Wicked thoughts

[jpappl]

Adultery is a serious crime in Islamic Law [along with Torah and Bible]. "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death" (Lev. 20:10).

Whoa, what happened to the lashes part.

As for those who engage in the crime without marriage, known as fornication, the punishment is lashes and exile for a year. They may, however, get married after their punishment and after they have repented for their crimes and desist from it.

So let me get this straight you can't have sex before marriage because it against the religiuos law.

I don't understand the question. Contraception is permissible, but in certain instances it is discouraged. It is up to the couple.

Well it sounds as if it's not. You can't have sex before your married, your not supposed to have sex when your married unless it's for pro-creation.

I should clarify, when he is engaging in an criminal act, no one is Muslim. If they repent later for their crimes, then God can choose to forgive them or not based on if they are sincere and if they desist form the act.

Then only when they are good and decent are they considered to be Muslim.

 

[DiamondHearts]

Believing in God will not make you perfect as a human being. Being a Muslim is about believing in God, if Muslims did not commit crimes then you would not need laws to define what is right or wrong for them.

Belief AND righteous actions are both necessary. Adultery is one of the deadly sins which all prophets have warned their people to stay away from.


“And come not near to the zina (unlawful sexual intercourse). Verily, it is a Fâhishah [i.e. anything that transgresses its limits (a great sin)], & an evil way (that leads one to Hell).” [Quran 17:32]

In the end, judgment is with God. Best not to involve ourselves in such things as it violates to covenant of man to His creator.

Most importantly no man can judge who is Muslim and who is not.

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him): “A person who commits adultery does not commit it in the state of Iman (belief). A person who drinks alcohol does not drink it in the state of Iman.” Reported in Bukhari.

The exact moment a crime is being committed, the Muslim is not a believer. Therefore, being perpetually involved in sin makes one lose faith and may eventually lead him to disbelief. It's best to stop it before it buds.

May Allah swt protect us from sins, grant us forgiveness, and lead us into the path of the righteous. Ameen.

 

[S.A.M.]

You know my opinion of the Hadiths.

Regardless, I go by the dictum that its no ones job to decide whether belief in God is less relevant than adultery and automatically makes an adulterer who believes in God a non-Muslim.

 

[DiamondHearts]

Whoa, what happened to the lashes part.

That's a quote from the Bible. There are two different classifications, lashes for fornication (unmarried criminal), execution for adultery (married criminal).

This is the punishment according if there are enough witnesses (four), or if a confession takes place. The punishment is a deterrent from the crime and leads to forgiveness for the believer and admission to Paradise if he accepts this law as just and asks God for forgiveness.

Naturally, this concept is quite foreign to the West, yet both Judaism and Christianity are quite clear on the matter. They don't make the distinction Islam does for unmarried men.

So let me get this straight you can't have sex before marriage because it against the religiuos law.

This is all the proof required of a believer. If we discuss the negative effects of adultery or fornication, then we can indeed write a book on this topic. It leads to eventual disintegration of society, family values, divorce, and many negative repercussions for children.

Then only when they are good and decent are they considered to be Muslim.

That is the definition of a Muslim. A Muslim should mirror the Quran, while avoiding sin and pursuing good in the land.

 

[S.A.M.]

execution for adultery (married criminal).

This is Judaic law. It is not present in the Quran, but was adopted by some legal scholars.

That is the definition of a Muslim. A Muslim should mirror the Quran, while avoiding sin and pursuing good in the land.

Then there are no Muslims.

 

[jpappl]

“ Originally Posted by jpappl
Whoa, what happened to the lashes part. ”

That's a quote from the Bible. There are two different classifications, lashes for fornication (unmarried criminal), execution for adultery (married criminal).

So it pays to stay single.

So let me get this straight you can't have sex before marriage because it against the religiuos law. ”

This is all the proof required of a believer. If we discuss the negative effects of adultery or fornication, then we can indeed write a book on this topic. It leads to eventual disintegration of society, family values, divorce, and many negative repercussions for children.

Yes, adultery, but what about two people fornicating. What is wrong with that ? What is wrong with lust ? Desire ?

 

[S.A.M.]

What is wrong with lust ? Desire ?

Its not so much lust that is wrong per se. Its treating yourself as a piece of meat or someone else as a vehicle of your lust. It loosens inhibitions and leads to lack of discipline in other parts of your life.

 

[DiamondHearts]

This is Judaic law. It is not present in the Quran, but was adopted by some legal scholars.

It's present in the Hadith, which is accepted by the majority of Muslims in the world.

Then there are no Muslims.

Why are you creating confusion in an area where is there is no need for it?

The Quran is an ideal for Muslims to follow, therefore a Muslim must enjoin goof and forbid evil in all he does. He may fall into error, and this is when for the moment he is committing a crime he is not Muslim, but he can return to God's favor by repenting for his crime and desisting from it. A Muslim lives in the hope of God's mercy for his good deeds and repentance to be accepted, and in fear of God's punishment for the sins he has committed.

Allah swt guide us to His way.

 

[S.A.M.]

If he is not a Muslim when he commits a crime, why does he need to repent? Why would a non-Muslim repent for not following Islamic law?

 

[DiamondHearts]

If he is not a Muslim when he commits a crime, why does he need to repent? Why would a non-Muslim repent for not following Islamic law?

