Did Jesus Suffer Enough?
- Thread starter Medicine*Woman
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when clueless talks about god, it is in the negative,like god is a bad god..so he is saying he doesn't believe in god because god is bad.
hmm..humans being rational..nice ideal..not always the case..(see previous posts on 'emotionally based')
he was at least losing out on whatever satan was offering him.
john 5:19
"So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise."
now, i don't know if this was a sacrifice for jesus, since he was born without sin, but for the rest of us, it's a struggle to sacrifice your own will, for the will of the father.
i refer to that struggle and sacrifice as crucifying your flesh. there's a dichotomy between the flesh and the spirit were the desires of the flesh directly oppose the will of the father...
galatians 5:17
For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
if jesus didn't have this struggle himself, then he did in fact die just for all of us.
Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
I dout that Holey Bible God esists... much less that he drowned almos everbody on earf... thats what "beleivers" clame.!!!
Is wantin you'r Bible storys to be true... enuff to make 'em true.???
I dont have beleifs you'r God esists... but ant that part of you'r beleif... to fear you'r God.???
"Sin" is jus anuther thang i dont have beleifs in.!!!
I dout that Holey Bible God esists... much less that he drowned almos everbody on earf... thats what "beleivers" clame.!!!
Is wantin you'r Bible storys to be true... enuff to make 'em true.???
I dont have beleifs you'r God esists... but ant that part of you'r beleif... to fear you'r God.???
"Sin" is jus anuther thang i dont have beleifs in.!!!
maybe thats why so many ppl believe fear equals respect...
sin is a word used to describe certain characteristics..its not a concept..its a definition..
No... dew to a lack of evidence i dont have beleifs that Holey Bible God esists... its comical to me how "beleivers" (out of fear) pant therself into a corner of clamin they want to spend eternity wit a God which the Holey Bible describes as a monster.!!!
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i see. there is also biblical scripture that seems to refer to angels as sons of god. the trinity is a difficult thing to try to get your head around, particularly the relationship between the father and the son, or the difference between them. the way i think about it, i identify the father with law that governs creation, and jesus with the human manifestation of that. which relates to the following discussion...
it also says that the sins of the father are bestowed upon the son, which i think is indicative of genetic traits.
the dichotomy that the bible talks about between the spirit and the flesh is also a sign of where it resides.
galations 5:16
but I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
this is interesting scripture too, speaking of the dichotomy, and also the redemption of our bodies...
Romans 8
Life in the Spirit
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [1] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you [2] free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, [3] he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
Heirs with Christ
12 So then, brothers, [4] we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons [5] of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
Future Glory
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because [6] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
I dont have beleifs you'r God esists... but ant that part of you'r beleif... to fear you'r God.??? ”
Woud you respect you'r God if you didnt fear him.???
I dont have beleifs you'r God esists... but ant that part of you'r beleif... to fear you'r God.??? ”
Woud you respect you'r God if you didnt fear him.???
To LT.
Quoting from your above reference.
"This forum is designed for more scientific approach to the religion, or in other words ‘more rational than emotional’ approach."
You will probably disagree with me, but belief in miracles and the like are not scientific or rational. Thus to discuss them is not appropriate for the science forum, unless it is to examine such claims in the light of scientific knowledge and scientific discussion.
I really do not see why you feel you have to do this anyway. The internet is replete with Christian discussion forums, where you can exercise your superstitious beliefs without let or hindrance. I can assure you that I will not be part of such forums.
Quoting from your above reference.
"This forum is designed for more scientific approach to the religion, or in other words ‘more rational than emotional’ approach."
You will probably disagree with me, but belief in miracles and the like are not scientific or rational. Thus to discuss them is not appropriate for the science forum, unless it is to examine such claims in the light of scientific knowledge and scientific discussion.
I really do not see why you feel you have to do this anyway. The internet is replete with Christian discussion forums, where you can exercise your superstitious beliefs without let or hindrance. I can assure you that I will not be part of such forums.
We believe that Jesus is a perfect prophet of God. The Quran criticizes the way He sometimes is considered to be God by Christians. God says also that He (God) neither has been born to anyone nor has He given birth to anyone.
