Enmos
Valued Senior Member
Where ?
atheists, please explain yourselves..
- Thread starter scifes
- Start date
Where ?
circular reasoning fallacy:
stating in one's proposition that which one aims to prove. (e.g. God exists because the Bible says so; the Bible exists because God influenced it.)
http://www.nobeliefs.com/fallacies.htm
it does?
news to me.
perhaps youd like to show us this dead end..
however before you do,get some education
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html
www.talkorigins.org
only thing that is a dead end is religious book thats thinks it has all the answers and STOPS your mind from thinking/evolving further
btw atheism has NOTHING to do w evolution
its simply a lack of belief in gods
and YOU do know god ??
when did you last meet w him personaly?
1. Religion doesn't have the physical side effect of alcohol, so the ill effects are often overlooked.
2. I suggest that religious worship is a cultural form of ecstatic ritual found in many places both within religion and outside of it. The snake handling Pentecostals are fulfilling the same need as kids at a rave.
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
People believe in gods because it's an instinct preprogrammed into our synapses by our DNA. Jung calls these things archetypes, motifs that occur in all societies in all eras.
The problem with archetypal instincts is that they feel true, and we are more likely to accept them without question than we are to accept uncritically the knowledge we acquire through learning and reasoning, which has a much higher probability of being true.
Some archetypal beliefs are survival traits, such as the instinct to avoid stepping off a cliff or the instinct to flee from a large animal with both eyes in front of its face. Others may have been survival traits in earlier times whose dangers we can't imagine, but serve no purpose now. Still others are random mutations that have no survival advantage but were passed down by accidents of genetic drift.
Religion may have served a positive role in the Neolithic Era. Small tribes of hunter-gatherers needed to overcome their hostility to each other in order to build agricultural villages and live together in harmony and cooperation. Discovering their common religious beliefs might well have encouraged them to make peace.
Today our "tribes" have grown colossally larger in their size and the space they occupy, and we no longer can find any commonality with the religions of our neighbors. Religion has become a negative force, reinforcing our atavistic tribal hatreds and constantly compelling us to slide back into the Stone Age.
People have a valid evolutionary reason for the instinct to believe in gods. This is something we have to take seriously in the arduous campaign to lead our fellow man on the path toward transcendence over religion.
scifes:
Out of interest, how far have you "gone on" with evolutionary theory? To what year level have you studied the theory? What books have you read about it? I'm assuming you're an expert.
It's not that fine a margin. There's a large enough habitable zone around many stars - much wider than a metre - in which planets probably form fairly commonly.
It's no coincidence. Such defects are quickly eliminated from the gene pool by natural selection.
Again, not a coincidence. The Sun and the planet Jupiter "sweep up" a lot of the meteors that might impact Earth. The remaining big ones collide with Earth only once in a while. Small ones are bombarding Earth all the time, but most burn up in the atmosphere.
No coincidence. Life as we know it needs water to survive, so it had to start there.
No. Simulations of solar system formation show that planets around G-type stars in the habitable zone are probably not uncommon.
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In summary, just because you can't think of how something that seems really unlikely to you happened, doesn't mean that nobody can work out how it happened without referring to God.
Out of interest, how far have you "gone on" with evolutionary theory? To what year level have you studied the theory? What books have you read about it? I'm assuming you're an expert.
It's not that fine a margin. There's a large enough habitable zone around many stars - much wider than a metre - in which planets probably form fairly commonly.
It's no coincidence. Such defects are quickly eliminated from the gene pool by natural selection.
Again, not a coincidence. The Sun and the planet Jupiter "sweep up" a lot of the meteors that might impact Earth. The remaining big ones collide with Earth only once in a while. Small ones are bombarding Earth all the time, but most burn up in the atmosphere.
No coincidence. Life as we know it needs water to survive, so it had to start there.
No. Simulations of solar system formation show that planets around G-type stars in the habitable zone are probably not uncommon.
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In summary, just because you can't think of how something that seems really unlikely to you happened, doesn't mean that nobody can work out how it happened without referring to God.
the truth is..not much..only jumped to the illogical bits and understood the general concept and got out...the theory gives no reason for which the most elemental single-cell beings have been destroyed after some time..it simply stated that to tell why our (older models) are not still raving the earth..without giving a scientific explenation to it..(like us saying god is god and no one created him)<<<<i know you'll quote that..but so be it.
thank you veeeeeary much for explaining my point...scientific explanations tell you HOW these coincidences happen..giving scientific details are simply adding to the number of coincidences which had to happen for this universe to get pulled off...which coincidence is harder??earth waltezing dumbly through space avoiding asteroids or earth being given (by no one cause god doesn't exist) two planetary bodygaurds?? you're just complicating the situation..but making my point clearer
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as i said..i can think of simple complicated situations where the odds are too much to consider coincidence(infinity)..if you can add a couple more factors with a hundred or more variables which all also happened to be turned on (true)..then you should believe in god more than i do...
and that's why religious men and men of science are those closer and with stronger belief in god..the first ones know god better..leading him to beleive him better..the latter know god's creations better..also leading them to believe in god more
This poll is biased, there's no 'undecided' option for a start.
As far as conincidences go, if it's a common occurance around G type stars, then it's hardly a conincidence. Besdies which, I always thought that argument was just a little absurd - Imagine that, life evolving in an environment that's conducive to the evolution of that kind of life - tell me, how would you propose to evolve humans in the clouds of jupiter, or oceans of europa, where we're not equipped to survive.
And as far as earth meerily blundering its way along avoiding asteroid impacts?
Pure Hoccum.
I present to you, the 176 impact structures, that we know of, arranged by age:
http://www.unb.ca/passc/ImpactDatabase/Age.html Note the youngest on that list is only 60 years old.
As far as conincidences go, if it's a common occurance around G type stars, then it's hardly a conincidence. Besdies which, I always thought that argument was just a little absurd - Imagine that, life evolving in an environment that's conducive to the evolution of that kind of life - tell me, how would you propose to evolve humans in the clouds of jupiter, or oceans of europa, where we're not equipped to survive.
And as far as earth meerily blundering its way along avoiding asteroid impacts?
Pure Hoccum.
I present to you, the 176 impact structures, that we know of, arranged by age:
http://www.unb.ca/passc/ImpactDatabase/Age.html Note the youngest on that list is only 60 years old.
scifes:
Then there's no reason to take your claims seriously about evolution having more holes in it as you go deeper. You have barely skimmed the surface, so you don't know what lies beneath.
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
They explain why these events are not as rare as you imagine.
Not always. In many cases, the scientific details tell us why certain things were inevitable - for example because of the laws of physics.
In other words, any time anybody gives a scientific explanation for something, your only response is "Well, God made the science do that."
And, you also seem to consider human beings and Earth special in the universe - like the universe was made just for you.
You can? Ok. Tell me a few.
Then there's no reason to take your claims seriously about evolution having more holes in it as you go deeper. You have barely skimmed the surface, so you don't know what lies beneath.
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
They explain why these events are not as rare as you imagine.
Not always. In many cases, the scientific details tell us why certain things were inevitable - for example because of the laws of physics.
In other words, any time anybody gives a scientific explanation for something, your only response is "Well, God made the science do that."
And, you also seem to consider human beings and Earth special in the universe - like the universe was made just for you.
You can? Ok. Tell me a few.
loool there's alwayas something new to learn huh? so what can you be if you don't disbelieve or believe in god..? you haven't made your mind yet??
but people, that's my point..if you put all variables which human life is built on from cosmic ones to subatomic ones in a storng simulating computer program..press the "give random values" button...then press the "simulate" button..what's the possibility that you'll see in front of you a simulation that runs succesfully for what? 100 million years??
if you and your children and grand children keep running the simulation for 40 generations 3 times a day..plus add new variables discovered from different scinces daily..you will not reach that possibility...lool imagine the simulation runs perfectly from the first click(just imagine
) does that mean that the possibility of coincidence you found is true?? no because your knowledge isn't absolute or full yet.. 1- YOU WILL NOT COUNT ALL VARIABLES.
meanining that
It never matters how long the odds are if it already happened.
At the moment it looks like some form of life will develop any where there is a regular source of liquid water.
Complex intelligent life would be more rare, but with 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars (based on current estimates of galaxy and star populations) or so and 16,000,000,000 years to work on it so far, even rare things are pretty likely if they are possible at all. We've even had a monkey named Shakespeare write out the complete works of Shakespeare.
At the moment it looks like some form of life will develop any where there is a regular source of liquid water.
Complex intelligent life would be more rare, but with 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars (based on current estimates of galaxy and star populations) or so and 16,000,000,000 years to work on it so far, even rare things are pretty likely if they are possible at all. We've even had a monkey named Shakespeare write out the complete works of Shakespeare.
With logic like that you shouldn't have to worry about school long.
Are you saying that it's not a choice?
That people don't choose to be Atheists?
That Atheists are somehow preordained by your god to be unbelievers?
You don't think that someone who is leaning towards Atheism for whatever reason, might have a 'relgious experience' or an epiphany of sorts, that pulls them back into theism, or perhaps witness or experience something that pushes them into atheism or agnosticism?
Yeah, it's possible to be undecided.
but people, that's my point..if you put all variables which human life is built on from cosmic ones to subatomic ones in a storng simulating computer program..press the "give random values" button...then press the "simulate" button..what's the possibility that you'll see in front of you a simulation that runs succesfully for what? 100 million years??
if you and your children and grand children keep running the simulation for 40 generations 3 times a day..plus add new variables discovered from different scinces daily..you will not reach that possibility...lool imagine the simulation runs perfectly from the first click(just imagine
1- YOU WILL NOT COUNT ALL VARIABLES.
meanining that
Actually, it's been done, to some extent, and the results suggest that this universe is the most probable one to find ourselves in (no, I don't really expect you to understand).
It essentially boils down to the argument that we won't find ourselves in a universe where we can't exist (kind of a tautology really when you think about it).
DiamondHearts
Registered Senior Member
Anyone curious as to the Quran can access it here, this is an English translation: http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/Surai.htm
A book which 1.7 billion human beings hold in reverence. There must be something in this book which inspires people. Read it for yourself.
A book which 1.7 billion human beings hold in reverence. There must be something in this book which inspires people. Read it for yourself.
it does matter..and besides, it's still happening..i can't see why you're living a very angry life..
and what is the possibility that gluons were created? the possibility quarcks to be created? the possibility of them coming together? the added sub-possibility of creation of protons and nuetrons? the probability that they dicide to suck a huge amount of power and overcome the HUGE repulsive power between them till the linking power takes place? the possibility of electrons come flying by and feel like circuling the happy couple? the possibility of a new niutron joining the club? the possibility of more electrons and protons joining others?( although they're in equilbrium..they have every reason not to be so)? all the possibilities which lead tothe creation of the periodic table? the possibility of H2 and O2 sticking together and forming water? and the convienient possibility of it being in huge supply the possibility of life depending on water the most and not uranium or x-rays which aren't so conviniently available..
all these possibilities..what do you say of them??
if you explain them to me and add some details then that's not an explenation.. it's only complicating the matter and adding factors the the already existing awesome mixture of possibilities..
sorry i meant no offence i just thought it was amusing..i mean it makes more sense to have doubts of god than not to believe him... i'll take a note of that..but like, what do you guys call yourselves??
work your imagination man..of course this is the most probable universe for us to exist in..it's specially designed and custom taylored to our needs..just open your eyes when you walk in the street today and you'll see what i mean..just look around you now..this universe is the crib for human kind..no one else..humans are really the center of the universe..because it's they're the reason god created the universe..to worship him..
looool..and the reason we won't find ourselves in a universe where we can't exist is because we're already dead or are dying to figure it out
...but good thought by the way..
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maybe..
that's my reason for no believing in it..it's the missing piece..
man this is getting tiring...I KNOW THAT!!
THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING.. THAT THE COICIDENCE OF WHOLE "LAWS" COMING TO EXISTANCE HAVE A WAAAAY SMALLER PROBABILITY AND ARE MORE AWE-PROVOKING THAN MERE SINGLE SEPERATED MIRACLES.. don't you agree?? cuz i'm reaching my limit here..it's like i'm trying to define gravity..
THAT'S A 100& CORRECT INFORMATIVE SENTANCE..AT THE BEGINING WE THOUGHT GOD DID THINGS RANDOMLY..BUT TO HELP US LIVE..HE MADE THESE TRENDS WHICH WE DISCOVER BY LOGIC AND OBSERVATION AND THEN WE CALL IT SCIENCE AND INTEGRATE IT INTO OUR LIVES..TODAY'S EXPERIMANT IS TOMMORROW'S COMMON SENSE..LIKE THE GUY PUNCHING YOU AND THE DESSERT..AND WHEN GOD DICIDES TO GO OUT OF OUR SCIENCE WE CALL IT ANOMOLY OR SPECIAL CASE..AND STILL THERE ARE THINGS UNEXPLAINED BY SCIENE AND THERE ALWAYS WILL BE..ONE OF WHICH IS WHY GOD HAS NO GOD..ANOTHER IS OUR SOUL..[/SIZE][/SIZE][/U][/B][/COLOR]
because they're the most complicated...also easy to observe..
:jawdrop:
:geek:
i'll kill you..
:jason:
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