Your time upon this earth is ending...

[(Q)]

I have proof.

God has proven His existence to me, and would to you to, if you wanted Him to.

You are a liar.

 

[Hapsburg]

No choice....you're full of it. Uh, choices, that is. I'll say it AGAIN. Proof of God's existence is provided to you by God Himself, not by another human being. God set it up that way on purpose. All you have to do is sincerely want to know, and He'll show you. Most people don't want to know....it's too consequential...people are afraid. People being afraid of Jesus...not sure if it makes me want to laugh or cry. He's certainly nothing to be afraid of. But shhhh, don't tell Lawdog that...

Wow...my nose is wrinkling already from the smell of all of the bullshit in your post.
Fear implies a god. No god, no fear (hey, that should be my motto ).
If there is no rational proof of a god, then your whole arguement to try to get us to believe you kinda falls flat on it's ass. I suggest you come up with a rational arguement or no one besides your little gang of cultists will believe you.

 

[Lori_7]

Wow...my nose is wrinkling already from the smell of all of the bullshit in your post.
Fear implies a god. No god, no fear (hey, that should be my motto ).
If there is no rational proof of a god, then your whole arguement to try to get us to believe you kinda falls flat on it's ass. I suggest you come up with a rational arguement or no one besides your little gang of cultists will believe you.

It's know God, no fear.

I tell the truth. You don't have to believe me if you don't want to. It's your choice. God has given me proof...personally. I've got mine, go get your own. I don't want you to take my word for it and neither does He.

 

[superluminal]

Lori,

When I started reading the bible for the first time (in the way back, 23+ years) I found so much of what I read to be absolutely discordant to
my entire way of thinking and view of life that without clarification I could never be a christian. I asked. I mean really asked. And nothing happened. I got married, had kids, got good jobs, good friends, did lots of kickass backpacking, scubadiving, fishing, I help people whenever I can (sometimes to my own detriment I'm told...) and except for not currently having a job (my own decision) things are really cool. I love science and learning new things. The bible is just so contradictory to reality and religious belief so anti-intellectual (IMO) that it makes zero sense to me.

But having said that, I know many well adjusted christians who are private about their beliefs (unless asked, as Jesus supposedly suggested) and otherwise ordinary folks. And that's super.

I think by saying "Ask and ye shall receive" with certainty makes a lot of people doubt your rationality. We have asked. And if we're just not ready for it yet? Well, we're going to just tool along as happy atheists.

And that's fine!

 

[Hapsburg]

You just don't get it, Lor. Belief in a religion causes fear. Christians literally use fear to keep thier followers in line (do something we don't like and you'll go to hell!). Ya know, there was another people who did that: The Nazis.

Now, if you cannot even think of a rational arguement for the existince of god (and you can, believe, I've met people that can), then you have lost the debate even before you began to type.

 

[Lori_7]

I have proof.

God has proven His existence to me, and would to you to, if you wanted Him to.

You are a liar.

No I'm not, and no one who knows me would say that I am. You don't know me, you simply want me to be a liar, and so that's what you say. People believe what they want to believe. Some want the truth, and some want lies. You'll get what you want, and it won't be my fault.

 

[Lori_7]

Lori,

When I started reading the bible for the first time (in the way back, 23+ years) I found so much of what I read to be absolutely discordant to
my entire way of thinking and view of life that without clarification I could never be a christian. I asked. I mean really asked. And nothing happened. I got married, had kids, got good jobs, good friends, did lots of kickass backpacking, scubadiving, fishing, I help people whenever I can (sometimes to my own detriment I'm told...) and except for not currently having a job (my own decision) things are really cool. I love science and learning new things. The bible is just so contradictory to reality and religious belief so anti-intellectual (IMO) that it makes zero sense to me.

But having said that, I know many well adjusted christians who are private about their beliefs (unless asked, as Jesus supposedly suggested) and otherwise ordinary folks. And that's super.

I think by saying "Ask and ye shall receive" with certainty makes a lot of people doubt your rationality. We have asked. And if we're just not ready for it yet? Well, we're going to just tool along as happy atheists.

And that's fine!

I would have to agree with you. I can certainly understand your point of view and I think it's a rational one. I wasn't always born again you know. I didn't always know what I know now. My perception has changed quite a bit, and continues to evolve.

And you should also know that it says in the Bible that the Holy Spirit is not only it's author but also it's interpreter. That's the only reason I understand any of it.

