Did Jesus Suffer Enough?

[Yosef]

i think it's ironic that the only people on this forum i ever hear this "you're going to hell" crap from are atheists.

You might hear that from some Muslims too but this is because they have faulty understanding of their own religion and/or because they see many westerns behaving in manners that contradict the word of God. Everyone who believes in God and in that which has been revealed by God are going to enter paradise.

"(15) SAY: Is this, or the Paradise of Eternity which was promised to the God-fearing, best? Their recompense shall it be and their retreat; (16) Abiding therein for ever, they shall have in it all that they desire! It is a promise to be claimed of thy Lord." Holy Quran - The Criterion - 25:15-16

"Among the people of the Book are those who believe in God, and in what He hath sent down to you, and in what He hath sent down to them, humbling themselves before God. They barter not the signs of God for a mean price. These shall have their reward with their Lord; verily God is swift in account." Holy Quran - Family of Imran - 3:199​

Talking about Jesus peace upon Him:

"(29) And she made a sign to them, pointing towards the babe. They said, "How shall we speak with him who is in the cradle, an infant? (30) It said, "Verily, I am the servant of God; He hath given me the Book, and He hath made me a prophet; (31) And He hath made me blessed wherever I may be, and hath enjoined me prayer and almsgiving so long as I shall live; (32) And to be duteous to her that bare me: and he hath not made me proud, depraved. (33) And the peace of God was on me the day I was born, and will be the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised to life. (34) This is Jesus, the son of Mary; this is a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt." Holy Quran - Mary - 19:29-34​

There are many other verses talking about Jesus, Christians and Jews in the Quran. At the very beginning of the Quran God defines the believers as those who believe in what has been revealed upon the heart of Muhammad (pbuh) and in that which was been revealed earlier i.e. Books of Moses, Prophets, and Gospels of new testament.

 

[Light Travelling]

I entered this thread some time ago because I had some information I thought was of interest. However, I involve myself in this science forum because I love science. Religion is not science. Some aspects of religion can be discussed scientifically, and that is appropriate for this part of the forum.

This subsection is comparative religion, where the beliefs of differing religions may be discussed and compared with each other. I think the emphasis should be on the beleifs of the religions rather than those of the people posting.

Where I was originally going with this, was a look at how the Christian bible can be interpreted in line with eastern religious thought, specifically Hindu. Some Christians (per Loris comment) are very taken with the ‘in the flesh’ aspects of the bible, but we can equally look at the spirit references and the references to man being like God. We then can see similarities to the divinity of man, spiritual origins and re-incarnation that are talked of in various Hindu schools of thought. (now maybe I should have started another thread for that but..… well I didn’t)

i'm sorry but, i don't agree with your viewpoint at all.

Are you saying that ‘you’ don’t agree with my point of view? Or that traditional Christianity doesn’t agree with my point of view? I understood you to be a Christian, which was why I specifically directed my question at you.

Incidentally, I am not necessarily expressing my point of view here, what I am doing is exploring different interpretations of the Bible with a view to comparison with other religions…

man was created along with the earth, plants, animals, and was made of the earth. man walked in the garden with god, until they were genetically manipulated (sin) to know evil. the purpose of christ is to bring us genetically, back to our original state (biologically), only now, knowing of good and evil, because of our opportunity to experience it.

But the key phrase (even traditionally) in the creation of man story is that, "God breathed life giving breath into man" Gen 2:7. This is generally accepted as god imparting spirit to man i.e. giving him a spiritual part, Gen1:2 again talks of the spirit of god.

Now I have heard Christians talk of the dead rising to life in the flesh before, but the genetics you are talking about; Is that just your opinion or is there a particular branch of a church that adheres to those thoughts?

Ether you or LT is rong... but no prollem... Gods plan includes a place for people who dont corectly figer out the puzzle of makein it to heaven... an heres anuther puzzler... its a hot place... begins wit "H" an has 4 letters... eh.!!!

