Why do theists associate with non-theists?

[Gandalf]

Gandalf -

Do you believe in eternal damnation?

No. I don't believe in eternal damnation. I take a much more majestic view of the nature and purposes of God

I firmly believe something about the universe or outside the universe has what I can only describe as supra-consciousness. Those who are sensitive can sense its presence and they call it "God". I believe it is loving beyond measure at its core and it has a much grander scheme to its purpose than holding an eternal weenie roast of the not-nice people.

I think that humanity is not the final goal and crowing achievement of Its designs. In fact, the very evolution of the universe, from the formation of matter into heavier and heavier elements, to the evolution of life and increased complexity and consciousness all stems from this force I call "God." The mechanism for these transformations follow the laws of physics, but at the core, within the deepest, yet unprobed, recesses of the universe's nature is that which I call God. I cannot imagine the universe without having this driving force at the core and as the originator of all things.

Of course, I could be wrong. Either way, wow, just look up at the sky at night; ain't it one hell of a ride!!

 

[wynn]

In what church are you a pastor?
At least tell us the denomination.

 

[Pincho Paxton]

No. I don't believe in eternal damnation. I take a much more majestic view of the nature and purposes of God

I firmly believe something about the universe or outside the universe has what I can only describe as supra-consciousness. Those who are sensitive can sense its presence and they call it "God". I believe it is loving beyond measure at its core and it has a much grander scheme to its purpose than holding an eternal weenie roast of the not-nice people.

I think that humanity is not the final goal and crowing achievement of Its designs. In fact, the very evolution of the universe, from the formation of matter into heavier and heavier elements, to the evolution of life and increased complexity and consciousness all stems from this force I call "God." The mechanism for these transformations follow the laws of physics, but at the core, within the deepest, yet unprobed, recesses of the universe's nature is that which I call God. I cannot imagine the universe without having this driving force at the core and as the originator of all things.

Of course, I could be wrong. Either way, wow, just look up at the sky at night; ain't it one hell of a ride!!

Not trying to be insulting, but you could also call it the simplicity of your child-like mind. Say you were a child. You are amazed at the magic of the PS3, and the television, and the mobile phone. I'm still amazed by some of our inventors, and genius. But there are people who know a lot about how these things work, and they find them simple. I find the creation of the Universe a simple thing to simulate in a computer program. That is my speciality. I am not in awe of the Universe.. man has created far more complexity than can be found in the universe. Life is a random event, but mankind creates technology in a clean, and clinical manner. It is actually more difficult to force events to happen in a coordinated fashion rather than a random fashion. Take a neural network computer program. It can create physics randomly that are very difficult to create with linear maths. What you are actually in awe of is the random effects of chaos. I have seen neural networks come to life, and it is just as awe inspiring, and a bit scary.

 

[Arioch]

@Pincho --

Wow! Humans have created something more complex than the human brain? That's impressive considering it's one of the most complex things we've found in the universe....oh wait, you're just talking out of your ass again.

 

[Pincho Paxton]

@Pincho --

Wow! Humans have created something more complex than the human brain? That's impressive considering it's one of the most complex things we've found in the universe....oh wait, you're just talking out of your ass again.

Maybe English isn't your first language, in that case I will let you off for your missing the whole textual context out. I said...

Take a neural network computer program. It can create physics randomly that are very difficult to create with linear maths.

... a brain is very difficult to create with maths.. but for it to happen randomly is eventually inevitable. But man could make one better in far less a timeframe. 1000 years of computer technology compared to billions of years of random events.

 

[Arioch]

@Pincho --

From my typing does it look like English isn't my first language? While I'm still perfecting my writing skills(any writer will tell you the same), my grasp of the English language is far superior to that of the average person, and several yonks beyond yours.

No, I fully understood what you were saying. Yes, we probably will be able to create a more complex computer eventually(though I wasn't strictly speaking about computers), but we haven't done it yet have we? Nope, so no matter how semantic you get, you're still just talking out of your ass.

 

[Gandalf]

Not trying to be insulting, but you could also call it the simplicity of your child-like mind.

Wow, just wow. You set me up by telling me you don't PLAN to be insulting, then you proceed to the insult by calling my best observation on the nature of God/the universe a work of a child-like mind! Just from that statement alone, I can tell you're a piece of work, sir.

