yes, if you had listened, i would have paused to indicate a new paragraph.
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Wicked thoughts
- Thread starter jpappl
- Start date
yes, if you had listened, i would have paused to indicate a new paragraph.
So are you saying that God is flawed ?, why would he not create us to be true and proper in the first place ?.
Christians believe He did create us Good.
Again, the idea that god created us flawed so we have to fight our instincts and desires to strive for perfection in his eyes is a stretch.
No we where changed from that good state to this faulty state when we accepted the knowledge of Good and Evil.
It is not about striving for perfection it is about agreeing with Perfection as to what is perfect. It is about realizing we are not perfect and discovering that Perfection has found a justifiable way to Redeem us unto perfection. And rejoicing at the news.
If we are only supposed to have sex for pro-creation, then the lower animal forms are more perfect than we are, god got it right with them but not us, or other primates for that matter.
Does that make sense to you ?
Your logic makes sense to me. But your logic is based on wrong foundation beliefs.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
If we are only supposed to have sex for pro-creation, then the lower animal forms are more perfect than we are, god got it right with them but not us, or other primates for that matter.
we're not only supposed to have sex for pro-creation, we're just not supposed to mind that it happens.
God is everything. Get a new line.
So you are a pantheist then and don't believe in a good god. God is not distinct, its just another word for everything.
No problem. God and satan are the same. Good for you.
Christians believe He did create us Good.
Well except for the whole original sin bit...
All Praise The Ancient Of Daze.
So you are a pantheist then and don't believe in a good god. God is not distinct, its just another word for everything.
No problem. God and satan are the same. Good for you.
are you blaming god for something? because if you are, you're right. everything is his fault.
Well except for the whole original sin bit...
All Praise The Ancient Of Daze.
you have a problem with knowing the difference between good and evil? you would prefer to be a puppet?
you have a problem with knowing the difference between good and evil? you would prefer to be a puppet?
Non sequitur. Knowing good and evil has nothing to do with being a puppet.
are you blaming god for something? because if you are, you're right. everything is his fault.
Well that's interesting. If god is just everything, saying god is to blame for everything just resolves down to the tautology everything is everything. Not very useful.
In fact there really isn't any point to using the term god. It doesn't add anything useful over just saying everything.
So I guess you are just socially xtian since you don't seem to hold with their beliefs about gods.
Non sequitur. Knowing good and evil has nothing to do with being a puppet.
well, if you were to follow law because you were simply told to, without understanding why it was beneficial to, then you would be a puppet.
Well that's interesting. If god is just everything, saying god is to blame for everything just resolves down to the tautology everything is everything. Not very useful.
In fact there really isn't any point to using the term god. It doesn't add anything useful over just saying everything.
So I guess you are just socially xtian since you don't seem to hold with their beliefs about gods.
god is in all of us. he created all of us according to his law. he created law, therefore he is to blame for everything. what christian beliefs do i not hold? i am a christian not because i was indoctrinated, but because i know personally, through experience, that jesus christ is the saviour of humanity. but he is not alone. many have and will sacrifice their lives for the birth of the new kingdom.
Ok so if you wouldn't see fit to have sexual thoughts about your sis because its inappropriate then how is having those same thoughts about another inappropriate mate any different?
Because she is my sister. Maybe in another time the norms and laws allowed for this or even encouraged it, but it is not where I come from and what I have learned. Beyond learned behavior I can't imagine it, there is also something called in breeding that we have learned is bad.
“ So you are equating having lustfull thoughts the same as having thoughts about murdering someone, having sex with children or abusing animals. That is way off topic and has nothing to do with sexual desire for another woman or man. ”
Yes it does if that sexual desire and what its based on is hurtful and incorrect. I don't buy into the arbitrary values that people assign to various wrongdoings. First because they are self serving. Second because I don't think we ever see the far reaching cumulative consequence of any particular action in relevance. And third because the bottom line is that in order for a perfect existence to occur and eternal life achieved all wrongdoings must be erradicated. The wages of all sin is death, not just the overtly violent ones.
Well first of all I never said my lustfull thoughts were to hurt or sexually hurt them. My lustfull thougths always are erotic and loving. I invision a wonderfull super sexual experience for both.
More importantly, I completely disagree that these thoughts are related to pedohillia, murder, abuse of animals or people. It's just not the same and the stretch to make it so is a weak argument and amounts to an attempt to apply guilt as the only ammunition for a flawed theory.