It is not necessarily about right and wrong but differing interpretations of religious texts.

If we apply the Hindu model of reincarnation, no one goes to hell for eternity because people get unlimited lives to get it right. (grossly oversimplified)

 

[Light Travelling]

There are many other verses talking about Jesus, Christians and Jews in the Quran. At the very beginning of the Quran God defines the believers as those who believe in what has been revealed upon the heart of Muhammad (pbuh) and in that which was been revealed earlier i.e. Books of Moses, Prophets, and Gospels of new testament.

The bible would actually agree with you on that, although you’d be hard pushed to find a Christian who would admit it.
COL 3:11 “Christ is in all; gentile; Jew; barbarian; savage”

 

[cluelusshusbund]

i think it's ironic that the only people on this forum i ever hear this "you're going to hell" crap from are atheists.

I dont find it ironic that you woud find it ironic that atheists woud discuss main stream beleifs of a main stream religion... cause you have tunnel-vision to you'r own beleifs which include that everbody is alredy in hell... lol.!!!
-------------------

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Ether you or LT is rong... but no prollem... Gods plan includes a place for people who dont corectly figer out the puzzle of makein it to heaven... an heres anuther puzzler... its a hot place... begins wit "H" an has 4 letters... eh.!!!

Light Trvelling
It is not necessarily about right and wrong but differing interpretations of religious texts.

Yes... an my broader pont is... these diferent interpretations cant all be corect but they coud all be rong.!!!

 

[Lori_7]

I dont find it ironic that you woud find it ironic that atheists woud discuss main stream beleifs of a main stream religion... cause you have tunnel-vision to you'r own beleifs which include that everbody is alredy in hell... lol.!!!

lol!!!

you must think i just fell of the proverbial turnip truck! hardy har har, der!

i've been around here long enough to know that most atheists aren't a bit interested in discussing main stream beliefs of a man stream religion. they're really interested in being repugnant towards those who believe.

 

[Lori_7]

You might hear that from some Muslims too but this is because they have faulty understanding of their own religion and/or because they see many westerns behaving in manners that contradict the word of God. Everyone who believes in God and in that which has been revealed by God are going to enter paradise.

"(15) SAY: Is this, or the Paradise of Eternity which was promised to the God-fearing, best? Their recompense shall it be and their retreat; (16) Abiding therein for ever, they shall have in it all that they desire! It is a promise to be claimed of thy Lord." Holy Quran - The Criterion - 25:15-16

"Among the people of the Book are those who believe in God, and in what He hath sent down to you, and in what He hath sent down to them, humbling themselves before God. They barter not the signs of God for a mean price. These shall have their reward with their Lord; verily God is swift in account." Holy Quran - Family of Imran - 3:199​

Talking about Jesus peace upon Him:

"(29) And she made a sign to them, pointing towards the babe. They said, "How shall we speak with him who is in the cradle, an infant? (30) It said, "Verily, I am the servant of God; He hath given me the Book, and He hath made me a prophet; (31) And He hath made me blessed wherever I may be, and hath enjoined me prayer and almsgiving so long as I shall live; (32) And to be duteous to her that bare me: and he hath not made me proud, depraved. (33) And the peace of God was on me the day I was born, and will be the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised to life. (34) This is Jesus, the son of Mary; this is a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt." Holy Quran - Mary - 19:29-34​

There are many other verses talking about Jesus, Christians and Jews in the Quran. At the very beginning of the Quran God defines the believers as those who believe in what has been revealed upon the heart of Muhammad (pbuh) and in that which was been revealed earlier i.e. Books of Moses, Prophets, and Gospels of new testament.

hi yosef,

do muslims then believe that jesus is the christ and that salvation is found in him?

 

[cluelusshusbund]

lol!!!

you must think i just fell of the proverbial turnip truck!