When it comes to sin. I believe that the believer needs to practice living by the word of God. The body and the devil make sin look fine in our eyes but the spirit needs to be trained to obey only God. Then God will step in and give you the power to stay on the straight path. Tempting things of the past lose their power and obeying God becomes easy. But all of this needs belief, conviction and determination in order to take place. We should not devalue (not take seriously) that good life and satisfaction lies in submitting perfectly to God Almighty.
As to Jesus, prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said one time that he (Jesus) is the only man never been touched by the Devil's fingers. We believe that he is coming back at end of times in order to fight evil. He is the only prophet to be said in the Quran to: a. be a Word spoken (unto Mary) b. equipped with the "Holy Spirit". At couple of verses in the Quran he is referred to as the Messiah Jesus son of Mary (Arabic: Al Masih Aísa ibn Maryam)
I will happily provide references to the verses some time later.
When it comes to sin. I believe that the believer needs to practice living by the word of God. The body and the devil make sin look fine in our eyes but the spirit needs to be trained to obey only God. Then God will step in and give you the power to stay on the straight path. Tempting things of the past lose their power and obeying God becomes easy. But all of this needs belief, conviction and determination in order to take place. We should not devalue (not take seriously) that good life and satisfaction lies in submitting perfectly to God Almighty.
As to Jesus, prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said one time that he (Jesus) is the only man never been touched by the Devil's fingers. We believe that he is coming back at end of times in order to fight evil. He is the only prophet to be said in the Quran to: a. be a Word spoken (unto Mary) b. equipped with the "Holy Spirit". At couple of verses in the Quran he is referred to as the Messiah Jesus son of Mary (Arabic: Al Masih Aísa ibn Maryam)
I will happily provide references to the verses some time later.
does respect need fear?
dunno..i would like to think i would..
Does you'r fear of God keep you from sinnin mor than you do.???
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I agree with you. You will see from my approach that I do want a rational discussion, I do not generally get involved in the emotional to and forth banter that others seem to enjoy. I am more interested in discussing, differences and similarities between different religions and different ways of interpreting religious texts.
The 'scientific' approach to discussing religion is to look at religious beliefs and practices compare and discuss origins etc, it is not supposed to be applying science to the claims of the religions to prove them wrong. There is a separate ‘religion’ sub forum here which seems to be for that purpose.
This is the thing though, it is possible that the billions of religious people across the world are held in check by their fear of the afterlife. If science could absolutely prove and guarantee to all these people that there were no afterlife reproductions, would their behaviour decline. Would they think "hell, why not steal, kill, rape etc, I 'll just take what I can by force in this life cos I know there’s nothing else to come". Even if half of then deteriorated in some way, the net effect across the world could be catastrophic.
I dont know... is fear of afterlife whats keepin you from stealin killin an rapein.???
I suspect that if beleivers in afterlife suddenly realized ther was no afterlife... that sudden change in world view woud have a depressive effect... until they learned to fill that void-of-fear wit ther new found feelin-of-freedom... an if they had prevously been a good or bad person... they woud continue to be that good or bad person.!!!
If you suddenly found out for sure that ther was no Gods/afterlife... wooud you want everbody to suddenly have this knowledge if you was certan it woud have no over-all negetive effect on the world.????
Not me personally , but I suspect it does it for some..
Maybe, maybe not.. can you say for sure. There are a lot of people that spend their lives wresting with their demons (metaphorically)
That’s what I was asking you?
I am from New Zealand, which is a nation of unbelievers. Well, not quite. But almost half our population is openly a non believer in any religion.
The United States by comparison is about 90% avowed religious - mostly Christian, including a hell of a lot of fundamentalists.
What does this religious belief do in terms of serious crime? Well, the murder rate in the USA is 5 per 100,000 per year. In New Zealand, it is 1.2. So religious America has four times the per capita murder rate of non believing New Zealand.
A bit tongue in cheek, I conclude that religion makes people into murderers!
The United States by comparison is about 90% avowed religious - mostly Christian, including a hell of a lot of fundamentalists.
What does this religious belief do in terms of serious crime? Well, the murder rate in the USA is 5 per 100,000 per year. In New Zealand, it is 1.2. So religious America has four times the per capita murder rate of non believing New Zealand.
A bit tongue in cheek, I conclude that religion makes people into murderers!