BOOK DEBATE: Hitler and Christianity

[Joe K.]

You are wrong about that. Even before the National Socialists cared about attracting an electoral majority, their ideology was infused with Christian themes.

"In Christ, the embodiment of all manliness, we find all that we need. And if we occasionally speak of Baldur, our words always contain some joy, some satisfaction, that our pagan ancestors were already so Christian as to have indications of Christ in this ideal figure"

"Christ stands never otherwise than erect, never otherwise than upright...eyes flashing in the midst of the creeping Jewish rabble...and the words fall like lashes of the whip:"Your father is the devil ()

Deitrich Eckart, "Bolshevism from Moses to Lenin: a conversation between Adolf Hitler and myself" (1924)​

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The National Socialist movement was often described both among themselves and to the public, as a struggle between opposites: Christianity-Judaism, creation-destruction,good-evil, God-Satan, redemption-annihilation.

Has Steigmann-Gall pulled the wool over your eyes with his false and misleading book?

More later, I have to go.

You might think though about the many Darwinian themes in Mein Kampf. Also, Hitler's concept of Christianity was identical to Nietzsche's.

 

[spidergoat]

I'm not finished with the book, but it is scholarly and annotated with references. It seems historians have been pulling the wool over our eyes for some time. It's true that a kind of phoney Darwinism was a part of the Nazi movement, but Darwinism isn't a religion.

 

[John99]

It's true that a kind of phoney Darwinism was a part of the Nazi movement...

NOW you call it "phoney" but then thats what anyone would say.

but Darwinism isn't a religion.

What is the difference if they use it for doing bad? If you want to look at things from an accurate standpoint the Nazi's were influenced by many of the quacks of the time and not only in science but in mystical beliefs. Just like Richard Ramirez, do you say "well his parents were religious" so..." Now we can say the same for anything like "he looked at violent movies" etc. but what about all the other people who do and dont do those things? Its just a bad brain does bad things.

 

[John99]

1. This is not a quote from the Sermon on the Mount. I won't be waiting as I know you can't find one.

It seems to be made up.

 

[John99]

Photizo, if you are trying to point out religious opposition to Nazism, that is well known. It does not contradict the existence of a pro-Nazi element in German Christianity, or the ideological connections between them.

But that is what we are saying. There is more if a connection to Darwinism and eugenics than for religious purposes. This in no way implies say Darwinism caused Nazism? That would be the definition of ignorance.

 

[spidergoat]

NOW you call it "phoney" but then thats what anyone would say.



What is the difference if they use it for doing bad? If you want to look at things from an accurate standpoint the Nazi's were influenced by many of the quacks of the time and not only in science but in mystical beliefs. Just like Richard Ramirez, do you say "well his parents were religious" so..." Now we can say the same for anything like "he looked at violent movies" etc. but what about all the other people who do and dont do those things? Its just a bad brain does bad things.

Big difference. Darwinism is a theory about how the species came about. It's also a fact. To say the Nazis used Darwinism for evil is the same as saying they used the internal combustion engine for evil. The Nazis didn't use Christianity for evil, many of them were Christians, thus negating the premise that Christianity is good. It may be good for you personally, but it in no way creates good societies.

Furthermore, the social Darwinism they practiced was not based on any sound science. They liked phrenology and many other pseudoscientific concepts.

 

[John99]

So it doesnt matter that they believed in Darwinism AND were involved (heavily) in Eugenics?

 

[spidergoat]

1. This is not a quote from the Sermon on the Mount. I won't be waiting as I know you can't find one.

I don't care about your format requirements. My quote proved that leading Nazis took the Sermon on the Mount as primal inspiration. That shows the connection.

2. In the novel, Goebbels rejects organized religion as irrelevant and turns to National Socialism. Steigmann-Gall's failure to mention this and using quotes from the book to make it seem as if Goebbels was a Christian was very dishonest - or maybe just incompetent "scholarship."

So, only organized religion is Christianity? They admired Luther who turned the tables on how Christianity had been organized since it began. National Socialism was informed and inspired in part by Christianity. I know it's hard to accept but it seems to be true.

 

[John99]

After reading post 86 over i see that you are loaded with logical fallacies, in this case.

 

[spidergoat]

So it doesnt matter that they believed in Darwinism AND were involved (heavily) in Eugenics?

Why should it matter? If it worked, it worked. Eugenics does work. The science of Eugenics says nothing about the ethical issues involved.

