You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Wicked thoughts
- Thread starter jpappl
- Start date
it's not the "purpose" of procreation, but considering the natural consequence of it that is the issue. i think people should be able to enjoy sex whenever they want with whoever they want, as long as they consider all aspects of it and not selfish ones.
i think the concept of birth control is hideously unnatural, and because i do not wish to bring a child into the world, i abstain from having sex. it's not the act, it's the consequence.
i think the concept of birth control is hideously unnatural, and because i do not wish to bring a child into the world, i abstain from having sex. it's not the act, it's the consequence.
i think people should be able to enjoy sex whenever they want with whoever they want, as long as they consider all aspects of it and not selfish ones.
Would you consider not wanting children from sex a selfish one ?
In other words, two people not ready or prepared to raise children having protected sex.
i think the concept of birth control is hideously unnatural, and because i do not wish to bring a child into the world, i abstain from having sex. it's not the act, it's the consequence.
Do you feel that stopping the fertilization hideous or the feeling of condoms or other non-hormonal control ?
in a perfect world, yes. But its no a perfect world. And in this world, in some circumstances, I see these actions as selfish. To satisfy some lustful desire, yes. To establish true intimacy in a loving and respectful and whole relationship, maybe not. I don't think that the lack of intimacy that I live with is natural either.Would you consider not wanting children from sex a selfish one ?
In other words, two people not ready or prepared to raise children having protected sex.
I think that in this world, because of greed, way to much is required to be ready. And if you're not ready then wouldn't your time and energy be better spent getting ready? And if you're not ready for children you're probably not ready for sex either.
Do you feel that stopping the fertilization hideous or the feeling of condoms or other non-hormonal control ?
Everything. Its just not natural.
Something in another thread spurred an example in my head...for example, if trent reznor was to have sired a child with every skanky groupie he's fucked, over time, and given his reputation I would imagine a very short period of time, his dick would "naturally" go limp at the sight of a skanky groupie, no matter how physically attractive they might be. No woman in their right mind would want to have sex with him if he wasn't a rich and famous musician; he's a raging asshole. And maybe if women would shut their legs and stop bring such slutty little gold digging whores around him, he might be forced to take a good look in the mirror, realize he's an asshole, and change. My celibacy has actually afforded me the opportunity of a changed perspective that has been very beneficial. I see and relate to people (including myself) as whole human beings without the consideration of sex. Its enabled me to focus on other aspects of my self and my life that really needed that focus without the demands and drama of sex. Its allowed me to focus on other people and help other people without the distraction of sex. And its allowed me to foster some very whole and honest relationships uninfluenced by sex. Relationships that I would argue are even more intimate than most sexual ones.
To establish true intimacy in a loving and respectful and whole relationship, maybe not.
I don't think that the lack of intimacy that I live with is natural either.
And if you're not ready for children you're probably not ready for sex either.
I don't find contradiction in the above but what I am hearing from you is that you really feel that sex is and only should be used for procreation. Even though you are saying that and I agree true intimacy, the result or climax of two people who are falling in love should not be considered for selfish purposes you state "maybe". How much more loving and respect do they need to provide as evidence before it's ok.
But here:
it's not the "purpose" of procreation, but considering the natural consequence of it that is the issue. i think people should be able to enjoy sex whenever they want with whoever they want, as long as they consider all aspects of it and not selfish ones.
It's like you saying that procreation has to be the goal to be prepared for children and only when you are prepared for them but have as much sex as you want unprotected. It doesn't work that way as I am sure you realize.
If that is the case we are taking steps backwards in my opinion as a society. As you state and I agree the world is not perfect. People are not perfect.
What the result will be of a society not encouraged to use contraceptives will be more and more unwanted and uncared for children not less, more and more relationships not prepared for children, spite and anger and problems over being essentially forced to raise children they were not prepared for and/or women especially forced to live in unhealthy relationships for the sake of the children because they never got to find out what an A hole he is.
