Why doesn't God just show himself?
- Thread starter moementum7
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Thats an interesting one. True believers wouldnt see it as a contest between believers and non believers. A contest of who's right and wrong??? True believers should show God's love by example and by their deeds you will come to know God.
I guess being 'open to love' isnt that bad is it? No matter what you 'believe' in.
I dont have a problem with anybodys belief, i dont believe in god, it doesnt mean i will kick someone when they are down or be a bad person, its not about right and wrong thats why statements about 'going on living a lie' etc are irritating and to me suggests arrogance on the part of the person making the statement, you can believe its the truth, that doesnt make it the truth, thats all im getting at really.
Adstar said:
May God forgive you your religious pride. You are so vain and so cruel in your religious pride.
I don't think that you are in deception. You are the one who thinks that there are only two ways: the right one, and the wrong one; and that one is either in deception, or not.
You are the way you are. If you should ever feel that what you think or do is not right, then you'll seek help. And then, and only then, if you come to me, will I try to do my best to help you. But only if you specifically come for advice.
I do not force my belief on you. I do not go around telling people that what I think is right.
Yet you wish to rape us with your black and white thinking.
Oh yes, and there is either love or hate, for you. You Christians have a strange idea of love. "If a man on the street doesn't shoot me -- that means he loves me!!"
You don't love me. You wish me to be someone else. You treat me as if I were your problem.
What you do is ill, it is malignant.
Lemming3k said:
I think these sort of threads will always contain strong words. I am sure if everyone met up and were face to face, everyone would realise that they all have a common interest... 'heated debate'. I guess heated debate must be a strong human yearning. I think its fun! I guess you just have to be responsible all the time, making sure you never actually get personal. I reckon thats pretty hard too! But ya know ... its all good really!
Peace
20c
After everything I said, you still think I'm trying to hurt you or trying to change you? You invoke God to forgive me for trying to get you to admit that He exists and loves you. That is what was strange to me. You never made your position clear, you know.RosaMagika said:
Jenyar,
What *you* think about God is not necessarily the same thing *I* think about God.
I never made my position clear, because I feel there is nothing to *say* about God: I do not know him, at least I do not consciously think I know him, so I cannot make any claims about his characteristics.
You are judging everyone else's way of thinking by your own way of thinking, insisting that what you think is right.
You think that what you believe goes for everyone else too.
You don't seem to have the abilty to really let others be the way they are.
Where is your humility?!
What *you* think about God is not necessarily the same thing *I* think about God.
I never made my position clear, because I feel there is nothing to *say* about God: I do not know him, at least I do not consciously think I know him, so I cannot make any claims about his characteristics.
You are judging everyone else's way of thinking by your own way of thinking, insisting that what you think is right.
You think that what you believe goes for everyone else too.
You don't seem to have the abilty to really let others be the way they are.
Where is your humility?!
I don't think it's humility not to have an opinion, and I certainly don't think the God that created us would make it impossible to know anything about Him. And we can know things. Otherwise teachers would have been redundant, and students non-existent. We need different ways of thinking about things so we can learn from each other. But that doesn't mean neither of us cannot eventually know anything.RosaMagika said:
If everybody had that approach to life - to let everybody just be the way they are, ignorant or vain - nothing would ever be achieved. Civilization and society would be bankrupt. You even contradict yourself with that statement: why aren't you willing to let me be the way I am?
So let me ask you this: even if I don't expect you to believe me, or everything I had learned; if I didn't presume to know everything or judge your perspective - are you willing to get to know God anyway?
The God I know would be sad that you are snapping at eachother. I really find it so hard to understand why poeple cant just see God as 'Love' and leave it at that. It doesnt matter what religion you are or what you believe in or what you know or whatever. A 'human being' cannot deny that 'love' is the greatest thing of all.