 

[John99]

Why should it matter? If it worked, it worked. Eugenics does work. The science of Eugenics says nothing about the ethical issues involved.

We dont know if eugenics would work implicitly though. Could always backfire and cause more genetic problems too in the long run.

 

[John99]

Big difference. Darwinism is a theory about how the species came about. It's also a fact. To say the Nazis used Darwinism for evil is the same as saying they used the internal combustion engine for evil.

Your contradicting yourself. I think Hitler was more concerned with expansion but some ideas were corrupted and cannot blame "Darwinism" on that. But according to you we would.

The Nazis didn't use Christianity for evil, many of them were Christians,

So were many\most of the people who fought them. I still doubt the Nazis had even the slightest religious motivations. Still does not account for other wars either though and there were many. Even going back to cave men.

t may be good for you personally, but it in no way creates good societies.

I am more Agnostic than anything else. Still does not negate the fact that Atheist societies committed genocides and horrific atrocities and cruelties. Although we cant blame it on the societies in general.

 

[spidergoat]

No one is suggesting that atheism will prevent people from being evil. That is quite the opposite from what Christianity pretends to be. You doubt that the Nazis had even the slightest religious motivations, and you are just wrong about that. Not only did many of them have religious motivations, they found in Christianity an ideology that they felt was aligned with National Socialism in many ways.

 

[John99]

You doubt that the Nazis had even the slightest religious motivations, and you are just wrong about that.

We dont know what some or many of them believed or didnt believe either. What did they do that was religious? I dont even think they had any religious insignias.

You are forgetting that the main reason for WW2 was expansion. Eliminate that and Hitler and you wouldn't have had a war.

 

[spidergoat]

The ethnic cleansing of Germany would still have happened. That was often explained in religious terms, as the materialistic Jew vs. the spiritual Christian, as being for the common good over personal desires and freedoms.

 

[John99]

That was often explained in religious terms, as the materialistic Jew vs. the spiritual Christian,

Where did you get that from?

 

[spidergoat]

The book I mentioned.

 

[Lori_7]

i know this is a strange source, but i watched a documentary recently that presented much of the same information, saying that hitler and the entire nazi party were heavily influenced by the occult...

http://www.illuminati-news.com/hitler-occult.htm

 

[Joe K.]

You are wrong about that. Even before the National Socialists cared about attracting an electoral majority, their ideology was infused with Christian themes.

"In Christ, the embodiment of all manliness, we find all that we need. And if we occasionally speak of Baldur, our words always contain some joy, some satisfaction, that our pagan ancestors were already so Christian as to have indications of Christ in this ideal figure"

"Christ stands never otherwise than erect, never otherwise than upright...eyes flashing in the midst of the creeping Jewish rabble...and the words fall like lashes of the whip:"Your father is the devil ()

Deitrich Eckart, "Bolshevism from Moses to Lenin: a conversation between Adolf Hitler and myself" (1924)​

​

The National Socialist movement was often described both among themselves and to the public, as a struggle between opposites: Christianity-Judaism, creation-destruction,good-evil, God-Satan, redemption-annihilation.

Why didn't you include any quotes from Mein Kampf stating that the perishing of the weaker species leads to advancement and progress (Darwinism)? Hitler referred to Christianity's Jewish origins, and expressed hostility to its missionary activity, and called it "intolerant." I was going to bring the exactquotes but forget to put them on my flash.

Some statement, any statements, about Christ are not proof of Christianity.

Can you find some quotes about the virgin birth? The Trinity? Christ's death on the cross as a sacrifice for the sins of the world? The day of judgment and eternity in heaven or hell? The need to follow what Christ taught?

Of course you can't.

 

[Joe K.]

Yes, I believe he aimed to emulate the values of Christ in seeking justice for his people. ...In standing up for what he believed no matter what the consequences. He percieved the Jews as violating the principles Christ taught in their valuing the material over the spiritual. He said as much.

National Socialists in general tended to align themselves with the example of Luther in being dismissive of the formal clergy. Just like Jesus went against the temples of his day.

Hitler sought justice for his people????

Did Jesus try to conquer other nations?

Saying the Jews valued the material over the spiritual was a standard doctrine of secular philosophical anti-Semitism starting with Kant. It has nothing to do with the bible and nothing to do with anything Christ said about the Jews.

Maybe you think Hitler tried to live by "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."