We have been there and that is not moving forward, it's our past. There is no doubt with as many problems as the western world has that we are better off planning our families, reducing the number of children so that we can be sure to take care of them properly.
I see no value in not using contraceptives as a method to build a loving relationship with another and be able to chose when the right time to bring children into the world. The fact is, those two will have sex, it doesn't matter if they are ready or not to have children. The children do not have a voice in the matter.
The fact is that they can use contraceptives effectively to allow the luxury of physical intimacy, build the relationship and better understand who they are together and what their goals are. This is how people can properly prepare to bring children in the world.
Or we can just arrange marriages and force people to have babies against their will.
My celibacy has actually afforded me the opportunity of a changed perspective that has been very beneficial. I see and relate to people (including myself) as whole human beings without the consideration of sex.
Well I can see that being a result, but like you said it is not a normal route that most will or can follow.
It also may manifest other problems. You might be putting out one fire to have another type of fire pop up.
On a side note. What's the deal with Trent Reznor, isn't he a singer or something, did he wrong you ? Know him personally ?
Adstar,
Christians believe He did create us Good.
”
Well they also think we are all sinners, Why if he created us good do Christians want to make everything that is in our nature bad. Makes no sense.
Your jumping backwards and forwards around the answer that i have been giving you. Originally the knowledge of good and evil was not in our nature.
“
Again, the idea that god created us flawed so we have to fight our instincts and desires to strive for perfection in his eyes is a stretch. ”
No we where changed from that good state to this faulty state when we accepted the knowledge of Good and Evil.
It is not about striving for perfection it is about agreeing with Perfection as to what is perfect. It is about realizing we are not perfect and discovering that Perfection has found a justifiable way to Redeem us unto perfection. And rejoicing at the news.
”
Well that is what I just said. It's still claiming that we aren't perfect, that our nature is wrong and that to agree with this perfection we need to change what is in our nature. Again, why did god make us like this then ?
Yes you tell me what you just said but you have not been reading my answers. No where did i say that we needed to change our current condition. I have made it clear that it is imposable to change our current condition. We must disagree with our current condition and do our best to resist and limit the current condition.
“
“ If we are only supposed to have sex for pro-creation, then the lower animal forms are more perfect than we are, god got it right with them but not us, or other primates for that matter.
Does that make sense to you ? ”
Well there is a basic difference between animals and us. God created us to dwell in animal bodies if you like but they do not share our condition of knowing good and evil.
Your logic makes sense to me. But your logic is based on wrong foundation beliefs.
”
Why ?
Because you believe that a foundation belief in Christianity is the belief that we must change our own nature. You also believe that humans are just bigger brained animals.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Humans are animals. You evidently don't know the definition of animal.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
All Come To Reason And Compassion And Cease Praising Fabricated Fallacy
All Come To Reason And Compassion And Cease Praising Fabricated Fallacy
you know, this is really unneccessary and pretty childish. don't you think?
Obviously, I don't think so. Evidently, I think it's necessary.
is disgusting arrogant commanding preaching & pretty childish.All Praise The Ancient Of Days
-=-
It is a command to everyone.
It is a command to everyone.
-=-
Irrelevant.
Irrelevant.
my opinion is as relevant as yours.
You seem to have a compulsion to call fact opinion.
How 1 person takes it is irrelevant. Whether he thinks many will obey his command is irrelevant. That is not opinion.
you seem very arrogant and defensive. that's my opinion.
You seem to make absurd assinine assumptions.
You think I'm arrogant to object to arrogance.
I don't find contradiction in the above but what I am hearing from you is that you really feel that sex is and only should be used for procreation. Even though you are saying that and I agree true intimacy, the result or climax of two people who are falling in love should not be considered for selfish purposes you state "maybe". How much more loving and respect do they need to provide as evidence before it's ok.
none. but i don't interpret lust (which is the topic here) as being based in love and respect. i'm pretty sure the opposite of that is inherent in the term.
