Okinrus,
I think you are misinterpreting me. God is fully capable to judge on the basis of knowledge received.
What does this mean? Of course God would be capable of judging. That's one of his main functions according to scripture. I think that you're arguing that Faith has nothing to do with proof. The verse you use to illustrate this speaks of Grace not Faith, so I'll accept your argument. I can't quote any verses that specifically state why god doesn't show himself. As I said, I've read the bible but not memorized it. The verses that always stick out in my mind are the unspeakably horrible ones. The ones about god acting in ways that show no aspect of fairness. That's my main beef with god, his unfairness. He appears to judge by different standards at different times.
On the subject of Fatima and Zeitun and the experiments I cited, you say that the students were seated next to other students. Weren't the 70,000 next to each other? Weren't the people at Zeitun next to each other? I think the peer pressure of a group of 70,000 people would be far higher than 4 other people. Especially among people who are inclined to believe in such things to begin with.
I checked out the Zeitun site. As you say, the photographic quality is poor. Very poor. Why would god bother proving himself in a way that could be open to claims of fraud? God could prove himself, without a doubt, if he so wished. Adstar states verses that claim that the day of proofs is over. That the antichrist will use these methods to lure people into a way opposite to god's way. If this is so, wouldn't these incidents be more likely the work of the antichrist and not god? Convenient isn't it? It's basically saying the proofs we have seen are from god. Any proofs that come later will be the work of the antichrist. We're right, they're wrong. Again, inherently unfair. And how would one determine if it's the antichrist or the second coming? Seems the only way to know for sure is when you find yourself in heaven or hell. And then it's too late.
What about Saul on the road to Damascus? He didn't believe in Christianity. God showed himself to him and from this the catholic church descended. Is Saul shown less grace because of the nature of his conversion? I bet you'd piss of a few catholics if you said so. Why does Saul get proof of god and I get nothing? Unfair. Even if you are shown less grace because because of the nature of the vision, it's certainly better than hell isn't it? All of us who don't believe because we have seen no proof are doomed to hell. All of those who didn't believe and were converted by being shown god go to heaven. I'd take less grace over hell anyday.
About the topic of whether or not you believed before the vision. What about the muslims that saw the visions at Zeitun? The visions are of the virgin Mary, which is almost always a common theme in these visions, it's almost never god or jesus that is seen, but the virgin Mary. The muslim's don't believe in the virgin Mary. I'm assuming that those who saw this vision altered their viewpoints on their religion because of it. What about them? Will they be spit upon in heaven? The christians believed before, the muslim's didn't. Once again, unfair. Or, I guess the muslims that converted would have to live more ideal lives as their grace is less and sins that believers with no visions commit which can be forgiven would send the others straight to hell.
Reminds me of a Saturday Night Live a long time ago, Jim Carey was hosting. He played a guy that used "I'll see you in hell" once in a conversation to an asshole on the phone. Everyone in the office started cheering him, "way to go!" So he started using it so much that it lost all significance and pretty soon it was just his way of saying hi. "Hey, Bob. How's the family? I'll see you in hell." At the end of the skit, he was in hell and all his buddies showed up. Pity he wasn't shown a vision of god. "Why art thou persecuting me?"
Or what about South Park when it is determined that in fact it was the Mormons who had the correct religion. Everyone else goes right to hell. Basically, without some type of proof of god, picking a religion is just a crap shoot. They all have equal amounts of good content and bad content. Most people choose their religion because their parents were a certain religion. Without proof, we're being punished for the sins of our fathers. Of our grandfathers. Of our great-grandfathers. I don't know the exact verse, but there is a verse in the bible that says that sins of the fathers will be punished to the 4th generation I believe. If your family has been part of the wrong religion for longer than that, you should be excused for choosing the wrong one.
