BOOK DEBATE: Hitler and Christianity

[spidergoat]

Darwinism is true. That's the only defense I need to make of that. The "stronger" species does not always survive. Strength doesn't equal fitness.

Christianity is a religion, it cannot be shown to be true. So we can dismiss it without having to deny reality.

 

[Joe K.]

The plays were based on the Biblical story, even if the Bible did not proscribe actual plays. The mythology is that the Jews gave him up to the Romans.

I'm not discounting that some people had secular reasons for hating Jews, but Nazi anti-semitism was intimately connected to religious issues. They followed the old testament, which many Nazis and even clergy long before WWI believed should be struck from the canonical Bible.

That the Jews were plottingto take over the world or were a threat to the purity of the Aryan race had nothing to do with traditional religious anti-Semitism. Secular anti-Semitism starting with Kant and developed by Fichte and Schopenhauer, Wagner and Chamberlain, was not religious in orientation.

 

[Joe K.]

The notion that atheist hatred of religion undermines their rationality is an ad hominem attack on their legitimate criticism of religion. Note that you didn't criticize any particular atheist point, only sought to dismiss their arguments as irrational due to passion.

Anyway, we don't have to dwell on that.

What is the connection between the neo-cons and Christ? I would say it has to do with embracing faith and rejecting reason. Conservative principles seem to be based on faith that God is taking care of everything, that through Earth he will continue to be a provider as long as we are pious. If you think God is in control, then obviously he put the oil here for us to use, and our use of it is part of the plan, and can have no detrimental consequences. This goes against everything that science has revealed recently about the effects of carbon on the climate.

The same principles affect their ideas about abortion. Rejection of abortion is usually based on the idea of God imbuing the blastocyst with a soul, and the purely religious idea that humans aren't animals.

The same faith fuels their rejection of the scientific evidence for evolution.

The same faith fuels their characterization of Islam as an enemy of their (percieved) Christian nation, since they reject the divinity of Jesus.

The same faith fuels their paradoxical support of Israel. The Jews also reject the divinity of Jesus, but God needs them for the second coming, or something.

That would be a good post on another thread.

I see you have very little understanding of what many Christians believe.

 

[Joe K.]

I'm not finished with the book, but it is scholarly and annotated with references. It seems historians have been pulling the wool over our eyes for some time. It's true that a kind of phoney Darwinism was a part of the Nazi movement, but Darwinism isn't a religion.

Phoney Darwinism?

People are animals. We emerged out of a struggle in which the strong survived and the weak died. That is what life is all about. Traditional ethics are meaningless and have no basis.

Maybe Hitler understood Darwin better than you.

 

[Joe K.]

Big difference. Darwinism is a theory about how the species came about. It's also a fact. To say the Nazis used Darwinism for evil is the same as saying they used the internal combustion engine for evil. The Nazis didn't use Christianity for evil, many of them were Christians, thus negating the premise that Christianity is good. It may be good for you personally, but it in no way creates good societies.

Furthermore, the social Darwinism they practiced was not based on any sound science. They liked phrenology and many other pseudoscientific concepts.

But the evil ws inherent in Darwinism. Life as struggle without ethics, people as animals . . .

You cannot show many Nazis were Christians. Which of them believed in the Trinity, that Jesus was God come to earth in human form, that he died on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins, rose again, and will return as God?

You willfind no support for such beliefs by Nazis - they despised such things.

 

[Joe K.]

I don't care about your format requirements. My quote proved that leading Nazis took the Sermon on the Mount as primal inspiration. That shows the connection.

This is not a "format requirement." I asked for something from the Sermon on the Mount that Hitler believed and followed and you gave me a quote from somewhere else. Biblically, you cannot link Hitler to Christ.

So, only organized religion is Christianity? They admired Luther who turned the tables on how Christianity had been organized since it began. National Socialism was informed and inspired in part by Christianity. I know it's hard to accept but it seems to be true.