I don't like snapping at anybody either - it's destructive. But there really are too many religions of convenience around. I can tolerate many things, but apathy is really becoming another opium of the masses. People too easily promote everything they believe in the name of love or God or tolerance, as if that settles the matter, and there is no responsibility to find out why these things carry so much power or what they imply. The end result is people holding beliefs for which they take no responsibility, and which they're not willing to be held accountable to. I didn't take such an easy way out when I chose to follow God, and it grieves me to see people mocking my decision by making it seem to be just that.c20H25N3o said:
If people are sincere and convinced about their beliefs, they should have no qualms about living up to them, and that's all I'm asking. For example, who is the God of 'love' you believe in? Is He just a flowery scent in a grassy field, or does He also demand justice? Does He agree with you that nothing else matters? Many people think you are not entitled to have answers to these questions. Why do you think that is?
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The God of Love i believe in is here --- http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=36438
I speak in terms of the abstract i.e Love because it is less likely to cause people to trip over religous terminology. I do not want to argue theology endlessly or get into debates about something that is precious to me. I am quite happy to be an example of my faith tho and live in Love.
And anyway 'God is Love'. I have walked with the spirit for a long time now. Your question about 'Does He Demand Justice.' ... I think you need to put that into some sort of context. Jesus certainly didnt call for justice against those that crucified him. Rather he prayed to His Father to forgive them because they didnt know what they were doing. There is no condemnation in Christ. Thats really important. Love covers a multitude of sins. Lets not bash eachother and call for unbelievers to give account of themselves. Lets just pray that our brothers and sisters find peace.
I speak in terms of the abstract i.e Love because it is less likely to cause people to trip over religous terminology. I do not want to argue theology endlessly or get into debates about something that is precious to me. I am quite happy to be an example of my faith tho and live in Love.
And anyway 'God is Love'. I have walked with the spirit for a long time now. Your question about 'Does He Demand Justice.' ... I think you need to put that into some sort of context. Jesus certainly didnt call for justice against those that crucified him. Rather he prayed to His Father to forgive them because they didnt know what they were doing. There is no condemnation in Christ. Thats really important. Love covers a multitude of sins. Lets not bash eachother and call for unbelievers to give account of themselves. Lets just pray that our brothers and sisters find peace.
That's exactly what I'm saying.c20H25N3o said:
Although you said earlier, "It doesnt matter what religion you are or what you believe in or what you know or whatever." So it does matter. Jesus did forgive his enemies, but only He was in a position to do so.
Please understand that I'm not attacking people's beliefs, or even trying to force them out of them, I'm worried about a 'live and let live; there's nothing to know' attitude that cannot progress beyond itself. Nobody can afford to be the frog slowly being boiled alive - and if Christians are caught up in the same attitude, they won't point point out the fact that even though the water's the same temperature for everyone, it's also getting hotter for everyone.
I dont really know what to say other than I think we may have our wires crossed.
I do feel your frustration really.
All I will say tho is I cannot carry the weight of the cross for all or I cannot convince everyone that its getting hotter. I am neither strong enough or worthy to carry that full burden and why should I. Salvation wouldnt really be a gift if I had to do it on my own strength. If people see that I am happier moving to a cooler area, maybe they will follow me into the shade willingly. They are too hot and bothered to listen to my ranting were i predisposed to do so.
I do feel your frustration really.
All I will say tho is I cannot carry the weight of the cross for all or I cannot convince everyone that its getting hotter. I am neither strong enough or worthy to carry that full burden and why should I. Salvation wouldnt really be a gift if I had to do it on my own strength. If people see that I am happier moving to a cooler area, maybe they will follow me into the shade willingly. They are too hot and bothered to listen to my ranting were i predisposed to do so.
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Jenyar,
What is *not* humble is the *content* of your opinion.
Change a few names in the Bible, and you get the essence of Nazism.
This is a false post hoc ergo propter hoc.
Fact is that you think that my conviction is wanting to change you, the same as it is yours wanting to change me.
You obvioulsy cannot imagine what it is like to simply have an opinion without wanting to change the other person.
