Posted by InvertNexus
"You can't have faith if God is proven."
A very powerful statement.
"You can't have faith if God is proven."
A very powerful statement.
Why doesn't God just show himself?
- Thread starter moementum7
- Start date
Rappaccini said:
God isn't blind though.
Psalm 23:4
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou [art] with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
He guides us because we are His sheep. As sheep, we have gone astry and He is the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.
But I am blind to him.
Jesus was the only light to reveal him, but I cannot know if Jesus ever even existed.
All that remains is a silly little book.
On Christ, the book reads:
Who is the image of the invisible God...
Colossians 1:15
Jesus may or may not have been the Way and the Truth, but he is gone.
We are all blind, for he has long passed from this world.
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:9
He was removed from our sight, even according to Scripture.
We must all live benighted, ignorant of God.
Jesus was the only light to reveal him, but I cannot know if Jesus ever even existed.
All that remains is a silly little book.
On Christ, the book reads:
Who is the image of the invisible God...
Colossians 1:15
Jesus may or may not have been the Way and the Truth, but he is gone.
We are all blind, for he has long passed from this world.
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:9
He was removed from our sight, even according to Scripture.
We must all live benighted, ignorant of God.
What I don't get is why people describe god as perfect then go on to say he is good or great and then some might say he is bad or really bad
Anyway, purely my take on the subject, if god was perfect he would be in equilibrium. He would be balance. Because if he knows everything he knows good and bad etc. Therefore if we presume he has perfect judgement he has to be balance.
So god is not good, great, bad, or really bad. That would be my understanding of what the christian god might be aiming at, but his insatiable lust for the love of humans dements this (along with all of his freaky deaky acts).
Whoever said “why doesn't god show himself: because he doesn't exist.” I totally agree.
PS anyone understand anti-semitism? I don't. God killed jesus, god chose jews to kill him. Where does anti semitism come from? It seems like misdirected anger at jews because of god for preordaining jesus' death. The catholics that don't like jews are nuts.
Anyway, purely my take on the subject, if god was perfect he would be in equilibrium. He would be balance. Because if he knows everything he knows good and bad etc. Therefore if we presume he has perfect judgement he has to be balance.
So god is not good, great, bad, or really bad. That would be my understanding of what the christian god might be aiming at, but his insatiable lust for the love of humans dements this (along with all of his freaky deaky acts).
Whoever said “why doesn't god show himself: because he doesn't exist.” I totally agree.
PS anyone understand anti-semitism? I don't. God killed jesus, god chose jews to kill him. Where does anti semitism come from? It seems like misdirected anger at jews because of god for preordaining jesus' death. The catholics that don't like jews are nuts.
The sun rising every morning for every day of your life is evidence that it shall continue to do so. You may have faith that the it will rise tomorrow, but it isn't the same as the Faith you have in your god. God has not given you the constant reinforcement of the belief. God's "proofs" lie thousands of years in the past. You take even the "proof" on Faith.
Why bother with faith? I don’t have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow morning I understand why it happens and know that, baring some catastrophic event, it will rise. It seems to me that knowing and understanding are far more useful and comforting than faith.§outh§tar said:
~Raithere
Why not?
This is dependent upon how you see the world. A believer that the world revolves around the sun would see the sun's movement as a token of this fact. A non-believer, however, would believe the sun was truly moving.
Unless if you are God, you would know whether that possibility is impossible.
Because you have personally seen the sun rise every day of your life. (well, maybe you're not up at sunrise, but the sun's been there every day.) God has not proven himself to you at all. Except for the little "proofs" that all theists claim but which are totally subjective and prove nothing. Have you personally seen any great acts of god? Anything that would make you say "Holy shit, nothing but God could do that. Ok, I believe." And please, no visions or other emotional proofs, humans are prone to see things that aren't there when in a religious frenzy.
