occam's Razor states that one should make no more assumptions than needed. Put into everyday language, it says
Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate [Latin]
or
Given two equally predictive theories, choose the simpler.

I think the evidence shows, because J. Smith made the BoM up, its a work of fiction, pure & simple

 

[WildBlueYonder]

WildBlueYonder, what part of "If I will...raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things." don't you understand?

That's what the Book of Mormon says. Get a clue. I've corrected you on this very point numerous times, and still you act like I haven't. Hopefully this will be the last time I have to correct you on this issue.

typical cultist, when caught, you become a verse hopper, so could you read for us, verses 29-34? Mr. word parser?

 

[Marlin]

WBY, Occam's Razor doesn't work in all cases. Sometimes it's wrong. It's just a probability-predictor, not 100% gospel truth in every case.

And it is absolutely hilarious that you yell at Nisus for capitalizing his post, and then put your words that you want emphasized in RED!

 

[Marlin]

Jacob 2:24-34

24 Behold, David and Solomon• truly had many wives• and concubines, which thing was abominable• before me, saith the Lord.

25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous• branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.

27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one• cwife; and concubines he shall have none;

28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed• be the land for their sakes.

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed• unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.

32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.

33 For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms•, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.

34 And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father•, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.
======================================
Here is what is being said in my words:

24. David and Solomon had many unauthorized wives and concubines, which the Lord found abominable (because He had not commanded them to do so. If He had authorized it, they would have been blameless.)

25. The Lord intended to lead the Lehites out of Jerusalem so that He could raise a righteous branch of Israel.

26. The Lord would not allow them to practice abominations, such as David and Solomon did (having unauthorized wives and concubines).

27. The Lord commanded the Nephites to have only one wife and no concubines. Thus, the Nephites received the commandment NOT to practice polygamy. Therefore, because the Lord forbade it, it was wrong for them to do it. This is LDS doctrine as well--if the Lord forbids it, it's wrong. If He authorizes and commands it, it is righteous.

28. The Lord loves chastity and hates whoredoms.

29. The Nephites were commanded to observe the commandments or the land would be cursed.

30. The Lord said, If I want to raise up righteous seed unto me, I will command you to do so by practicing polygamy; Otherwise, do not practice it.

31. The Lord has heard the cries of the wives of wicked husbands in Israel due to their abominations.

32. The Lord will not suffer the wives' cries to come up against their husbands.

33. The Lord will curse those who commit whoredoms with a sore curse unto destruction.

34. The Nephite men have come under condemnation by committing whoredoms and abominations.
===========================

Now WBY, the above passage in no way limits what the Lord can command and what He can't. Nor does it forbid authorized polygamy. It merely says that whoredoms are an abomination, and that unauthorized polygamy such as David and Solomon practiced is wrong.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

WildBlueYonder, what part of "If I will...raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things." don't you understand?

you quote verse 30 out of context, but how else can you sell the fact that J. Smith was a sinner?

here are verses 33-35, that contradict you:
http://www.paganlibrary.com/etext/mormon/jacob/jacob_chapter_2.php

JACOB 2:33. For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.
JACOB 2:34. And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.
JACOB 2:35. Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.

 

[Marlin]

WBY, you are the one quoting out of context. Your quote reinforces the above idea that God will punish UNAUTHORIZED POLYGAMY and other whoredoms. NOWHERE does it say that He cannot authorize polygamy for His own purposes. You are trying to interpret LDS doctrine as meaning something that it doesn't. Let US interpret our own doctrine, for goodness sake.

 

[Nisus]

you quote verse 30 out of context, but how else can you sell the fact that J. Smith was a sinner?

He was by nature a sinner, like normal men. But he's also the only prophet to have been killed on American soil in the last 200 years. He's the only one to claimed to have seen God and got assasinated for it, after he started a religion also.

In the times of the Bible the Jews rejected, stoned and killed their prophets. We live in a time where a Man, claiming to have seen God was KILLED FOR IT. That hasn't happened at all in our history(american) since.

God called a prophet, you rejected the message... you might as well have picked up a stone to join in the murder.

 

[Marlin]

For more information about Joseph Smith and polygamy, see the following site:

Why Did Joseph Smith Preach Against Plural Marriage?