I find the creation of the Universe a simple thing to simulate in a computer program. That is my speciality. I am not in awe of the Universe.. man has created far more complexity than can be found in the universe.

Again,your hubris is stunning. I've studied cosmology as a layman most of my life, and I'm no slouch at it, although I'm terribly poor in math, and don't understand the deep equations behind some of the formulas. I rely on others conclusions. Nevertheless, what I've found is a beautiful tapestry. Creation truly astounds me: the more I learn, the more I'm in awe. And I'm not alone. Others in the field of cosmology express the same awe as I do when they consider what they've found out about the nature of the universe. They, nor I, have a simple mind, I can assure you of that!

Perhaps you've misinterpreted your own little achievements as having far more value than they do. I'm sure that in time, humanity can and will develop AI, true AI, and not just the skeletal parts of it we have developed now. However, this itself should amaze you.

Have you ever stopped and thought why it is that consciousness itself is EVEN POSSIBLY? We have trouble defining what it is even, but that fact that it's essentially a part of the universe observing itself is mind-boggling to me and to profession scientists around the world. And of course, consciousness itself stands on the very tall shoulders of the phenomenon of Life. That's an entirely other majestic subject in and of itself.

Why is it that my poor ole simple mind can both understand (partial) and be in awe of such incredible processes, and your allegedly vastly superior mind cannot. It begs the question of who's mind is really the simple one here!

@Pincho --

Wow! Humans have created something more complex than the human brain? That's impressive considering it's one of the most complex things we've found in the universe....oh wait, you're just talking out of your ass again.

Agreed!

 

[Aqueous Id]

I am not an atheist exactly. I'm practically an anti theist. theism is almost scary to me. for 1 thing it's protected by this idea called freedom of religion. that freedom was instituted in america in conjunction with slavery and a bunch of other hypocritical stuff. and the religions that were protected in many cases supported not only slavery but the burning of the innocent women accused of witchcraft, and the murder of the indigenous people and the theft their land and their eventual genocide and enslavement.

imagine committing these acts just after singing a resounding verse of "praise god from whom all blessings flow. "

where does theism begin and sadism end, especially in the land of the brave
and the home of the free and especially when the pure white race with its blue eyed god arrived on the shores in some ways like a horde of vikings.

to me theism is a code word for something dangerous. worst of all it is a code word for fundamentalism which is a mixture of superstition and ignorance. you might as well load a person's mind with a virtual form of nitro glycerin.

hey here's a good challenge 4 y'all who might take umbrage at my words.

wasn't there a legend about a sort of god man named ahura mazda, and did he not have a last supper with his 12 disciples just before his execution by crucifixion. because this takes place in persia hundreds of years before the jesus story appears. pretty coincidental don't you think.

and the place were the dead sea scrolls were found. weren't these people taking rocks from their quarries and leaving the holes to fill with water for drinking and eventually for bathing. and is this not the meaning of baptism, to bathe. these folks had left jerusalem to start over with a more pure form of judaism. to some degree they were out casts. it would be a good place for a rebel to hide out. I mean a rebel against the roman overlords. that's the real movie I wanted mel gibson to make.

to me the story of jesus is the story of the jewish conflict with rome. the savior is a magician so powerful he can heal the sick and raise the dead and in fact his father was god the creator of heaven and earth. and that's what it's going to take to get the romans off their back. the story we are familiar with, working miracles, speaking in mysterious metaphors, teaching principles of religion and then being executed, then of course resurrecting from the dead, to me these began as a sort of political advertisement 4 a new leader to save them from the roman persecution and oppression and repeated desecration of the temple.

I think the story evolved many times before it arrived in its present form.

so I would certainly have trouble basing my deepest convictions on a story like this. but hey what do I know I'm just a non believer. but I do enjoy these discussions with the fundamentalists especially when they're trying to baptize me and convert me or offer me cookies or soup hoping that I will get the message that they got from some crazy story that sprang up in the wilderness of a backward country an ancient times when the world was flat and magicians walked on water.

 

[Pincho Paxton]

Wow, just wow. You set me up by telling me you don't PLAN to be insulting, then you proceed to the insult by calling my best observation on the nature of God/the universe a work of a child-like mind! Just from that statement alone, I can tell you're a piece of work, sir.