 

[Lori_7]

You just don't get it, Lor. Belief in a religion causes fear. Christians literally use fear to keep thier followers in line (do something we don't like and you'll go to hell!). Ya know, there was another people who did that: The Nazis.

Now, if you cannot even think of a rational arguement for the existince of god (and you can, believe, I've met people that can), then you have lost the debate even before you began to type.

Jesus Christ did not do that, and neither do I.

And I'm not debating with you, I'm telling you that I have a personal relationship with God. He interacts with me. He has taken my life as if it were a snow globe, shaken it all up, and plopped it back down. I'm still reeling somewhat from the last time. I've heard Him speak to me. We've had entire conversations. I've had spiritual manifestations in my life that have blown my mind, and I know that I'm still waiting on the motherload. You don't have to believe me if you don't want to.

 

[Hapsburg]

If you're not debating us, then why are you on a debate forum? :bugeye:
Goddamn, even Jadon is smarter than you..

 

[Lori_7]

If you're not debating us, then why are you on a debate forum? :bugeye:
Goddamn, even Jadon is smarter than you..

It's a discussion forum, and it's for sharing opinions, beliefs, and points of view regarding different topics. Odds are you're not going to agree with everyone out here. Everyone is different...that's what makes it fun. That doesn't mean that I have to give a shit whether or not you agree with me though.

 

[Hapsburg]

That doesn't mean that I have to give a shit whether or not you agree with me though.

You obviously do, thought because you and your friends Lawdog and Jadon are trying to force your beliefs down our throats.

 

[Lawdog]

"What sort of Man is this, whom even the winds and the seas obey?"

The day of thy reckoning is at hand. You WILL die the death:
Listen to the mourning song of thy relatives, thy spouse, or child:

Alas, my beloved, where art thou now? Only thy shell remains visible.
To what nether region hath thy ghost been ushered? Whither hast
thou fled and abandoned us?

Look what is writ on thy Tombstone:
"Here lay a proud disciple of Science who valiently refused
to worship the God of his ancestors. His beloved Science saved him
not from the final day, but while he lived he knew a few pleasures."

In the blink of an eye ye shall be swept up into thy Judgement.
Prepare thyselves to meet Him of the Holy of Holies,
The One who Exists, ALPHA and OMEGA
The Immense Glory of inutterable Majesty
He of the Ancientmost Uncreated Power,
Ye shall see thy entire life spread out before thee and ye shall
be intimate with newly found remorse:

HOW IS IT LORD GOD that I DID NOT HEED THY MESSENGERS???!!!!

This Judgement is much more to be dreaded by the unrepentant
than anything known in the universe.

Even the Devils believe...and they tremble!

Now the coldness of eternal death puts out
the last embers of the flame of love in my heart,
the joy of my youth and childhood.
Farewell holy God once beloved,
I could have loved thee but chose not,
I was made for you and thy eternal joys
I chose to betray thy Truth for short pleasures.
Please, consign me to the outer darkness for all time to
dwell in constant horror with the Devil and his Apostate Angels,
for thy mercy I rejected in life, and now in death thy justice I require!!

WILL THESE BE THY WORDS?
Do not think that you will escape the chamber of final truth-saying.
Repent of evil doctrines and learn sacred truths.
Render sorrow of thy sin to thy God and forgive one another.
this very day you can begin to change and come over to Him. Bend thy knee
now in joy, not later in tears...FOR Every knee in Heaven and Earth and beneath the Earth shall bend...

IT IS A THING OF AWE TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD

 

[Quantum Quack]

To me one of the biggest falacies of end times preaching is that it suggests that judgement day is postponed to some time in the future.
To say that you will be judged instead of saying that you are being judged is buck passing to the future.

Judgement day is always happening.....in other words....

To think that judgement day is not Now and always Now is an abrogation of responsibility.

 

[Raithere]

Okay, I finally got some free time and got around to responding.

GOkay, we'll look at this again:Given that EFFECT can precede CAUSE: Ok, I doubt it, but lets assume it does. It is still CAUSE and EFFECT. And Aquinas' argument still maintains. Uncaused Cause is outside of Time as shown below. If anything, quantum mechanics will probably end up supporting theology.

You're letting semantics dictate. Let me see if I can explain this more clearly.

Aquinas' argument is that every event has a cause; therefore there must be a succession of causes, each preceding the other. Logically, this means that the chain of causation would go back indefinitely. Aquinas took the point of earlier philosophers in perceiving a problem with this. Each even takes a certain amount of time. So if the chain of causation extends into the past infinitely an infinite amount of time must pass to get to the present. Since an infinite amount of time cannot pass we cannot get to the present. The solution Aquinas used was first cause; that there must be an interruption in the chain of causality, an uncaused cause.