Thats puttin it mildly... lol.!!!

i've been around here long enough to know that most atheists aren't a bit interested in discussing main stream beliefs of a man stream religion.

An yet... hell is a main stream beleif of a main stream religion you accuse atheists of brangin up for discussion... lol.!!!

they're really interested in being repugnant towards those who believe.

An i notice "beleivers" not willin to have a honest discusson about hell... so its go-time... lol... lets me an you have a honest... non-repugnant discusson about hell... yes.???

 

[Lori_7]

Thats puttin it mildly... lol.!!!



An yet... hell is a main stream beleif of a main stream religion you accuse atheists of brangin up for discussion... lol.!!!



An i notice "beleivers" not willin to have a honest discusson about hell... so its go-time... lol... lets me an you have a honest... non-repugnant discusson about hell... yes.???

no. never been there, so i don't know a thing about it. sorry.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
...lets me an you have a honest... non-repugnant discusson about hell... yes.???

no.

lol.!!!

 

[Light Travelling]

hi yosef,

do muslims then believe that jesus is the christ and that salvation is found in him?

Muslims believe Jesus is a prophet of god, but not the son of god.

 

[Lori_7]

Are you saying that ‘you’ don’t agree with my point of view? Or that traditional Christianity doesn’t agree with my point of view? I understood you to be a Christian, which was why I specifically directed my question at you.

Incidentally, I am not necessarily expressing my point of view here, what I am doing is exploring different interpretations of the Bible with a view to comparison with other religions…

to me, christian faith is a very personal thing. it's not about tradition with me and i don't feel like it's appropriate to speak for anyone else, much less the majority. having said that, from what i've observed and heard from the majority, is that the kingdom of christ will be here on earth, and that we will inhabit immortal bodies.

look at the lord's prayer...

thy kingdom come. thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

But the key phrase (even traditionally) in the creation of man story is that, "God breathed life giving breath into man" Gen 2:7. This is generally accepted as god imparting spirit to man i.e. giving him a spiritual part, Gen1:2 again talks of the spirit of god.

we are spiritual beings yes. i believe that everything that is material is a spiritual manifestation. i apologize, i'm not much of a bible thumper, but it does say that somewhere in the book.

Now I have heard Christians talk of the dead rising to life in the flesh before, but the genetics you are talking about; Is that just your opinion or is there a particular branch of a church that adheres to those thoughts?

i really don't know if there are many, or even some, who think on things the way i do. but it seems fairly common sense to me that if sin resides in the flesh and we are all born into it, that it is a genetic condition.

 

[Lori_7]

Muslims believe Jesus is a prophet of god, but not the son of god.

that's kind of funny. i suppose they think he wasn't a very good or accurate prophet since he claimed repeatedly to be the only way to the father. through him, the son.

 

[Cifo]

To begin with, how much did he suffer in losing his mortal form? He was God after all, who was given a taste of mortal life. It would be like a human losing their Internet privileges forever, and their presence in cyberspace ends. It would be sorely missed by us, but it would not be the end of our world.

How much did he really enjoy his life on Earth? It's not as though he was filthy rich and living like a king, or that he was a hedonistic party animal. So what was he losing?

 

[NMSquirrel]

I woud have to have beleifs that "God" esists to be rong about who or what God is.!!!

Well for myself... i have no idea if ther realy is a God or Gods... but if a "God" did create life the way it is... "its" a monster-God... so for me... the idea of "livin" forever ant a very sweet deal if it involves spendin eternity wit a sadistic mass murderer.!!!

you have already determined that god is a mass murderer..

 

[Light Travelling]

that's kind of funny. i suppose they think he wasn't a very good or accurate prophet since he claimed repeatedly to be the only way to the father. through him, the son.

Well, they believe that it is erroneous translation and interpretation that have led Christians to think he is the son of god. Jesus often refers to himself as the son of man in the bible. There are in fact only a few direct references to Jesus the person being the only son of god.