Again,your hubris is stunning. I've studied cosmology as a layman most of my life, and I'm no slouch at it, although I'm terribly poor in math, and don't understand the deep equations behind some of the formulas. I rely on others conclusions. Nevertheless, what I've found is a beautiful tapestry. Creation truly astounds me: the more I learn, the more I'm in awe. And I'm not alone. Others in the field of cosmology express the same awe as I do when they consider what they've found out about the nature of the universe. They, nor I, have a simple mind, I can assure you of that!

Perhaps you've misinterpreted your own little achievements as having far more value than they do. I'm sure that in time, humanity can and will develop AI, true AI, and not just the skeletal parts of it we have developed now. However, this itself should amaze you.

Have you ever stopped and thought why it is that consciousness itself is EVEN POSSIBLY? We have trouble defining what it is even, but that fact that it's essentially a part of the universe observing itself is mind-boggling to me and to profession scientists around the world. And of course, consciousness itself stands on the very tall shoulders of the phenomenon of Life. That's an entirely other majestic subject in and of itself.

Why is it that my poor ole simple mind can both understand (partial) and be in awe of such incredible processes, and your allegedly vastly superior mind cannot. It begs the question of who's mind is really the simple one here!



Agreed!

Well, again.. I understand consciousness as well, so not in awe of it. You can't program it because we can't manipulate quantum particles very well yet, but it is easy to understand, and once you understand it.. it's not all that amazing.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Well, again.. I understand consciousness as well

No you don't.
There's a vast difference between actual understanding and the random inanity of your delusion.

 

[Gandalf]

I am not an atheist exactly. I'm practically an anti theist. theism is almost scary to me. for 1 thing it's protected by this idea called freedom of religion. that freedom was instituted in america in conjunction with slavery and a bunch of other hypocritical stuff. and the religions that were protected in many cases supported not only slavery but the burning of the innocent women accused of witchcraft, and the murder of the indigenous people and the theft their land and their eventual genocide and enslavement.

imagine committing these acts just after singing a resounding verse of "praise god from whom all blessings flow. "

For me, I've moved away from the dogmatic assertions of my religion and seek to pursue a spiritual path instead of having the right doctrine or whatever. I'm gravitating more and more to a secular spirituality, much like I've found in the writing of Carl Sagan. One quick definition of secular spirituality that I like is:

"Spirituality exists wherever we struggle with the issues of how our lives fit into the greater scheme of things. This is true when our questions never give way to specific answers or give rise to specific practices such as prayer or meditation. we encounter spiritual issues every time we wonder where the universe comes from, why we are here, or what happens when we die. We also become spiritual when we become moved by values such as beauty, love, or creativity that seem to reveal a meaning or power beyond our visible world. An idea or practice is 'spiritual' when it reveals our personal desire to establish a felt-relationship with the deepest meanings or powers governing life." - Dr. Robert C. Fuller - Bradley University

That might be why some theists like me associate with atheists and even anti-theists. There is something spiritual which we are all looking for and call by different names. Still, I think it's there and science is one of the purest searches for the truth of spirituality that I've ever encountered.

 

[Dywyddyr]

There is something spiritual which we are all looking for and call by different names.

Is there?
:shrug:

Still, I think it's there and science is one of the purest searches for the truth of spirituality that I've ever encountered.

Er, science is a search for the "truth of spirituality"?
How does that work?

 

[Aqueous Id]

hello gandalf. well said. first time I took notice of carl sagan I think I said there but for the grace of god go I. I really liked his book on the origins of human intelligence. among other things. also in contact where the fundamentalist is confronted with the question of revelation as it applies in science, with the interesting idea that if god was really micromanaging scientific discovery, and if he slash she truly loved us, why didn't god just carve on to the moon the very important equation e equals mc squared.

on a more serious note I do believe serious things are going on in relation to the human consciousness, the motive power of life, the nature of nature, and the transition between real and virtual realities, or at least as I believe I understand these ideas.

I would say that I hold these things sacred in my mind and to that extent I suppose I could even say I am a theist depending upon how we might define the term. I was of course lashing out at fundamentalism perhaps because some other comment seemed to pull my trigger.

but since you're willing to take it a little deeper, I would add that theists and non theists would associate for the common purpose of climbing out of this cadaver and meeting what ever is beyond it. also is this common purpose of protecting what is sacred as a universal need that will of course transcend my earlier remarks. and so I conclude that I will commune with theists one way or the other, either shrinking back in horror by the desecration of what is sacred, done in the name of god, or else I would approach fearlessly into that zone you seem to occupy. I think yours is the comfort zone. thanks for putting me there.