Christianity is belief in Christ as God and also an attempt to follow his teachings out of love. Admiring Luther does not make one a christian. many people admired Luther for his stand against the papacy without being Christians.

 

[Joe K.]

Why should it matter? If it worked, it worked. Eugenics does work. The science of Eugenics says nothing about the ethical issues involved.

Right, it works, so who cares about ethics? You and Hitler have smething in common. Just kill all of those weak and inferior people who have no business living.

Darwinism is in essence heartless and cruel.

 

[Joe K.]

No one is suggesting that atheism will prevent people from being evil. That is quite the opposite from what Christianity pretends to be. You doubt that the Nazis had even the slightest religious motivations, and you are just wrong about that. Not only did many of them have religious motivations, they found in Christianity an ideology that they felt was aligned with National Socialism in many ways.

So how does Christianity align with national Socialism in many ways? Quotes from the New Testament please. Aryan supremacy, might makes right, militarism, imperialism, exterminations - you cannot link this to the New Testament.

 

[Joe K.]

The ethnic cleansing of Germany would still have happened. That was often explained in religious terms, as the materialistic Jew vs. the spiritual Christian, as being for the common good over personal desires and freedoms.

It was explained in secular terms as the need to keep the Germans racially pure.

Common good of the state and the race over private concerns is not Christian at all.

Some christian rhetoric was used on occasions to encourage support froma broader base of the German people, but you cannot plausibly say Mein Kampf is a christian book founded on Christianity.

 

[Joe K.]

Darwinism is true. That's the only defense I need to make of that. The "stronger" species does not always survive. Strength doesn't equal fitness.

Christianity is a religion, it cannot be shown to be true. So we can dismiss it without having to deny reality.

Darwiniism is not true. It is false. That's the only defense I need to make of my views.

Your definition of 'reality' is highly subjective.

 

[spidergoat]

LOL. You can deny reality all you want, but evolution is real. Saying the Nazis used Darwinism for evil is like saying they used gunpowder for evil.

 

[John99]

i know this is a strange source, but i watched a documentary recently that presented much of the same information, saying that hitler and the entire nazi party were heavily influenced by the occult...

Too far out there to take seriously as a deciding factor and these were not ignorant people afa reading some books and going nuts. Sure they (some) dabbled in it but i would tend to think it had more to do with this:

http://www.methamphetamineaddiction.com/methamphetamine_timeline.html

These dates are very interesting and the fact is that not much was known at that time about the down side. I believe the actions exhibited clearly show the effects of the drugs long term use. Of course not everyone HEAVILY addicted will automatically turn into a homicidal mass murderer, although violent behavior is common, BUT if one had that predilection\possible tendency then it can very well push it over the edge.

I first heard about this on the t.v. but i have to say it makes sense.

Edit: I just want to add that the soldiers were given Pervitin tablets but this is very different than the powerful injections Hitler was getting and tbh would not surprise me that many of the higher ups (SS) were also getting potent supplies. This is verifiable, at least about Hitler, from a google search and seems to be very accurate first hand accounts. Also remember that it is the method of ingestion that is a factor as well.

 

[IamJoseph]

This is not a "format requirement." I asked for something from the Sermon on the Mount that Hitler believed and followed and you gave me a quote from somewhere else. Biblically, you cannot link Hitler to Christ.

Are you selecting lines from the Gospels - it also says Jews are born of the devil and their synagogues are satan's den. But it omits who did all the satanic deeds - this gong falls squarely on Christians more than any other group in history, and gave rise to the world's most heinous villifications and terrible people - now deemed as Saints: Luther, Isabela, Pope Pius and Adolf.

On the heels of the Holocaust:

"WE WILL NEVER SUPPORT THE RETURN OF THE JEWS TO THEIR HOMELAND - BECAUSE THEY REJECTED JC" - Pope not so Pius on the eve of W.W.II.