No matter how you see the world the sun has been there every day of your life. Even if you're blind, you feel the sun's warmth. In fact, your ancestors all the way back to the bacteria have seen the sun rise every day (of course, this is a bit off topic, because one must take it on faith that the world existed before they were born). You don't have to understand solar mechanics to believe the sun will rise tomorrow. I made no mention about what revolves around what.
I really don't understand what you're saying here. What I think you might be saying is that one doesn't have access to all the events in the world and therefore can't say that god proves himself or not. Well, I can say that if there were some major events in the world today, such as the parting of the Red Sea or people being turned to salt by god's wrath, I think they would be advertised pretty heavily. The only "proofs" that I do hear about are Catholics seeing the virgin Mary in a reflection or other such nonsense.
God was "proven" to the Israelites. Strangely enough, even with all the proof god laid at their feet, they needed to be reminded over and over again. Then, god was "proven" to the early christians. Since then there has been no "proof." Since then, we've been told that we must have Faith. As I said before, if God was so willing to prove himself in the ancient times, why not now? Has he run out of production values? I suppose he used up most of his special effects and is saving the rest for judgement day. Well, that's just great, so the people that were alive and present at any of his earlier "proofs" were given the opportunity to believe in a god that proves himself to them, but we latter-day humans don't get that benefit. They go to heaven because god proved himself to them, we go to hell because god doesn't think we're worthy of such proof. Not very fair if you ask me. Of course, no one ever accused god of being fair, but that's another topic altogether.
Since you are not God, you would not know that.
I'm going to avoid being called a schizophrenia but one of the greatest acts of God is hope. I do believe I've heard God and Mary's voice, and I still make many mistakes. I understand too why the Isrealites failed so often. It's within man's power to hide the truth from themselves. If someone does not want to know the truth, they will not know. If someone want to know God, they must want to know more than anything else. By rejecting the everything else, his existence becomes known.
I don't think there's any sure natural explanation for Fatima or Zeitun.
What makes you so certain that there's been no proof since then?
The good thing is that you can't really test someone you don't exist. Well, you could read the story of Job and accuse God of not coming up with anything more powerful than our methods of destruction.
Again, remember how I mentioned don't tell me about any visions or unprovable things like that? Assuming that god is proving himself by ways that might be mistaken for madness or gullibility, why did he do it different before? If god wanted to, he could surely come down and do something extreme that would prove his existence to all but the most stubborn. He doesn't do that. Why? (Remember the point of the thread?)
I don't know what Fatima or Zeitun you're referencing are? Are they people who have seen visions of god or something?
And by the way, I have read the story of Job. I, unlike most christians, have read the bible. I don't have it memorized, but I have read it. And there's some nasty stuff in there. But, again, that would be another topic.
I don't know what Fatima or Zeitun you're referencing are? Are they people who have seen visions of god or something?
And by the way, I have read the story of Job. I, unlike most christians, have read the bible. I don't have it memorized, but I have read it. And there's some nasty stuff in there. But, again, that would be another topic.
Now it is such a bizarrely impossible coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to
see it as a final and clinching proof of the nonexistence of God. The arguement goes something like this:
"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," say Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't though of that" and promply vanishes in a puff of logic.
Douglas Adams --The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
see it as a final and clinching proof of the nonexistence of God. The arguement goes something like this:
"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," say Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't though of that" and promply vanishes in a puff of logic.
Douglas Adams --The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
God does not just prove themselves as there is some grace to be obtained by searching for him, by rejecting that which tells us he does not exist. This is why Jesus said "blessed are those who believe but do not see," yet gave strict reproach to those who rejected him while seeing his miracles.
Fatima is where a series of visions were given to three peasent children in Portugal. The only seer alive is Lucia; she had predicted the other two children would die. These visions culminated in the miracle of the sun that 70,000 witnessed.
Zeitun is a city in Egypt where an apparition of the virgin Mary appeared to muslims and coptic christians and photographs and tv clips of the apparition were taken.