It is the content of your belief that you must influence others in a certain way. My belief says that I should not influence others in any certain way.
Did I ever say to you that you should give up believing in God? Did I ever say to you that you should give agnosticism a chance? Did I ever ask you whether you are willing to give agnosticism a try?
I certainly have not, but I am quite sure that this is how you read my words.
You, on the other hand, keep on directly aiming at me with your "are you willing to get to know God anyway?"
But I can see that you read my belief and my doings as if I were here on a "mission" -- like you are.
You obviously think that since Christians are here with a certain purpose and a certain mission -- that other people are also here on a certain mission of their own.
And that my "mission" is to change you, or convince you of how agnosticism is the right thing to do.
But *I* don't see my life as a mission.
What is this supposed to mean? Whose God? Mine? Yours?
You are so, how should I say, ... you can hardly wait to find someone who doesn't think the same way you do. For then, you can show and "prove" how strong and right your faith is. Without agnostics, atheists, and all kinds of "pagans", you Christians have nothing and noone to compare yourself to. You need us, for only when you compare yourselves to us, you feel like Christians.
We don't need you to be able to define ourselves.
In your own eyes, as paradoxically as this may sound, you are a little more than dust without us.
You consider us to be your problem -- you approach us with the attitude of wanting to solve that problem. If there would be no "pagans", Christians had nothing to do -- and couldn't be Christians.
How pathetic.
Shame on you.
What is *not* humble is the *content* of your opinion.
Change a few names in the Bible, and you get the essence of Nazism.
This is a false post hoc ergo propter hoc.
Fact is that you think that my conviction is wanting to change you, the same as it is yours wanting to change me.
You obvioulsy cannot imagine what it is like to simply have an opinion without wanting to change the other person.
It is the content of your belief that you must influence others in a certain way. My belief says that I should not influence others in any certain way.
Did I ever say to you that you should give up believing in God? Did I ever say to you that you should give agnosticism a chance? Did I ever ask you whether you are willing to give agnosticism a try?
I certainly have not, but I am quite sure that this is how you read my words.
You, on the other hand, keep on directly aiming at me with your "are you willing to get to know God anyway?"
But I can see that you read my belief and my doings as if I were here on a "mission" -- like you are.
You obviously think that since Christians are here with a certain purpose and a certain mission -- that other people are also here on a certain mission of their own.
And that my "mission" is to change you, or convince you of how agnosticism is the right thing to do.
But *I* don't see my life as a mission.
What is this supposed to mean? Whose God? Mine? Yours?
You are so, how should I say, ... you can hardly wait to find someone who doesn't think the same way you do. For then, you can show and "prove" how strong and right your faith is. Without agnostics, atheists, and all kinds of "pagans", you Christians have nothing and noone to compare yourself to. You need us, for only when you compare yourselves to us, you feel like Christians.
We don't need you to be able to define ourselves.
In your own eyes, as paradoxically as this may sound, you are a little more than dust without us.
You consider us to be your problem -- you approach us with the attitude of wanting to solve that problem. If there would be no "pagans", Christians had nothing to do -- and couldn't be Christians.
How pathetic.
Shame on you.
RosaMagika said:
Was 'You' directed at Jenyar or Christians in general?
If it was general (Christian*s*) I would like to make a comment please.
I am a 'Christian' because that is a word that means you believe in Jesus and his teachings: about loving your neighbour and being thankful to God for what you have; walking humbly and at peace.
I am not a Christian because I have a need to feel superior to another human being. That would go against the grain so to speak.
Peace
c20 :m:
c20H25N3o,
If you come to me, telling me I should "give God a try" or "get to know Jesus", then, yes, then I will consider you the same kind of Christian as Jenyar is.
But apparently, there are more "kinds" of Christians: there are such who let others be without wishing to change them, and there are such who in one way or another wish to change me.
Christians have very different opinions on what it means to be a Christian.