 

[Cifo]

Would today's Christians put up with banks sending out goons to break people's legs?

Modern Christians would not. I said that some people sold themselves into slavery to *avoid* the goon treatment.

This allowed governments and powerful people to do untold terrible things.

People also looked poorly on slavery in Christ's day; and governments and tyrants were already committing terrible wrongs.

Physical punishment does little to actually produce lasting behavior change.

As I said, "a [very] primitive substance dependency recovery program)", and I also don't agree with its effectiveness either (and I have years of experience working in substance dependency recovery program).

Some readers here seem to overlook the point that the punishment occurs in the afterlife. Those readers who don't believe in the afterlife, believe they are looking forward to a dirt nap anyway.

The point of the master-slave parable is, if a person claims to be a Christian, then s/he had better toe the line or there will be hell to pay ... literally. By becoming a Christian, a person puts him/herself in servitude to Christ. Being a Christian is more than being someone's employee or servant. You surrender your life to Christ, as believers of other faiths also do to their gods and/or principles.

The degree of servitude reminds me of the 1993 movie "The Remains of the Day" starring Anthony Hopkins as an extremely faithful butler James Stevens in service to his master far above and beyond being an employee or servant. And the 1999 Chinese movie "Not One Less", where a newly-appointed teenage teacher takes the enormous (and dangerous) responsibility to find and return a runaway student.

Take 10 minutes to read the secular essay "A Message to Garcia" (1899), which you can find at many websites. In it, the author Elbert Hubbard basically says, if an employer pays your wages, then do as he asks, work for him, don't shirk, don't make excuses, don't grumble, and don't bad-mouth him behind his back ---- or you'll find yourself out of work (no mystery there).

 

[Pineal]

Modern Christians would not. I said that some people sold themselves into slavery to *avoid* the goon treatment.

Yes, but in context, your saying this seemed a defense of slavery. Well, they chose it. I don't think this works.

People also looked poorly on slavery in Christ's day;

But apparently Jesus did not. He said he was supporting the Law, which included slavery and he used a parable assuming the rightness of masters beating slaves in certain contexts.

 

[markl323]

the thing that bugs me the most about Intelligent Design "Scientists" is that they tend to "borrow" the work done by legitimate scientists/biologists.

they check out a biology book written by an atheist from a library, find a section that confuses them the most and exclaim "A ha! i have found another evidence for God!"

 

[Pincho Paxton]

No you don't.
There's a vast difference between actual understanding and the random inanity of your delusion.

No.. you are deluded to think that you can give anything to a thread by always saying wrong. You never contribute, you are actually hardly ever on topic. You are just a poster who annoys everyone with no input. Then I suppose you sit back, and imagine how clever you are.. that's deluded.

 

[Dywyddyr]

No.. you are deluded to think that you can give anything to a thread by always saying wrong. You never contribute, you are actually hardly ever on topic. You are just a poster who annoys everyone with no input. Then I suppose you sit back, and imagine how clever you are.. that's deluded.

I point out incorrectness when it's presented.
And your posts tend to be full of it.

 

[Pincho Paxton]

I point out incorrectness when it's presented.
And your posts tend to be full of it.

You can't correct this, you don't understand it....
I do know conciousness, I worked up from Quantum Physics, and conciousness is very early in the Quantum Scale so you get to it quite quickly as a propagator. What takes time is to build the biological pressure system. But the physics are basic time, and flow. Nothing new in terms of the Universe.

You read something that doesn't make sense to you. You are in no position to post.. wrong.

 

[Dywyddyr]

You can't correct this, you don't understand it....

Assumption.

I do know conciousness

Nope. But feel free to persist in making claims with no support.

I worked up from Quantum Physics

Considering that you don't know quantum physics, I doubt it.

and conciousness is very early in the Quantum Scale so you get to it quite quickly as a propagator.

Word salad.

What takes time is to build the biological pressure system. But the physics are basic time, and flow.

Bullshit.

You read something that doesn't make sense to you. You are in no position to post.. wrong.

Incorrect. I read something that doesn't make sense FULL STOP.