However, we have found that causality is not a chain on the quantum level. An event occurring now may have its cause in the future or it may be uncaused. This effectively breaks the chain of causality, there need not be an infinite regression of causes, and therefore we do not have to worry about an infinite amount of time passing to get to the present. Existence may begin at random, without cause, or be self causal. The chain is broken and the necessity of a prime cause (even if we accept the argument) is no longer necessary to escape infinite regression.

Aquinas does not assume Time is Infinite. He also is aware that Time, Space, and Matter are merely categories and are interlinked and inseperable.

The objection to infinite regression does assume time is infinite, otherwise there is no infinite regression. Also, it is unlikely that that Aquinas understood that matter space and time are the same as this idea was first proposed by Einstein about 700 years later.

Whatever is outside of SPACE_TIME/MATTER_EXTENSION must not be in space, and therefore can only be one, since two things cannot be at once the same.

Not a bad argument but any conception of what exists "outside" our universe is hypothetical at best. Without MST there is no "being" at all as far as our understanding goes so it becomes pure fantasy to speculate on the properties and rules of being-ness. There are also any number of alternatives to what you propose. Perhaps there are an infinite number of universes with an infinite number of gods each creating more universes.

Here it is assumed that the Prime Mover is being moved by another, or moves himself, a thing which has already been found erroneous by Aquinas in the first proof.

Isn't the very definition of a prime mover that which can cause (act) without being caused? Action requires change, change requires time. Without time there can be no action.

What is more, given that the Prime Mover exists, it is not so much that he is incapable of thought and change as much as he is thought thinking itself, as Aristotle pointed out, and being fully actualized does not need change, for change is the movement from the potential to the actual.

Change is required for thought as well.

Objects in the physical world do have contingent existance, this means that they are unnecessary, and that in relation to the Prime Mover/Uncaused Cause, only that being is truly Necessary Being.

Again, no. Objects are merely forms of energy. Energy never disappears or goes away, it merely changes form. This is basic physics.

You have an object, let's say an apple. You eat the apple but that which makes up the apple doesn't go away. It only changes in form. It is chewed and digested. The bulk of it is expelled as waste. Your body uses some of the chemicals; some of those chemicals are changed to release energy. But every bit of the apple is still in existence. It's simply in different forms. Forms we don't recognize as being an apple. But nothing at all is missing; every bit of the apple still exists.

Permanency does not imply Necessary Being. Being yes changes form, but change and form are both unnecessary realities, but they are both permanently part of the physical reality.

Where have you or Aquinas argued that change and form are unnecessary? This is an unsupported assertion. I would argue that without change or form you have nothing.

The Prime Mover could put into motion an object/being that would never cease to move and would be co-eternal with the Prime Mover.

Another unsupported assertion. The only quality a prime cause must have is the ability to cause without being caused. All else is assumed.

You have misunderstood the reasoning. The reasoning does not say God has necessary existance therefore God must exist, but it says "God has necessary existance (God must exist), the two statements are not sequential reasoning, but merely re-stating for clarification. reread the passage in question. its merely commentary.

I didn't misunderstand anything. God is defined by Aquinas as necessary. This doesn't prove God is necessary (even if we accept the need for a necessary being). I can define a unicorn as a necessary being; this doesn't prove that unicorns are necessary.

I dont know what you mean by "implicit attribute", but to say goodness is a value judgement is relativism. Such relativism is nihilistic in scope and makes all dialogue impossible.

By implicit attribute I mean something that is inherent to the thing you are evaluating, a set quality you can simply measure. Value is relative, regardless of your arguments from consequence. Gold, water, even kindness are not simply "good" of their own accord. They can be "bad" depending on the circumstance.

Again, this is value Relatavism, it would be like saying, "not everyone means precisely the same thing when they use a word, therefore it is useless to talk, for you will never truly fully comprehend the other person"

Your conclusion is unwarranted. We are able to communicate despite the fact that our comprehension of a word's meaning is never exactly the same as anyone else's. The human mind is capable of dealing with vagaries and inexact information.

Thats absurd. A variety of orders exist in reality, for example in the animal kingdom things are valued by the animals in different ways for different reasons, but most if not all of the order is based on survival.

There is not hierarchical "variety of orders". Categorization is a conceptual tool, not reality.

So far all of your criticisms are on the commentary I inserted to introduce the concept, the first paragraph in each section, and Aquinas is in the second paragraph.