What will Jesus say to one climbing the salvation mountain with such baggage - even by scraping his nails to get up there? It stains all Christians - even a saintly old woman with dementia who can't remember her name anymore. Result: Christians keep silent that a death-to-Israel 3 state is called a 2-state. Christian arithmetic - why blame Jesus when the ones holding the knives is esewhere?

Christianity is belief in Christ as God and also an attempt to follow his teachings out of love. Admiring Luther does not make one a christian. many people admired Luther for his stand against the papacy without being Christians.

What teachings?

 

[pjdude1219]

Are you selecting lines from the Gospels - it also says Jews are born of the devil and their synagogues are satan's den. But it omits who did all the satanic deeds - this gong falls squarely on Christians more than any other group in history, and gave rise to the world's most heinous villifications and terrible people - now deemed as Saints: Luther, Isabela, Pope Pius and Adolf.

On the heels of the Holocaust:

"WE WILL NEVER SUPPORT THE RETURN OF THE JEWS TO THEIR HOMELAND - BECAUSE THEY REJECTED JC" - Pope not so Pius on the eve of W.W.II.

What will Jesus say to one climbing the salvation mountain with such baggage - even by scraping his nails to get up there? It stains all Christians - even a saintly old woman with dementia who can't remember her name anymore. Result: Christians keep silent that a death-to-Israel 3 state is called a 2-state. Christian arithmetic - why blame Jesus when the ones holding the knives is esewhere?





Christianity is belief in Christ as God and also an attempt to follow his teachings out of love. Admiring Luther does not make one a christian. many people admired Luther for his stand against the papacy without being Christians.

Do you ever fact check or do you say what ever pops in that little head of yours? protestants don't believe in saints and hitler is certainly not a saint. also there is no saint Isabella thgere is however a saint Isabelle. once again your your efforts to promote jewish supremacy and eternaly victimness you play loose with the facts.

 

[IamJoseph]

Darwinism is true.

LOL. And Genesis' mythical seed factor does not have any place - the 'fittest' did it. Darwin had special goggles to see past it - or not even see it.

 

[IamJoseph]

Do you ever fact check

Yes.

or do you say what ever pops in that little head of yours? protestants don't believe in saints and hitler is certainly not a saint. also there is no saint Isabella thgere is however a saint Isabelle. once again your your efforts to promote jewish supremacy and eternaly victimness you play loose with the facts.

Martin Luther's dirty little book:
On the Jews and their lies
A precursor to Nazism
by Jim Walker


Introduction

I wish to make clear that the purpose of these selections from Martin Luther aims at providing a historical and scholarly source for study of anti-Semitism, religious thought, and how it has influenced the German population and their outlook on Jews.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/luther.htm

Saint Isabela: "BETTER TO DESTROY THEIR BODIES AND SAVE THEIR SOULS"

If Hitler won - he would have been made a saint too. Sorry if the truth does not set you free - but denial will only repeat what was done.

 

[pjdude1219]

Yes.

that a lie because you have stated things that even a casual internet search would have revealed as false.

Saint Isabela: "BETTER TO DESTROY THEIR BODIES AND SAVE THEIR SOULS"

If Hitler won - he would have been made a saint too. Sorry if the truth does not set you free - but denial will only repeat what was done.

Luther was a protestant and wasn't a saint there is no saint Isabella. No one with the name of Isabella has been beatified.

hitler wouldn't have been made a saint

I'd comment on pope pius but not knowing which one your refering two makes it impossible to respond. no please quit saying these down right false hoods

 

[John99]

Saint Isabela: "BETTER TO DESTROY THEIR BODIES AND SAVE THEIR SOULS"

Do you have proof that she said that?

 

[pjdude1219]

Do you have proof that she said that?

there is no proof of that because there is no Saint Isabella. the only Isabella that has been tried to have been made a saint, Isabella the first of Castile probably would have said it but her anti jewish comments are the primary reason she has not been beatified which of course would shot holes through his theory.

 

[John99]

I think he is getting the Isaballas mixed up.