Did Jesus Suffer Enough?

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
...is fear of afterlife whats keepin you from stealin killin an rapein.??? ”

Light Travelling said:
Not me personally , but I suspect it does it for some..
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So you'r an esample of a person who doesnt need a fear of afterlife to keep the morals you curently have.!!!

My wife is also such an esample... she was raized wit Pennycost (Christan) beleifs thru 20 years old... when i (a atheist) firs saw her at her cousins house i knew i wanted to date her insted of her cousin an we was married 6 mounthes later... she stoped goin to church an her only regret is that she didnt stop goin soomer... she was a grate moral person when she went to church (beleived in afterlife) an that never changed.!!!

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“ Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
I suspect that if beleivers in afterlife suddenly realized ther was no afterlife... that sudden change in world view woud have a depressive effect... until they learned to fill that void-of-fear wit ther new found feelin-of-freedom... an if they had prevously been a good or bad person... they woud continue to be that good or bad person.!!! ”

Maybe, maybe not.. can you say for sure.
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Notice i said "i suspect".!!!

There are a lot of people that spend their lives wresting with their demons (metaphorically)
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An i dout that puttin a fear into 'em so that they will beleive that demons/devels/gosts/gobblins/wiches... ect. are real an out to get 'em... an if they dont beleive certan thangs they will be tortured for eternity... is all that benificial to people who are alredy wrestlin wit troubles.!!!

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“ Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
If you suddenly found out for sure that ther was no Gods/afterlife... wooud you want everbody to suddenly have this knowledge if you was certan it woud have no over-all negetive effect on the world.???? ”

That’s what I was asking you?
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Please note that i answrd what you ask me... what is you'r answr to my queston:::

"If you suddenly found out for sure that ther was no Gods/afterlife... wooud you want everbody to suddenly have this knowledge if you was certan it woud have no over-all negetive effect on the world.???”
 
Skeptical said:
I am from New Zealand, which is a nation of unbelievers. Well, not quite. But almost half our population is openly a non believer in any religion.

The United States by comparison is about 90% avowed religious - mostly Christian, including a hell of a lot of fundamentalists.

What does this religious belief do in terms of serious crime? Well, the murder rate in the USA is 5 per 100,000 per year. In New Zealand, it is 1.2. So religious America has four times the per capita murder rate of non believing New Zealand.

A bit tongue in cheek, I conclude that religion makes people into murderers!
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OK, to keep your tongue in cheek argument going, here is a table of murder rates. Some of the highest are from very religious countries and some of the lowest are from very religious countries, so I would say…. inconclusive

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita


Some of the lowest are Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Greece, all very religious
 
cluelusshusbund said:
So you'r an esample of a person who doesnt need a fear of afterlife to keep the morals you curently have.!!!

My wife is also such an esample... she was raized wit Pennycost (Christan) beleifs thru 20 years old... when i (a atheist) firs saw her at her cousins house i knew i wanted to date her insted of her cousin an we was married 6 mounthes later... she stoped goin to church an her only regret is that she didnt stop goin soomer... she was a grate moral person when she went to church (beleived in afterlife) an that never changed.!!!
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OK I see where your going here… a bit of background on me, I am not a Christain nor am I a member of any other organised religion, nor have I ever been in my life.

I would also say, you do not know what morals I currently have???? Or what morals I have had in the past???


cluelusshusbund said:
“ Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
If you suddenly found out for sure that ther was no Gods/afterlife... wooud you want everbody to suddenly have this knowledge if you was certan it woud have no over-all negetive effect on the world.???? ”
Please note that i answrd what you ask me... what is you'r answr to my queston:::
"If you suddenly found out for sure that ther was no Gods/afterlife... wooud you want everbody to suddenly have this knowledge if you was certan it woud have no over-all negetive effect on the world.???”
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OK a straight answer;

Yes I would want everyone to know.

No I would not be certain that it would have no over all negative effect on the world
 
Skeptical said:
I am from New Zealand, which is a nation of unbelievers. Well, not quite. But almost half our population is openly a non believer in any religion.

The United States by comparison is about 90% avowed religious - mostly Christian, including a hell of a lot of fundamentalists.

What does this religious belief do in terms of serious crime? Well, the murder rate in the USA is 5 per 100,000 per year. In New Zealand, it is 1.2. So religious America has four times the per capita murder rate of non believing New Zealand.

A bit tongue in cheek, I conclude that religion makes people into murderers!
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Hey , here’s another good statistic for you, New Zealand is No.1 in the world for having the highest number of rape victims. So, using your own logic, a lack of religion turns people into rapists :rolleyes:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_vic-crime-rape-victims
 
LT

You have been clearly looking up statistics. Good for you. I love factual data.

Interpretation, however, is another matter. NZ has the highest number of rape victims simply because our women tell the truth. Elsewhere, they protect their relatives by pretending not to have been raped.

Conclusion, the least religious are the most truthful.

(Also tongue in cheek)
 
Actually, upon reflection, I have to comment further on rape.
It is a widely accepted fact that only a small proportion of rape victims ever report the crime. This is especially true when the rapist is a member of the family.

New Zealand authorities have been working hard for many years to encourage reporting of this horrible offense. As a result, reporting has increased greatly. I note that the second highest (Austria) is also a country with low general crime rates. I believe that Austria and NZ have the highest stats for rape victims purely because our societies are more willing to help those who have been raped. Those nations who treat rape victims badly are the ones with low rape victim stats, purely because the unfortunate victims are unwilling to report what happened.