Please note that while critics often claim the Book of Mormon condemns plural marriage, a careful reading of the text shows that this interpretation is incorrect. The Lord condemns plural marriage when the practice is used to gratify lustful desires for sensuality. Such perversion of a sacred doctrine violates the Lord's standards on sexuality. However, at times a divine commandment is given to "raise up seed unto" God. In such cases, the practice is not only approved, but the necessary prerequisites (e.g., patience, love, humility) leads the practitioners into deeper sanctification.

The Bible teaches that the Patriarchs of the Old Testament, who had multiple wives, were still admitted to Heaven:

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 8:11)

I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob[.] God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (Matthew 22:32)

There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out. (Luke 13:28)

If their marital relations were inherently sinful, they surely would have been condemned by God. Why were their actions accepted? Because plural marriage had been sanctioned by the Lord in their case. Yet, men in the Book of Mormon practiced plural marriage and were condemned for it harshly. Why? Because it had not been sanctioned by the Lord in their case.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

In the times of the Bible the Jews rejected, stoned and killed their prophets. We live in a time where a Man, claiming to have seen God was KILLED FOR IT. That hasn't happened at all in our history(american) since.

read real history, he was killed because he practiced polygamy, the mob was going to hang him high, except someone smuggled a gun to him, so there was a shoot-out instead, result; 1 dead polygamist, plus J. Smith shot about 2 dead, several wounded (if I remember right)

you make it seem as if he stood there awaiting his fate stoically, not him, he wasn't going down without a fight

 

[WildBlueYonder]

And it is absolutely hilarious that you yell at Nisus for capitalizing his post, and then put your words that you want emphasized in RED! :-D

I'm not sure if you understand the diff between yelling & emphasis on the internet, capitalizing words is yelling, like so "IN CASE YOU DON'T KNOW THE DIFF", while using color to emphasize, I’m just making sure you don't miss a point by highlighting it.
of course, you might not know, being you may not understand subtle diff's
;-p

oh, & thanks for noticing, lets me know that there is a nogin there

 

[Marlin]

I'm not sure if you understand the diff between yelling & emphasis on the internet, capitalizing words is yelling, like so "IN CASE YOU DON'T KNOW THE DIFF", while using color to emphasize, I’m just making sure you don't miss a point by highlighting it.
of course, you might not know, being you may not understand subtle diff's
;-p

oh, & thanks for noticing, lets me know that there is a nogin there

Ah, the subtleties of wit are lost on you, mon ami. Of course I know what "SHOUTING" on the internet is. I'm amused at you because you objected to Nisus doing it, and then did it yourself with red instead of CAPS.

I don't object to your using red--I use it too. But the fact that you hypocritically took Nisus to task for the same thing you did struck my funny bone. I called TBS and they said, "Why yes, that's mildly funny, you may laugh!" So I did.

And that's.... the REST of the story...

 

[WildBlueYonder]

WBY, you are the one quoting out of context. Your quote reinforces the above idea that God will punish UNAUTHORIZED POLYGAMY and other whoredoms. NOWHERE does it say that He cannot authorize polygamy for His own purposes.

you are a shameless hemmer & hawer, it’s funny to see you bob & weave & verse hop throughout whatever text you think will shore up your flimsy arguments, hahaha

You are trying to interpret LDS doctrine as meaning something that it doesn't. Let US interpret our own doctrine, for goodness sake.

that’s the problem, you guys have done such a bad job of that, that I feel I needed to jump in to help you get it straight, BTW you're welcome

 

[Marlin]

you are a shameless hemmer & hawer, it’s funny to see you bob & weave & verse hop throughout whatever text you think will shore up your flimsy arguments, hahaha
that’s the problem, you guys have done such a bad job of that, that I feel I needed to jump in to help you get it straight, BTW you're welcome

::shrug:: I said that Jacob 2 proved that authorized polygamy was okay.
You said, "Quote verses X through Y and tell me where it says that."
I said, Okay, "Jacob 24-34, with emphasis on verse 30."
You now say, "You're a verse hopper."

I quoted the verses you told me to quote. I interpreted them for you, showing that God will "raise up seed" when He will (authorized polygamy).

Where is the "hemming and hawing" when I just did what you told me to do?