But here:
It's like you saying that procreation has to be the goal to be prepared for children and only when you are prepared for them but have as much sex as you want unprotected. It doesn't work that way as I am sure you realize.
If that is the case we are taking steps backwards in my opinion as a society. As you state and I agree the world is not perfect. People are not perfect.
What the result will be of a society not encouraged to use contraceptives will be more and more unwanted and uncared for children not less, more and more relationships not prepared for children, spite and anger and problems over being essentially forced to raise children they were not prepared for and/or women especially forced to live in unhealthy relationships for the sake of the children because they never got to find out what an A hole he is.
We have been there and that is not moving forward, it's our past. There is no doubt with as many problems as the western world has that we are better off planning our families, reducing the number of children so that we can be sure to take care of them properly.
I see no value in not using contraceptives as a method to build a loving relationship with another and be able to chose when the right time to bring children into the world. The fact is, those two will have sex, it doesn't matter if they are ready or not to have children. The children do not have a voice in the matter.
The fact is that they can use contraceptives effectively to allow the luxury of physical intimacy, build the relationship and better understand who they are together and what their goals are. This is how people can properly prepare to bring children in the world.
Or we can just arrange marriages and force people to have babies against their will.
ok, here's the thing...
i have a very strong belief that the world can (and will eventually be) perfect. not alot of people really believe that, or can conceptualize it, but because of some unique experiences that i've had, i can and do. i feel like what i'm trying to achieve with my decisions in this area and in others, is a proof of sorts. to live contrary to societal norms, not only to prove a point, but to take a stand for what i believe in. for a perfect society and eternal life to exist, all of the people participating in it will have to be willing to do the right thing, all of the time. because of our fallen state, this is not only hindered, but impossible at this time to achieve without an intervention that is undoubtably coming soon. but until then, i do think it's important to show that the willingness is there. intentions mean everything in an imperfect world. i know that what i'm doing isn't for everyone. i know that, and that's ok. but i honestly feel responsible because of what's happened to me. it's brought about some very unusual circumstances in my life that i'm just trying to cooperate with and foster as much as possible. what has happened to me is the most important thing to me, and so it's only natural that my behavior would be influenced by it. not everyone has experienced what i have so it's not relevant to them like it is to me. it's not my intention to preach or to suggest that my lifestyle is for anyone other than myself. but to discuss ideals is a different story. much of what i'm doing is a show of my belief in these ideals, even though the ideal is not the current state of existance.
Well I can see that being a result, but like you said it is not a normal route that most will or can follow.
It also may manifest other problems. You might be putting out one fire to have another type of fire pop up.
it's funny...i remember when i was one year celibate. i thought to myself, "my god, you're a freak!!!" lol. and it was hard. there was what i would equate to a withdrawal, and then there is an enormous amount of societal pressure to conform to norms, not to mention the pressure from men around me. but ultimately, and so far, i am very pleased with the results, and i find myself stronger and with a greater sense of peace than i ever thought was possible. loneliness...is the downside.
On a side note. What's the deal with Trent Reznor, isn't he a singer or something, did he wrong you ? Know him personally ?
trent and i worked on a project together, along with a lot of other people. it's still not at completion so i'm not at liberty to discuss any details, but you could say that it is charitable in nature. i never got into nin music prior to this because he and it totally turned me off. i found his behavior completely appalling. but given the nature of the project, i thought i'd give it a chance and give him the benefit of the doubt. it turns out that his intentions in his participation were entirely self-centered, which is a shame. the opportunity to help people is often (for me and many others anyway), a very humbling and fulfilling experience. not because it makes you LOOK good, but because it makes you FEEL good. my interaction with him confirmed what has been, and what continues to be rather obvious. he is completely egomaniacal. he is a liar, a user, a conceited finger pointer, a tantrum throwing spoiled brat, and a complete slut. he lacks a human quality really...like he has no heart. no compassion. he's all business, and the business has to benefit him for him to care about it. it's a shame. you know, i really don't like to dislike people. i'm extremely naive and i enjoy giving people the benefit of the doubt. so it's my fault to be disappointed in someone. it just left a bad taste in my mouth.