It is also true that the list of countries is massively incomplete. Where is South Africa - known centre of many rapes? Where are the nations with the highest crime rates and the poorest records for treating women?

Look at the following reference, and tell me where the worst nations are?
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap-crime-rapes
 
cluelusshusbund said:
Are you certan thats true.???
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If you mean do I feel certain about it , then yes.

If you mean can I absolutely empirically prove it beyond any doubt at all, then no.

PS;
cluelusshusbund said:
Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
My wife is also such an esample... she was raized wit Pennycost (Christan) beleifs thru 20 years old... when i (a atheist) firs saw her at her cousins house i knew i wanted to date her insted of her cousin an we was married 6 mounthes later... she stoped goin to church an her only regret is that she didnt stop goin soomer... she was a grate moral person when she went to church (beleived in afterlife) an that never changed.!!!
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,I bet your wife’s congregation were pissed at you :D
 
Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Are you certan thats true.??? ”

Light Travelling said:
If you mean do I feel certain about it , then yes.
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Have you ever felt certan about a beleif an later determined that beleif was rong.???

So... do you thank thers anythang for anyone to fear after they dye.???
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Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
...when i (a atheist) firs saw her at her cousins house i knew i wanted to date her insted of her cousin an we was married 6 mounthes later... she stoped goin to church...

I bet your wife’s congregation were pissed at you
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The prevous Preecher of her church had advised her to get rid of her prevous boyfrind because he was a "liberal" type Pennycost (som of the womens cut ther hare)... but that Preecher had to leave the church cause he got caut havin an affare wit 1 of the congragation... an i only went to church wit her 2 times (she was prolly advised to invite me)... an the las time i went the preecher said... let us now get down on our knees an pray... well i/we didnt get down... an after the third time he said it while lookin at us... i tolt her... lets leave an we left... lol... but i dont even recall wonderin what the congregation mite have thout of me... an surprizin to me... her family was nice to me... an they NEVER invited me to go to church an never interfeared in our marriage :shrug:
 
cluelusshusbund said:
Have you ever felt certan about a beleif an later determined that beleif was rong.???
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I think all our beliefs change as we go through our lives, I think that is a good thing. We are on a journey through life and we should adapt our outlook and beliefs as we go through it.

And we all do have beliefs, even if it nothing spiritual. We all choose what morals to believe in for example. There are no objective good or bad morals, so what we choose in that respect are also our beleifs, these too should change as we go through life...



cluelusshusbund said:
So... do you thank thers anythang for anyone to fear after they dye.???
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Nothing to fear I think. I believe there is a continuation of existence after death. Death and life being part of the same cycle. But nothing to fear.
 
Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
So... do you thank thers anythang for anyone to fear after they dye.???

LT
Nothing to fear I think. I believe there is a continuation of existence after death. Death and life being part of the same cycle. But nothing to fear.
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Is ther a "God" which created this continuation of existence after death.???
 
cluelusshusbund said:
Is ther a "God" which created this continuation of existence after death.???
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I think there is a god (I am a theist if you like), but a pantheistic god, an all encompassing god, something like a greater consciousness, or an intelligence to the universe itself.
 
Lori_7 said:
can you guess what it is?
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Aparently... for thangs to be esactly the way they are... if its a all knowin all powerful "God"... but i want to know if LT (or you) beleives that "God" has a purpos for humans beyond what we have alredy esperienced.!!!
 
cluelusshusbund said:
Aparently... for thangs to be esactly the way they are... if its a all knowin all powerful "God"... but i want to know if LT (or you) beleives that "God" has a purpos for humans beyond what we have alredy esperienced.!!!
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even with things being exactly the way they are, and especially given the prospect that they could change, what do you think the purpose of humanity is?
 
cluelusshusbund said:
Aparently... for thangs to be esactly the way they are... if its a all knowin all powerful "God"... but i want to know if LT (or you) beleives that "God" has a purpos for humans beyond what we have alredy esperienced.!!!
Click to expand...

I do not think of god as a separate being controlling the universe or, as us being separate from the universe. I do not see us as being separate from god for that matter, I think that we are all part of the same whole, conscious existence.

The purpose for the future; to evolve; to realise that we are completely interconnected with the universe, to realise that the universe is intelligent; and that we are an integral part of that intelligent universe. The purpose is to realise god, or become god realised, in other words to realise that we are god.
 
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Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Is ther a "God" which created this continuation of existence after death.???

Light Travelling said:
I think there is a god (I am a theist if you like), but a pantheistic god, an all encompassing god, something like a greater consciousness, or an intelligence to the universe itself.
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Do you thank this "God" has a purpos for humans.???

Light Travelling said:
I do not think of god as a separate being controlling the universe or, as us being separate from the universe. I do not see us as being separate from god for that matter, I think that we are all part of the same whole, conscious existence.

The purpose for the future; to evolve; to realise that we are completely interconnected with the universe,
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I thank im alredy evolved to that pont.!!!

to realise that the universe is intelligent;
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Does that include inanimate objects.???

and that we are an integral part of that intelligent universe.
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Integral in what way.???

The purpose is to realise god, or become god realised, in other words to realise that we are god.
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Do you realize you are God... an if so... what effect does it have on you.???

Lori_7 said:
even with things being exactly the way they are, and especially given the prospect that they could change, what do you think the purpose of humanity is?
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As far as i know... any propos we have is ones we make up.!!!

Do you thank we have a God-givin purpos.???
 
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