Here is a passage, Koran :76
“They are unbelievers who say, God is the messiah, Mary’s son. For the Messiah said ‘Children of Israel , serve God, my lord and your lord’”

And 2:254
“And we gave Jesus, son of Mary the clear signs, and confirmed him with the holy spirit”

And of course the only way to the father could still be through him (through his teachings) without him actually being the son of god.

i really don't know if there are many, or even some, who think on things the way i do. but it seems fairly common sense to me that if sin resides in the flesh and we are all born into it, that it is a genetic condition.

Ok , but your premise is that sin resides in the flesh, where do you get that from? I do not think the bible ever says that?

It says we are born into sin, but not that sin resides in the flesh. And even born in sin can have different interpretations.

 

[NMSquirrel]

I think the emphasis should be on the beleifs of the religions rather than those of the people posting.

its easier for ppl to belittle other ppl than it is to belittle the ideas presented.

Incidentally, I am not necessarily expressing my point of view here, what I am doing is exploring different interpretations of the Bible with a view to comparison with other religions…

don't let the idiots get you sidetracked in a slam war..

It is not necessarily about right and wrong but differing interpretations of religious texts.

one must consider how they:
think,feel,know,and believe
in any given area of their life before they determine what is right or wrong..
unfortunatly,we tend to make our decisions based on how we feel,and do not consider the think,know,believe part..

If we apply the Hindu model of reincarnation, no one goes to hell for eternity because people get unlimited lives to get it right. (grossly oversimplified)

some would consider that hell...
which are you..the whale or the petunias..

 

[Skeptical]

I still believe this is an inappropriate forum for a discussion of Christian superstitions, such as the "miracle" of transsubstantiation.

My own interest in religion is psychological. I am constantly puzzled and therefore interested in the irrationality of most people. Superstition and religion typify this lack of rationality in human thought.

When it comes to telling people they are going to hell, that is not me. Heaven and hell are simply more superstitious beliefs.

Incidentally, I am not really someone who cares if you have a religious belief. But I am interested in how you got it. If you simply chose to believe what priests, parents etc told you, then you are behaving irrationally.

If your belief is based on reading a book that is thousands of years old and demonstrably riddled with errors of fact, then your belief is irrational.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

If you claim to have experienced a "spiritual moment", then your belief is also irrational. Such moments can be induced by drugs, meditation, or even a whack over the head. Any chemical imbalance.

If, on the other hand, you have decided in the existence of deity as a result of careful and rational thought, then I have no problem with your decision (I do not agree, but I have no problem with it).

If you are religious, are you rational about it, or not? If irrational, then your belief has no merit and no strength.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

you have already determined that god is a mass murderer..

I dout that Holey Bible God esists... much less that he drowned almos everbody on earf... thats what "beleivers" clame.!!!

 

[NMSquirrel]

But I am interested in how you got it. If you simply chose to believe what priests, parents etc told you, then you are behaving irrationally.

do as your told...hate that..

If your belief is based on reading a book that is thousands of years old and demonstrably riddled with errors of fact, then your belief is irrational.

i use it to confirm what god has taught me, and to communicate certain concepts and idea's, i do not view the bible as a rule book,it is not..i view it as a guide book.

If you claim to have experienced a "spiritual moment", then your belief is also irrational. Such moments can be induced by drugs, meditation, or even a whack over the head. Any chemical imbalance.

does having a moment and not realizing you were having a moment till after the fact count?

If, on the other hand, you have decided in the existence of deity as a result of careful and rational thought, then I have no problem with your decision (I do not agree, but I have no problem with it).

depends on if your the type who puts christians in a box or not (you don't seem like it.)

 

[NMSquirrel]

I dout that Holey Bible God esists... much less that he drowned almos everbody on earf... thats what "beleivers" clame.!!!

that is what you are choosing to believe..
why are you so scared of god?
is it a 'if i believe in him, he will punish me for my sins' thing?