I respect your philosophy, but I disagree with the premise that somehow our collective thoughts are being stored in good or evil bins and that in order for the society to reach some enlightened state we need to have only pure thoughts.
My thoughts don't have evil intent.
“ yes because I would be single and could date again. That's all. ”
If you were single you would want to have sex with the wrong people or for the wrong reasons?
No, your twisting my meaning. I would be single and therefore would be able to have sex with someone without disruption of a spouse and family. The point being that I am married and so can not.
Stating that I would have sex with someone for the wrong reasons is you judging me. If you look at my history with my wife, I didn't do that now did I ?
Exactly, but like me, who has worked with women for 20+ years and have been able to behave myself and carry myself as a gentlemen who doesn't treat women as objects in life, still has lustfull thoughts about women I am attracted to. It is not an either or. You are making an assumption that these men you speak of do not have these thoughts, maybe of you. ”
True, but the thoughts are still inappropriate and in no way beneficial.
In your opinion they are inappropriate to me they are not, because they are just thoughts.
They may not be beneficial but they are not harmfull either.
There's nothing wrong with finding someone attractive for a host of good reasons but that doesn't mean those are good reasons to have sex with them. And let me tell you that trying to express yourself to someone who is thinking of nothing except how they're going to get you in bed is a drag. That's not sharing, that's not fostering intimacy, and its often times not honest.
I agree
Adstar,
Well they also think we are all sinners, Why if he created us good do Christians want to make everything that is in our nature bad. Makes no sense.
Well that is what I just said. It's still claiming that we aren't perfect, that our nature is wrong and that to agree with this perfection we need to change what is in our nature. Again, why did god make us like this then ?
Why ?
“ Originally Posted by jpappl
So are you saying that God is flawed ?, why would he not create us to be true and proper in the first place ?. ”
Christians believe He did create us Good.
Well they also think we are all sinners, Why if he created us good do Christians want to make everything that is in our nature bad. Makes no sense.
Again, the idea that god created us flawed so we have to fight our instincts and desires to strive for perfection in his eyes is a stretch. ”
No we where changed from that good state to this faulty state when we accepted the knowledge of Good and Evil.
It is not about striving for perfection it is about agreeing with Perfection as to what is perfect. It is about realizing we are not perfect and discovering that Perfection has found a justifiable way to Redeem us unto perfection. And rejoicing at the news.
Well that is what I just said. It's still claiming that we aren't perfect, that our nature is wrong and that to agree with this perfection we need to change what is in our nature. Again, why did god make us like this then ?
“ If we are only supposed to have sex for pro-creation, then the lower animal forms are more perfect than we are, god got it right with them but not us, or other primates for that matter.
Does that make sense to you ? ”
Your logic makes sense to me. But your logic is based on wrong foundation beliefs.
Why ?
Because she is my sister. Maybe in another time the norms and laws allowed for this or even encouraged it, but it is not where I come from and what I have learned. Beyond learned behavior I can't imagine it, there is also something called in breeding that we have learned is bad.
Well first of all I never said my lustfull thoughts were to hurt or sexually hurt them. My lustfull thougths always are erotic and loving. I invision a wonderfull super sexual experience for both.
More importantly, I completely disagree that these thoughts are related to pedohillia, murder, abuse of animals or people. It's just not the same and the stretch to make it so is a weak argument and amounts to an attempt to apply guilt as the only ammunition for a flawed theory.
I respect your philosophy, but I disagree with the premise that somehow our collective thoughts are being stored in good or evil bins and that in order for the society to reach some enlightened state we need to have only pure thoughts.
My thoughts don't have evil intent.
No, your twisting my meaning. I would be single and therefore would be able to have sex with someone without disruption of a spouse and family. The point being that I am married and so can not.
Stating that I would have sex with someone for the wrong reasons is you judging me. If you look at my history with my wife, I didn't do that now did I ?
In your opinion they are inappropriate to me they are not, because they are just thoughts.
They may not be beneficial but they are not harmfull either.
I agree
jpapple, what i have learned is that you should only desire to have sex with people that you desire to be a family with. not just an arrangement either. a true communion based upon honesty, trust, and intimacy (not just of the physical nature). two people become one, to become parents. this involves a lot more than just a physical attraction, as you well know. this is what i mean by appropriate. and by "loving", due you mean love or just affection?
my intent is not to judge you. if you knew my marriage history that would be very clear. this is simply a discussion of ideals. :m:
well, if you were to follow law because you were simply told to, without understanding why it was beneficial to, then you would be a puppet.
No, you would be trusting or obedient. There is no "you" to a puppet.
jpapple, what i have learned is that you should only desire to have sex with people that you desire to be a family with. not just an arrangement either. a true communion based upon honesty, trust, and intimacy (not just of the physical nature). two people become one, to become parents. this involves a lot more than just a physical attraction, as you well know. this is what i mean by appropriate. and by "loving", due you mean love or just affection?
my intent is not to judge you. if you knew my marriage history that would be very clear. this is simply a discussion of ideals.
We can always strive for the ideal.
The big question I have is why we treat what is natural as a negative in the first place, maybe it was mean't to be embraced and understood as opposed to repressed.
If you believe god created us, maybe god required that we maintain this for our very own survival.
Why are we treating the act of sex as a perversion aside from procreating. If we leave all judgements of why, who and how many partners out of the equation and assume that the intent of the sexual desire is "loving" which could be either Love or Affection or both. Does it matter ?
It's a natural desire, one that ultimately is required for procreation and the survival of the species.
One could ask, we need to eat to survive. But eating steak and lobster is a perversion of eating and is glutinous.
I don't see what the big deal is as long as those engaging in the activity do so of their own free will and wishes and are not harming anyone in the process.
No, you would be trusting or obedient. There is no "you" to a puppet.
you forgot ignorant.
god is in all of us. he created all of us according to his law. he created law, therefore he is to blame for everything. what christian beliefs do i not hold? i am a christian not because i was indoctrinated, but because i know personally, through experience, that jesus christ is the saviour of humanity. but he is not alone. many have and will sacrifice their lives for the birth of the new kingdom.
So you are irrationally a xtian based on irrational experiences. Works for me.
So you are irrationally a xtian based on irrational experiences. Works for me.
there is an abundance of reason and logic behind my experiences.
We can always strive for the ideal.
yes we can and i believe that we can indeed achieve a perfect existence and eternal life. i believe that it will require an "intervention" of sorts, but that all we have to do is really want that.
The big question I have is why we treat what is natural as a negative in the first place, maybe it was mean't to be embraced and understood as opposed to repressed.
If you believe god created us, maybe god required that we maintain this for our very own survival.
Why are we treating the act of sex as a perversion aside from procreating. If we leave all judgements of why, who and how many partners out of the equation and assume that the intent of the sexual desire is "loving" which could be either Love or Affection or both. Does it matter ?
It's a natural desire, one that ultimately is required for procreation and the survival of the species.
this is complicated for me to answer because i believe us to be flawed inherently. and when you say "natural" it could be pertaining to our flesh, which contains this flaw...like a birth defect. lots of things seem natural to our flesh that are really quite unnatural in the grand scheme of things and very detrimental. i don't think though, even given this defect, that it's hard to see the detrimental effects of careless, inappropriate, or lust-based sex. the act of sex itself is in no way a perversion, it's the attempted circumvention of the consequence of it, and an ignorance of it's true importance and it's value that is perverse. as i said before, if you were to do away with birth control (which is extremely unnatural), and if you were to parent (and i mean parent) all of the resulting offspring, that would be wonderful. but there is a lot involved in parenting isn't there? and the relationship between the parents is pretty paramount wouldn't you say? i think that the intent of lust (in it's very definition) is that it is not love based but flesh based, and the intent of the act is generally selfish. love should be based on what is going on inside a person, not outside. often the outside is indicative of what is going on inside, but that is not always the case. there are people that you might lust after for one reason or another that you have to admit would make a very poor relationship partner or parent. i think the perversion comes in when you don't consider all of the aspects of sex, just a few, or perhaps one. it implies an irresponsibility or a lack of true intimacy.
One could ask, we need to eat to survive. But eating steak and lobster is a perversion of eating and is glutinous.
not necessarily. it depends on the circumstance. gluttinous is wasteful and selfish, taking more than you need so that someone else suffers. it's disrespectful.
I don't see what the big deal is as long as those engaging in the activity do so of their own free will and wishes and are not harming anyone in the process.
don't you see that people do things to harm themselves and others all the time for the sake of a good time? it's an irresponsibility.