Wicked thoughts

[Lori_7]

What do mean by our fallen state ?

genetic defect...birth defect inherent in our flesh. the bible calls it sin. whatever you want to call it, i think it hinders the communion that we have with god...separates us from him, and it's what allows us the knowledge of good and evil.

What do you mean by intervention that is coming soon ?

apocalypse, redemption, and rebirth into the kingdom of christ. i don't know how, but somehow through the blood, we will be changed...perfected.

 

[jpappl]

“ Originally Posted by jpappl
What do mean by our fallen state ? ”

genetic defect...birth defect inherent in our flesh. the bible calls it sin. whatever you want to call it, i think it hinders the communion that we have with god...separates us from him, and it's what allows us the knowledge of good and evil.

So did god fail by making us defective or did god do it on purpose.

If on purpose, Why ?

“ What do you mean by intervention that is coming soon ? ”

apocalypse, redemption, and rebirth into the kingdom of christ. i don't know how, but somehow through the blood, we will be changed...perfected.

Do you think it's going to happen in your lifetime ?

 

[Lori_7]

So did god fail by making us defective or did god do it on purpose.

If on purpose, Why ?

well, i don't think he made us that way initially, but i do think that the plan is for us to know good and evil. i think that choice is a huge thing. free will. i think that we chose to know, which is good. i want to know. i don't want to follow some law because i'm told to without understanding it like some puppet. i want to make choices and decisions about how i live my life based on knowledge gained from experience.

Do you think it's going to happen in your lifetime ?

yeah. it's why i don't want to have kids.

 

[jpappl]

“ Originally Posted by jpappl
So did god fail by making us defective or did god do it on purpose.

If on purpose, Why ? ”

well, i don't think he made us that way initially, but i do think that the plan is for us to know good and evil. i think that choice is a huge thing

Well to me this creates a hugely complicated if not impossible choice. What is good and evil ?

For example, there are those who claim the taking of a life is evil, that we should not be the one to make that choice.

Would you let someone die (choice made to let them die) if it mean't that you could save others or another.

It is in my mind certainly not evil, but we are making a concious choice to chose one over another. Would you save you own child at the sacrifice of another ?

Are the necessary evils ? Some would say so.

“ Do you think it's going to happen in your lifetime ? ”

yeah. it's why i don't want to have kids.

Are you talking about mankind destroying itself with war or god coming down and picking and choosing who he is going to take and destroy ?

 

[Lori_7]

Well to me this creates a hugely complicated if not impossible choice. What is good and evil ?

For example, there are those who claim the taking of a life is evil, that we should not be the one to make that choice.

Would you let someone die (choice made to let them die) if it mean't that you could save others or another.

It is in my mind certainly not evil, but we are making a concious choice to chose one over another. Would you save you own child at the sacrifice of another ?

Are the necessary evils ? Some would say so.

To me it seems like the answer lies in your intentions. In an imperfect world with so many awful circumstances its impossible to draw the line with rules. But you can draw that line within yourself. I don't wish anyone to die or to suffer. If you act out of love you are doing what is right. Its not always easy to examine your own intentions. Think about love and its correlation to disciplining a child or protecting the innocent. It would be nice if we didn't have to do those things wouldn't it?

Are you talking about mankind destroying itself with war or god coming down and picking and choosing who he is going to take and destroy ?

I'm talking about mankind destroying itself by a variety of means which can be clearly seen and envisioned.

 

[Lori_7]

Evil seeks to destroy itself. Which I'm pretty sure is the only good thing about it.

 

[Enmos]

Evil seeks to destroy itself.

How so ?

 

[Lori_7]

How so ?

The consequences of it is death.

 

[Enmos]

The consequences of it is death.

Why ?
And even if so, that doesn't mean that it seeks it. It may just be a consequence that is not sought after.

 

[Lori_7]

Why ?
And even if so, that doesn't mean that it seeks it. It may just be a consequence that is not sought after.

What is hate's intention? To harm, kill or destroy? To shun, to rid, to isolate? Think about what people who hate themselves do. Self destruction. And that hate allows them to abuse others as well.

 

[jpappl]

To me it seems like the answer lies in your intentions. In an imperfect world with so many awful circumstances its impossible to draw the line with rules. But you can draw that line within yourself. I don't wish anyone to die or to suffer. If you act out of love you are doing what is right. Its not always easy to examine your own intentions. Think about love and its correlation to disciplining a child or protecting the innocent. It would be nice if we didn't have to do those things wouldn't it?

If there are no rules to it then it is ultimately impossible to reach this perfection that you speak of, therefore there is no point.

We can never be always good even with good intentions because there are opposite reactions to acts.

Example, I save my child and let another die that I can not save. It was not my intention to let the other die but I could not help both.

The parent of the child let go will never accept this as a good intent.

So the answer is to save both and sacrifice myself, my intentions are good, but I leave my child fatherless, the resulting reaction is negative and bad.

We operate on instincts, that are pure and natural and right. They are the only right. I would save my child.

Are you talking about mankind destroying itself with war or god coming down and picking and choosing who he is going to take and destroy ? ”

I'm talking about mankind destroying itself by a variety of means which can be clearly seen and envisioned.

Then god need not interfere.

There is no need for god for this.

If we are talking about a variety of ways to destroy ourselves then it has nothing to do with any religious text or soothsaying.

We have just become smart enough to be dangerous to ourselves.

I have grown tired of those who want to bring armeggedon on the world to fit their beliefs. There are many who are selfish and weak enough to want to take all of us with them to prove they were right about being wrong.

As if their all powerfull, omnipotent god needed any help.

My innocent children would like to thank all of those god fearing creatures who wish such ills on them.

 

[Lori_7]

I don't wish ills on anyone. I wish for a world with no suffering. And this one is not it.

 

[jpappl]

I don't wish ills on anyone. I wish for a world with no suffering. And this one is not it.

And it never will be without suffering i'm afraid.

Even if we solve all the suffering in the world for humans, are we eating animals. What about their suffering. Do we all become vegetarians, some would then say the plants have feelings, they must, they are living, and so on.

I think it's best to do everything we can as individuals to help the less fortunate but we still need to live our lives. There comes a point where the sacrifice devoted turns one into the less fortunate and i'm not talking about just money.

 

[Enmos]

What is hate's intention? To harm, kill or destroy? To shun, to rid, to isolate? Think about what people who hate themselves do. Self destruction. And that hate allows them to abuse others as well.

So people that hate themselves are evil then (I'm assuming you mean depressed people) ?
And I'm pretty sure that people that 'hate themselves' have always been around. So if those people are evil and evil seeks to destroy itself, why are there still depressed people around ?
By the way, a person seeking to destroy itself is not the same thing as evil seeking to destroy itself.
Your statements also imply something more worrisome. You said that evil seeking to destroy itself is the only good thing about evil. Does that mean that you applaud it when someone kills him/herself, thinking that there's now one less evil person in the world ?

 

[Lori_7]

If there are no rules to it then it is ultimately impossible to reach this perfection that you speak of, therefore there is no point.

We can never be always good even with good intentions because there are opposite reactions to acts.

Example, I save my child and let another die that I can not save. It was not my intention to let the other die but I could not help both.

The parent of the child let go will never accept this as a good intent.

So the answer is to save both and sacrifice myself, my intentions are good, but I leave my child fatherless, the resulting reaction is negative and bad.

We operate on instincts, that are pure and natural and right. They are the only right. I would save my child.

there will be no death. there will be no negative circumstances that would force you into a situation like this. we won't need "rules" to keep everyone in line. there is law that governs the universe and we will inherently be in line with it, in our intentions and in our actions, because of our knowledge of the law, and our communion with god. we will not be the same as we are here.

Then god need not interfere.

interfere with what? we are destroying ourselves according to the consequence of his law. the transgressions will have accumulated and the effects of which are destruction. that's not interference, it's just his law.

If we are talking about a variety of ways to destroy ourselves then it has nothing to do with any religious text or soothsaying.

the religious texts and many prophecies that speak of our demise do not cause the demise, they simply foretell of it, and explain why it's happened.

We have just become smart enough to be dangerous to ourselves.

you think that being a danger to yourself is smart?

I have grown tired of those who want to bring armeggedon on the world to fit their beliefs. There are many who are selfish and weak enough to want to take all of us with them to prove they were right about being wrong.

As if their all powerfull, omnipotent god needed any help.

My innocent children would like to thank all of those god fearing creatures who wish such ills on them.

i don't want to bring armeggedon to the world to fit my beliefs. i can see that this is happening regardless of what i believe. but if armeggedon is what it takes to bring about a world in which it's inhabitants no longer suffer, then i'm all for it.

 

[Lori_7]

And it never will be without suffering i'm afraid.

Even if we solve all the suffering in the world for humans, are we eating animals. What about their suffering. Do we all become vegetarians, some would then say the plants have feelings, they must, they are living, and so on.

I think it's best to do everything we can as individuals to help the less fortunate but we still need to live our lives. There comes a point where the sacrifice devoted turns one into the less fortunate and i'm not talking about just money.

no less fortunate. f that. there should be, and will be, no less fortunate. that's the whole point. what we will eat? i don't know. maybe the spirit will sustain us. if our bodies never degenerate, it's safe to say that we will be living under conditions and requirements for sustanance that are unknown in this time. we will be changed. we will be immortal.

i told you that no one wants to believe in the possibility of a perfect world. and for it to be achieved, someone has to believe. that's how things come into being. no thing is ever pursued if the belief of the possibility of that thing is not present. well, i believe. and i take it seriously like a job. and i will accomplish it, along with others, and whatever it takes to bring it into existence.

 

[Lori_7]

So people that hate themselves are evil then (I'm assuming you mean depressed people) ?
And I'm pretty sure that people that 'hate themselves' have always been around. So if those people are evil and evil seeks to destroy itself, why are there still depressed people around ?
By the way, a person seeking to destroy itself is not the same thing as evil seeking to destroy itself.
Your statements also imply something more worrisome. You said that evil seeking to destroy itself is the only good thing about evil. Does that mean that you applaud it when someone kills him/herself, thinking that there's now one less evil person in the world ?

no, i would like the world to be rid of evil. hate and fear are the product of evil. the consequences of hate and fear are evident in the world around us. they are suffering, sickness, destruction, and death. this is really quite obvious.

 

[Enmos]

no, i would like the world to be rid of evil. hate and fear are the product of evil. the consequences of hate and fear are evident in the world around us. they are suffering, sickness, destruction, and death. this is really quite obvious.

That's not an answer to my post..

 

[jpappl]

Lori,

i don't want to bring armeggedon to the world to fit my beliefs. i can see that this is happening regardless of what i believe. but if armeggedon is what it takes to bring about a world in which it's inhabitants no longer suffer, then i'm all for it.

Don't you see what your saying ?

i told you that no one wants to believe in the possibility of a perfect world. and for it to be achieved, someone has to believe. that's how things come into being. no thing is ever pursued if the belief of the possibility of that thing is not present. well, i believe. and i take it seriously like a job. and i will accomplish it, along with others, and whatever it takes to bring it into existence.

Bold is mine, what does that mean, "whatever it takes" ?

It sounds Lori that you are being a hypocrite. You keep claiming that it is our intentions that are what is important.

Yet, you want to see the end of the world to cleanse us of our sins. Your thoughts and intentions mean the end of the world for all of us who are trying to end the suffering you speak of and do not wish it on others.

Fortunately it is all for not because you are wrong just as many before you have been.

Our lives are just a blip in time, don't assume that your time is any more or less valuable then any others have been. It's not.

You are not more special or less special then me or anyone else.

The religious text speak nothing of us taking ourselves out, they speak of god coming back and separating the believers and non-believers. So you are just looking at all of the negative stuff in the world and cowering. Essentially giving up but claiming you are doing the righteuos.

It's a shame, there are so many wonderful people in the world and so much to do and explore and see and experience, call it's gods playground created for you if you like, get out and enjoy it.

The world will and has suffered great catastrophes and yet we are still here.

We will be here when you and I are gone, if you want to maintain your self induced nightmarish vision of the world then be prepared for a lot of disappointment as the years pass.

Because it's not going to happen. You will wake up one day and find you wasted your life away for nothing.

I'm sorry but I don't appreciate the ramblngs of end of the world soothsayers.

 

[Lori_7]

Lori,



Don't you see what your saying ?

yes, i do.

Bold is mine, what does that mean, "whatever it takes" ?

just what it says...whatever it takes.

It sounds Lori that you are being a hypocrite. You keep claiming that it is our intentions that are what is important.

Yet, you want to see the end of the world to cleanse us of our sins. Your thoughts and intentions mean the end of the world for all of us who are trying to end the suffering you speak of and do not wish it on others.

it would be the end of one age and the beginning of another. the end of suffering? those are good intentions in my book. those who have been trying to end suffering have failed miserably for millenia because it is impossible given the state of our flesh. it is inherent. what should we do? build another church? light another candle? sing another song? elect the "right" politician this time. come on...

Fortunately it is all for not because you are wrong just as many before you have been.

there is really no need for contention here, as we both will find out eventually.

Our lives are just a blip in time, don't assume that your time is any more or less valuable then any others have been. It's not.

i don't assume that. it's just different. or really, it's rather the same. that's the thing...the suffering has been going on for as long as we know our history here on earth. but now, in this time, the impact of evil and the potential for destruction, are quite escalated.

You are not more special or less special then me or anyone else.

i know that. why would you say that?

The religious text speak nothing of us taking ourselves out, they speak of god coming back and separating the believers and non-believers. So you are just looking at all of the negative stuff in the world and cowering. Essentially giving up but claiming you are doing the righteuos.

i'm not giving up. i have to live in this world every day and i do. i'm doing the best i can. you know, god doesn't work by magic. we separate ourselves. we make choices. i'm not cowering. i am not afraid of anything.

It's a shame, there are so many wonderful people in the world and so much to do and explore and see and experience, call it's gods playground created for you if you like, get out and enjoy it.

i do. i have a very fulfilling life. i'm not sure where this impression of me is coming from. just because i see the bad in the world doesn't mean i don't see the good. just because i think we'll see the end in this lifetime doesn't mean i'm cowering in some corner crying and wailing. i have a great life. i'm very blessed.

The world will and has suffered great catastrophes and yet we are still here.

and we will remain. we'll just be different.

We will be here when you and I are gone, if you want to maintain your self induced nightmarish vision of the world then be prepared for a lot of disappointment as the years pass.

it's not self-induced, and i really shouldn't have to argue this point unless you live in a cave and are isolated from world events.

Because it's not going to happen. You will wake up one day and find you wasted your life away for nothing.

i'm not wasting my life. where in the world is this coming from????? i'm a very productive person. i don't understand.

I'm sorry but I don't appreciate the ramblngs of end of the world soothsayers.

ramblings. this is my opinion, and it's quite disrespectful of you to purposely carry on a lengthy discussion with me, and just because you don't like or agree with my point of view to use the word ramblings to describe my communication. that was very rude.