Oh, so it's about having Faith without proof. That's what I said. So that means that those who lived in times when god was more active, and believed because god proved himself to them, while they are going to heaven are less blessed than those today who believe with no proof. Where does that leave the people who don't believe without proof? SOL? Still doesn't seem fair to me.
Ok, I've heard of Fatima then. It's been awhile, but I vaguely remember hearing that the girls later confessed to lying about it. Could be wrong on that. Weren't their stigmata and the like involved too? And mass visions don't mean anything. If someone says they see a vision of god and you don't see it what are you going to do if you're a faithful christian? Say you don't see it? That'd most likely get you ostracized at the very least, burned at the stake at the worst. And even if they did think they saw something, it could still be chalked up to hysteria. As you say, the desire to believe is very strong. The human mind is quite malleable under certain conditions.
I haven't heard of Zeitun, but again "visions" don't prove anything. Do you have any links to the images recorded? I've seen pictures of "visions" before and saw nothing. While others say "Look, right there, it's there, what are you blind?"
I remember seeing reports on psychological experiments done on college students. The students were brought in to a group of other students. Only one student out of each group was the test subject. The others were in on it. The researcher would show a poster with three lines on it. Two of the lines were the same length and the other was much shorter or longer. The question was which of the lines were equal. The students would answer one at a time. With the test subject answering last. All the students would choose the wrong lines. The lines that obviously were not equal in length. The test subject would look incredulous that these people were so stupid and would pick the right two lines. Then they would do it again. Again, the same response, all the students answered wrong. Eventually, in almost every case, the test subject would "break." You could actually see it in his face when it happened. He started going with the crowd. There must be something he doesn't understand about how he's supposed to answer, so to not look foolish among his peers (or whatever reason) he chose the answer that he knew to be wrong. Carried far enough, he would no longer think the wrong answer was wrong. Peer pressure is insidious. There were a variety of other experiments that followed a similar vein, that's the only one I can recall off-hand though.
If god wanted to show himself, why would he do it to 70,000 people in Portugal and not everywhere in the world? Why to some people in Egypt and not everywhere in the world? Were these people judged by god to be worthy of being shown a vision of his glory? Or actually, by the logic of more grace in believing in that which you don't see, I guess they're cursed by god. When they get to heaven all the believers who saw no vision will jeer and laugh at these guys who needed to see a vision to enhance their belief, even if they already had faith and needed no vision to prove their faith. Hardly fair to those in heaven or hell.
I would say that one reason is trust, if we constantly *knew* God was watching then some of us wouldn't be as honest with our actions as we are ("when the teacher is away" should bring back memories) and we wouldn't feel free to do what we want out of fear from Him, maybe some of us wouldn't dare to do anything...
Another reason may be that belief in something unseen and unknown is needed in life (as simple as that).
Yet another reason may be that everything has a consequence, and God being visible to us may not lead to the right consequences.
I think Life is more than we can imagine, there's alot of big lessons to be learned.
The bible describes it as giving birth, there's alot of suffering but in the end the suffering will be forgotten when we receive the child.
Also, it's my belief that in God's light all of our faults will be visible, and maybe we need more time to heal some of them (and to healing ourselves may in itself be a part of the greater meaning).
Another reason may be that belief in something unseen and unknown is needed in life (as simple as that).
Yet another reason may be that everything has a consequence, and God being visible to us may not lead to the right consequences.
I think Life is more than we can imagine, there's alot of big lessons to be learned.
The bible describes it as giving birth, there's alot of suffering but in the end the suffering will be forgotten when we receive the child.
Also, it's my belief that in God's light all of our faults will be visible, and maybe we need more time to heal some of them (and to healing ourselves may in itself be a part of the greater meaning).
The Bible gives its own definition of what faith is:
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
I know that world has a different definition but i will stick with the Biblical definition. I know God is there is no blind faith with me. I do not need a sign a wonder a miracle to convince me that God is.