Adstar,
First of all what is our current condition that you are referring to that needs to be resisted and limited ?
I would think that a deer being chased by a lion would consider the lion evil. But to the point, if god created us to dwell in animal bodies it appears god also gave us the same instincts, sleeping, eating, drinking and mating. It appears we are no different in the eyes of god. You can not know what the animals are thinking and since there is ample evidence of animals displaying behavior that you might consider unique to humans, like compassion.
No I look at statements like this as evidence that they do:
"God created us to dwell in animal bodies"
Yes I believe that humans are the most advanced animals to evolve on the earth, all the evidence points that we are advanced animals capable of manipulating our environment and also capable of manipulating and perverting who and what we are.
Yes you tell me what you just said but you have not been reading my answers. No where did i say that we needed to change our current condition. I have made it clear that it is imposable to change our current condition. We must disagree with our current condition and do our best to resist and limit the current condition.
First of all what is our current condition that you are referring to that needs to be resisted and limited ?
Well there is a basic difference between animals and us. God created us to dwell in animal bodies if you like but they do not share our condition of knowing good and evil.
I would think that a deer being chased by a lion would consider the lion evil. But to the point, if god created us to dwell in animal bodies it appears god also gave us the same instincts, sleeping, eating, drinking and mating. It appears we are no different in the eyes of god. You can not know what the animals are thinking and since there is ample evidence of animals displaying behavior that you might consider unique to humans, like compassion.
Because you believe that a foundation belief in Christianity is the belief that we must change our own nature. You also believe that humans are just bigger brained animals.
No I look at statements like this as evidence that they do:
"God created us to dwell in animal bodies"
Yes I believe that humans are the most advanced animals to evolve on the earth, all the evidence points that we are advanced animals capable of manipulating our environment and also capable of manipulating and perverting who and what we are.
for a perfect society and eternal life to exist, all of the people participating in it will have to be willing to do the right thing, all of the time. because of our fallen state,
What do mean by our fallen state ?
because of our fallen state, this is not only hindered, but impossible at this time to achieve without an intervention that is undoubtably coming soon
What do you mean by intervention that is coming soon ?
it's not my intention to preach or to suggest that my lifestyle is for anyone other than myself. but to discuss ideals is a different story. much of what i'm doing is a show of my belief in these ideals, even though the ideal is not the current state of existance.
Understood
it's funny...i remember when i was one year celibate. i thought to myself, "my god, you're a freak!!!" lol. and it was hard. there was what i would equate to a withdrawal, and then there is an enormous amount of societal pressure to conform to norms, not to mention the pressure from men around me. but ultimately, and so far, i am very pleased with the results, and i find myself stronger and with a greater sense of peace than i ever thought was possible. loneliness...is the downside.
I can imagine, but as long as it makes you feel good and you are happy then more power to you. Your not hurting anyone.
he is completely egomaniacal. he is a liar, a user, a conceited finger pointer, a tantrum throwing spoiled brat, and a complete slut. he lacks a human quality really...like he has no heart. no compassion. he's all business, and the business has to benefit him for him to care about it. it's a shame. you know, i really don't like to dislike people. i'm extremely naive and i enjoy giving people the benefit of the doubt. so it's my fault to be disappointed in someone.
Sounds like an ass.
That is why I don't want to know or find out details of my favorite musicians and actors. It will normally ruin the way you view them and keep you from enjoying their on stage talents.
Many of them are A holes.
When you are put on a pedastel and treating like a god and everyone caters to your every whim you start to think you really are special and above the rest of us. God like.
Cats and dogs.