I merely quote a sentence or two, often the first ones, to identify the argument I am addressing. My argument, however, is regarding the entire concept.

If yoiu read the second paragraph you will see what he says, things act toward an end. Therefore the argument is based on observation of the physical world. He is saying that things which have no self awareness are still moved toward some purposeful end, such as vegitative life growing as food for the animals.

More unfounded assumptions. This first presumes that the future is set. There is no evidence for this at all. Purpose is likewise presumed. That something is used for a purpose does not mean that was the intent of its existence. I can suffocate a kitten with a teddy bear. That does not mean the teddy bear existed so that I could suffocate kittens. Likewise, that plants are eaten does not prove that they exist to be eaten. This reasoning is backwards.

So you admit that there is order in the Universe? But order cannot be maintained but by some higher Law or Power. You call this the Law of energy and fundamental forces. But what keeps these from losing their power to the entropy of the universe that science prescribes?

Entropy is a natural consequence of the natural laws and forces. They do not have to be supported to keep from losing their power, even if entropy overtakes the entire universe those same laws and forces will still apply. Even if they didn't just inventing a magical being that can empower them isn't a reasonable answer.

Who or What brought these powers into being? did they arise from Nothingness? If so how?

No one is sure yet. But "God" does not answer the question.

~Raithere

 

[Lori_7]

You obviously do, thought because you and your friends Lawdog and Jadon are trying to force your beliefs down our throats.

No I'm not. Stop looking for me to try to convert you...it's not gonna happen. It doesn't work that way, and I know that from personal experience. I'm honestly sharing in a discussion. If you can't handle it, then don't participate. Like I said before....no one is pressuring you to agree with me or believe me....I really don't care. Believe what you want...it's your life, and it's your right.

All I've done is disagree with Lawdog, and I haven't bothered to read most of Jadon's posts. No offense Jadon, just haven't had the time to butt into your conversations.

 

[Yorda]

Also, it is unlikely that that Aquinas understood that matter space and time are the same as this idea was first proposed by Einstein about 700 years later.

lol.. it has been known for thousands of years. even the things scientists will discover in the future, they have also been known for people who lived on earth thousands of years ago. those people were just so few, so much ahead of their time that people didn't understand them or care what they said, and they themselves didn't care either.

 

[Sarkus]

lol.. it has been known for thousands of years. even the things scientists will discover in the future, they have also been known for people who lived on earth thousands of years ago. those people were just so few, so much ahead of their time that people didn't understand them or care what they said, and they themselves didn't care either.

Where's the evidence of this - that people who lived on Earth "thousands of years ago" knew that space, matter and time were interrelated?

 

[Yorda]

Where's the evidence of this

In ancient texts like the vedas

 

[(Q)]

lori

No I'm not (a liar), and no one who knows me would say that I am.

Ok, so that means you have told everyone you know that you have proof of god and that you have shown them the proof and they are also convinced?

People believe what they want to believe. Some want the truth, and some want lies.

As a "believer," you've just described yourself. Non-believers seek answers, that which you cannot or will not provide.

You, on the other hand, do not seek answers, as you believe answers are useless because you have a so-called 'truth.' And since a truth is relative to one observer, it can therefore be a lie to another - Christianity to Islam, for example.

Religion does not provide answers, but only spawns more questions that cannot be answered.

You'll get what you want, and it won't be my fault.

Ah yes, every Christian must eventually spout off and occassional, "Nyah, Nyah, Nyah, you're going to hell and I'm not!" when they get cornered and can't find anything else to say.

How very puerile of you, or should I say, 'Christian?'

It's a discussion forum, and it's for sharing opinions, beliefs, and points of view regarding different topics. Odds are you're not going to agree with everyone out here.

Yes, but this is not a place to bleat your beliefs and eschew the inquiries.

That doesn't mean that I have to give a shit whether or not you agree with me though.

No one said you have to give a shit. However, you are doing little more than preaching and trolling by spouting ridiculous claims and then failing to back them up. Keep it up and you'll be a prime candidate for banning.

 

[Raithere]

lol.. it has been known for thousands of years. even the things scientists will discover in the future, they have also been known for people who lived on earth thousands of years ago. those people were just so few, so much ahead of their time that people didn't understand them or care what they said, and they themselves didn't care either.

The concept of unity has been around for a long time. This is somewhat different than the notion that matter, space, and time are interdependent. It is most certainly different than "knowing" anything. That concepts explored in ancient philosophy may be similar to concepts used in modern science does not mean the understanding was the same.

~Raithere