Because it is a momentarily lapse of faith. The nature of the human being to enjoin good and avoid evil, therefore that person who engages in an evil act is going against the very human nature and the religion of God. There are a few crimes mentioned in specific regarding this: adultery, drinking of alcohol, etc. All of which are forbidden in the Quran. These are the serious sins.

 

[S.A.M.]

/facepalm

 

[jpappl]

Because it is a momentarily lapse of faith. The nature of the human being to enjoin good and avoid evil, therefore that person who engages in an evil act is going against the very human nature and the religion of God. There are a few crimes mentioned in specific regarding this: adultery, drinking of alcohol, etc. All of which are forbidden in the Quran. These are the serious sins.

Would you agree then that someone who claims to be a christian but commits a crime is not a christian while he was committing the crime ?

Moment of weakness ?

Seems either the religion doesn't want any bad publicity or it's just plain lying to itself.

 

[S.A.M.]

I think you'll find its not written anywhere that a Muslim who commits a crime is not a Muslim. Thats probably how some people cope with the idea that Muslims too are [gasp!] capable of committing crimes.

 

[jpappl]

I think you'll find its not written anywhere that a Muslim who commits a crime is not a Muslim. Thats probably how some people cope with the idea that Muslims too are [gasp!] capable of committing crimes.

Yes it sounds more like the tax code for the rich. All sorts of loopholes are available.

People are human, which is what the thread is ultimately about. We make mistakes, but I wonder how much of it is created by our desire to try and control our lust and desires.

I am not saying we should be like rabbits.

I am saying that society whether it is inundated with images of lust and desire or those images are forbidden the same problems exist and arise because we have animalistic needs. They aren't going away, if they did we would fail as a species. So why not imbrace that fact, that it is necessary and good. Something to be appreciated.

 

[DiamondHearts]

Would you agree then that someone who claims to be a christian but commits a crime is not a christian while he was committing the crime ?

Moment of weakness ?

I don't know if the Bible says anything about this matter. What I quoted is from Sahih Bukhari, in particular in relation to major sins such as Adultery.

Nurturing uncontrolled animal desires will result in the absolute destruction of society and human morality. Therefore, it should be nurtured to constructive and legal methods, i.e. marriage, loving one's spouse, caring for children and parents, etc.

 

[jpappl]

Nurturing uncontrolled animal desires will result in the absolute destruction of society and human morality. Therefore, it should be nurtured to constructive and legal methods, i.e. marriage, loving one's spouse, caring for children and parents, etc.

Well then how did we manage to make it this far. It seems to have served us well as a species, lust and desire.

I agree that parents should care for their children and once you have committed to a relationship that it is detrimental to "cheat" unless it is mutally agreed upon, even then not so sure.

But in general, as a society I don't think for a minute that it would be the destruction of society nor human morality. It seems to be going on with or without any external pressures and it also seems those external pressures are just for show.

 

[visceral_instinct]

There is nothing wrong with this, as long as it is preserved in the institution of marriage. In Islamic cultures, it is impossible for those women and men who are known to by unchaste to get married. In fact, the Quran forbids it. By and large, the institution of marriage is maintained in most cultures, and only recently, esp. in the West, has it been challenged.

What if you don't actually plan on getting married?

Sex and emotional bonding are important to me; marriage isn't. Should I go through life celibate because I'm not looking for an official institution, just a relationship?

 

[takandjive]

What if you don't actually plan on getting married?

Sex and emotional bonding are important to me; marriage isn't. Should I go through life celibate because I'm not looking for an official institution, just a relationship?

My vote's no. If you can get married to your life partner, DO. Legal and medical rights are a big deal. Imagine seeing your loved one severely brain-damaged and suffering and you're not legally entitled to pull the plug to end it, and his asshole family is keeping him alive.

 

[DiamondHearts]

What if you don't actually plan on getting married?

The Prophet Muhammad said: "Marriage is half of faith"

Therefore it is the duty of every able Muslim to get married eventually.

Sex and emotional bonding are important to me; marriage isn't. Should I go through life celibate because I'm not looking for an official institution, just a relationship?

I view this as devotion to your spouse before you are even acquainted with each other. Honor and loyalty is a great part of Islamic ethos. If we have children, would we not want them to believe that we have been chaste to our spouse, and want them to emulate our example? This realization, contrary to chastity, would have disasterous effects for any child. Basically, I believe that marriage is for the raising children, therefore one must live as an example, that one day others will look up to you. You can keep your head high and with pride.

Naturally I don't expect much people to support my views, but this is what i believe strongly.

 

[jpappl]

The Prophet Muhammad said: "Marriage is half of faith"

Therefore it is the duty of every able Muslim to get married eventually.

So if your a Muslim and not married, your really only half Muslim ?

I believe that marriage is for the raising children, therefore one must live as an example, that one day others will look up to you. You can keep your head high and with pride.

Naturally I don't expect much people to support my views, but this is what i believe strongly.

I certainly respect your opinions. I also don't disagree that if your married and have children that you should do the best for them and that means trying to have a healthy relationship with your spouse.

But marriage is a created institution, without lust and desire and all that goes with it, we would not be here right now. People were fornicating and living together etc long before marriage. So I think it is backwards, we are trying to create laws that control what is natural instead of accepting what is natural as a good thing, a need if you will.

Knowing this is why they created so many loopholes, otherwise they would have nobody left but the really boring people.