The signs and miracles where for a purpose and that was to give authority to the one delivering the will of God to the people. But once the will of God is delivered to the people there is no further need for signs, because the truth can stand on it's own and those who love the truth will hear it and know it is the truth. These people don't need a miracle. As you said yourself God gave many signs to the Jews and others in times past but even those signs could not keep them from going against Gods will. The Messiah said to some of the scribes and Pharisees :
Matthew 12:39
But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
The prophet Jonah spent three days in a whale and lived The Messiah spent three days in the tomb and came back to life.
But great signs and wonders will be preformed again and many will believe because of them. But these signs and wonders will not be from God for prophecy says:
2 Thessalonians 2
9The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
So if you depend on signs and wonders to bring you to belief you have set yourself up for the great deception. For the antichrist will use them to deceive those who will not receive the love of the truth. The Love of the truth is found in the Message of The Messiah Immanuel, it is in His message that i know God is. There is no blind faith about it. It is the acceptance and love of the truth that gives me "the evidence of things not seen.
"
The Messiah also says:
Matthew 7
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
All Praise The Ancient of Days
Ah, the Christian Ad Star eh? Living up to your name.
I have to ask though, I mean you said:
"The signs and miracles where for a purpose and that was to give authority to the one delivering the will of God to the people. But once the will of God is delivered to the people there is no further need for signs, because the truth can stand on it's own and those who love the truth will hear it and know it is the truth. "
So I'm thinking you just shit all over a bunch of Muslims and Hindus, or are you gonna say something about how god works in mysterious ways? If so, then what if "his ways" are so mysterious that from our perspective in the universe, atheism is actually the closest believe to truth? Not possible eh? How about monism sans religion? No? Probably because your book says differently huh? I can feel the bible quotes coming now. *sigh* I see. It's "truth" that you love eh? I saw a lot of truth in my calculus book and I loved it. How about that book. Let us quote to each other the fundamental theorum of calculus, and it shall be good.
Do you even stop to examine what you're saying? It's a bunch of ridiculous, random shit that in your bible-centric perspective may have merit, but that perspective has no basis outside of your taste in exagerated, propagandic collections of folk-lore.
I have to ask though, I mean you said:
"The signs and miracles where for a purpose and that was to give authority to the one delivering the will of God to the people. But once the will of God is delivered to the people there is no further need for signs, because the truth can stand on it's own and those who love the truth will hear it and know it is the truth. "
So I'm thinking you just shit all over a bunch of Muslims and Hindus, or are you gonna say something about how god works in mysterious ways? If so, then what if "his ways" are so mysterious that from our perspective in the universe, atheism is actually the closest believe to truth? Not possible eh? How about monism sans religion? No? Probably because your book says differently huh? I can feel the bible quotes coming now. *sigh* I see. It's "truth" that you love eh? I saw a lot of truth in my calculus book and I loved it. How about that book. Let us quote to each other the fundamental theorum of calculus, and it shall be good.
Do you even stop to examine what you're saying? It's a bunch of ridiculous, random shit that in your bible-centric perspective may have merit, but that perspective has no basis outside of your taste in exagerated, propagandic collections of folk-lore.
If there was a god it would be absolutely impervious to us. To think that an entity with the ability to create the universe would care whether or not our little species acknowledged it is ridiculus.
I think you are misinterpreting me. God is fully capable to judge on the basis of knowledge received.
No one confessed to lying.
Yes, I would say I don't see it.
http://www.zeitun-eg.org/
There are some photographs here. The photograph quality is not too good, I think, so the testimony of this relies also on thousands muslims and coptic christians who say what they saw.
I have heard of this experiement also. But I think your forgetting that the group studied were college students sitting together, and the tendancy of peer presure would have been significantly higher.
Zeitun is on the path that the holy family took during their exile into Egypt.
That's dependent on whether they believed before seeing the vision or after seeing it. I don't mean they will be cursed. But there's greater sins a person who knows God can commit verses someone who doesn't.