Some say,
"I am a 'Christian' because that is a word that means you believe in Jesus and his teachings: about loving your neighbour and being thankful to God for what you have; walking humbly and at peace."
Some other say, they wish me to get to know Christ.
Some other took a sword and killed everyone who didn't convert.
The problem is that all Christians call themselves Christians.
How am I to know which are which?
I wish to be as honest as possible, I don't want to generalize.
I ask Christians, and they direct me to the Bible.
But if I read the Bible -- it speaks against me. And so many acts of Christians speak against me.
You say you wish to walk humbly and at peace.
Some of your fellow believers have very different ideas of what "humbly and at peace" is.
Do not be surprised if people like me have great distrust in Christianity, when we see such a large range of what "love" is.
You obvioulsy have an issue of great inconsistency in your own lines. This is not a problem of the non-believers. You don't behave as one unified and equally thinking group of people, yet you all go by the same name.
And you want non-believers to see you as one unity -- while at the same time you don't act as such.
What am I supposed to do? Christians simply aren't trustworthy. I know this is a generalization, but it is not my fault that you all go by the same name.
Christians preach love and humility and understanding -- and then DO something else, even the opposite. And then I am expected to see them as simple and imperfect human beings -- okay.
But what I am not okay with is that I should still give this religion a try. I don't have to become a Christian to accept people as they are, with their "faults" and "imperfections".
If you come to me, telling me I should "give God a try" or "get to know Jesus", then, yes, then I will consider you the same kind of Christian as Jenyar is.
But apparently, there are more "kinds" of Christians: there are such who let others be without wishing to change them, and there are such who in one way or another wish to change me.
Christians have very different opinions on what it means to be a Christian.
Some say,
"I am a 'Christian' because that is a word that means you believe in Jesus and his teachings: about loving your neighbour and being thankful to God for what you have; walking humbly and at peace."
Some other say, they wish me to get to know Christ.
Some other took a sword and killed everyone who didn't convert.
The problem is that all Christians call themselves Christians.
How am I to know which are which?
I wish to be as honest as possible, I don't want to generalize.
I ask Christians, and they direct me to the Bible.
But if I read the Bible -- it speaks against me. And so many acts of Christians speak against me.
You say you wish to walk humbly and at peace.
Some of your fellow believers have very different ideas of what "humbly and at peace" is.
Do not be surprised if people like me have great distrust in Christianity, when we see such a large range of what "love" is.
You obvioulsy have an issue of great inconsistency in your own lines. This is not a problem of the non-believers. You don't behave as one unified and equally thinking group of people, yet you all go by the same name.
And you want non-believers to see you as one unity -- while at the same time you don't act as such.
What am I supposed to do? Christians simply aren't trustworthy. I know this is a generalization, but it is not my fault that you all go by the same name.
Christians preach love and humility and understanding -- and then DO something else, even the opposite. And then I am expected to see them as simple and imperfect human beings -- okay.
But what I am not okay with is that I should still give this religion a try. I don't have to become a Christian to accept people as they are, with their "faults" and "imperfections".
RosaMagika
You know your own mind. I think it is unfortunate that people have to be labelled at all but thats just how it is. Judge me by my posts tho. I promise I wont try and force my beliefs on you. Its probably important to see the 'person' before the 'Christian', accepting people as they are, with their "faults" and "imperfections". I appreciate that this is incredibly hard to do if they are forcing the 'Christian' rather than their 'person'.
I guess I just hate generalisations but I understand your points
peace
c20 :m:
You know your own mind. I think it is unfortunate that people have to be labelled at all but thats just how it is. Judge me by my posts tho. I promise I wont try and force my beliefs on you. Its probably important to see the 'person' before the 'Christian', accepting people as they are, with their "faults" and "imperfections". I appreciate that this is incredibly hard to do if they are forcing the 'Christian' rather than their 'person'.
I guess I just hate generalisations but I understand your points
peace
c20 :m: