Why do theists associate with non-theists?

Well I'm a science Athiest, and Dywyddyr is a science theist.. so that's how.
But your posts are not on topic - or? - even if the event of your presences can be connected to it by others.

But then since you think this is an answer perhaps some theists enjoy not being the atheist, and need the atheist to fully experience this. This pattern may very well cut both ways.
 
Some readers here seem to overlook the point that the punishment occurs in the afterlife. Those readers who don't believe in the afterlife, believe they are looking forward to a dirt nap anyway.

Still maitaining that old false dichotomy, eh?


The point of the master-slave parable is, if a person claims to be a Christian, then s/he had better toe the line or there will be hell to pay ... literally. By becoming a Christian, a person puts him/herself in servitude to Christ. Being a Christian is more than being someone's employee or servant. You surrender your life to Christ, as believers of other faiths also do to their gods and/or principles.

If only there wouldn't be so much latitude in what "surrender your life to Christ" means!


The degree of servitude reminds me of the 1993 movie "The Remains of the Day" starring Anthony Hopkins as an extremely faithful butler James Stevens in service to his master far above and beyond being an employee or servant.

Do you remember the scene where a group of German and British aristocrats and other important figures were plotting against England, in the villa where Stevens served - and one of them asked Stevens about his opinion on a heavy matter, and Stevens said he had none?

Stevens could have made the Nazi invasion much more difficult, perhaps even prevent it, he knew inside information - and he didn't report to the authorities.

He also kept to himself reading romance novels. He rejected the friendliness - and more - of the housekeeper (played by Emma Thompson).

He neglected his own dying father so that he could attend to his butler duty of polishing silver.


And to call this a "good servant" - someone without a conscience?!



Take 10 minutes to read the secular essay "A Message to Garcia" (1899), which you can find at many websites. In it, the author Elbert Hubbard basically says, if an employer pays your wages, then do as he asks, work for him, don't shirk, don't make excuses, don't grumble, and don't bad-mouth him behind his back ---- or you'll find yourself out of work (no mystery there).

Being payed a wage outweighs all moral concerns one might have about one's employer?
 
Hmm, possibly.
Still doesn't answer the second question of mine though.
Is science looking for existential meaning?

Science isn't looking for existential meaning. It's searching for truth about the observable universe via application of the scientific method. People, at least some people, use the findings of science to augment their own search for existential meaning.
 
But your posts are not on topic - or? - even if the event of your presences can be connected to it by others.

But then since you think this is an answer perhaps some theists enjoy not being the atheist, and need the atheist to fully experience this. This pattern may very well cut both ways.



Are we not all human , should we not associate with each other , even some are bastards but they are my fellow men , We need each skills we need each others help.
It would be stupid of me or of us not to associate with my fellow pagans .
 
Why would "you" try to teach the answers to life lessons when you know them not?

When you believe the lessons you teach are more helpful than what experience a person should learn for themselves...

Maybe only when someone idolizes an individual other than themselves should we pay even the slightest attention. Maybe that is the only time we do.

Philosophy is the root of all evil. Our constant feuds wreak with inherent savagery burdening our innermost thoughts.

Do we not realize that what we make with our minds is inherently true in time. Perhaps it is time for all civilizations to learn a simple lesson.
 
IDK about where you are but in the US (at least where I am) religion doesn't exactly come up much. In fact I have no clue on the religious orientation of most of my friends. It doesn't effect our relationship unless we were going to go to church together or something. Then again most people that I am willing to hang out with don't define themselves by their religion.

My experience has been exactly the same.
 
Since I'm brand new to the forums, thought I'd weigh in.

Hi Gandalf, welcome to Sciforums.

My preference is to spend time with intelligent people, regardless of their faith or lack thereof. If they will respect my faith, I'll more than happily respect theirs.

I find that I form my deepest friendships with intelligent people. It's our conversations that kind of cement the relationship. Some difference of opinion isn't necessarily a bad thing either, we have to have something to say to one another that's more engaging than 'I agree'.

I'm a pastor, and actually, I'd RATHER spend time with an intelligent atheist any day than a narrow-minded parishioner, no matter how devout they might be.

I'm a religious agnostic with Theravadan Buddhist tendencies. But I don't have any requirement that my friends all believe just as I do. (How could I? My own views and practices are fluid, a continual work in progress.)

I think that the requirement for compatibility is more like open-mindedness, the willingness to accept that multiple paths and approaches exist in philosophy and religion. While we may have chosen one of them as our own and may indeed be very committed to it, and perhaps might even be devoting our lives to it, there's always going to be a chance (however small it is) that we are wrong and the other person is right.

So I'm willing to listen to just about anyone, provided that they are willing to talk to me interactively in a friendly manner and not just preach at me one-way. If the person's ideas seem kind of dumb and not of very much interest, I'll very gently try to move the conversation away from religion towrds some secular common interest. If the person's religious ideas are interesting and thought provoking, then I'll pursue the religion conversation with great pleasure. It might seem paradoxical, but sometimes friendships can arise out of differences.

I guess that the way I see it, when it comes to the transcendent (if there is such a thing) we are all of us seekers. That's our human condition. We are all peering into the impenetrable fog of the unknown with our feeble little flashlights, trying to get some small sense of things.

I love discussing evolution (natural selection for me, with God in the background tweaking the genetic code every now and again), cosmology (Big Bang unless evidence begins to move away from this), political theory, and other cool topics. That isn't always easy for me among the very religious (in some circles, at least).

It sounds like you might be a good addition here at Sciforums.

Many religious people seem incapable of interacting on any equal footing with an atheist or other non-believer. When some do interact, it's not authentic, because the religious person wants to convert the atheist from their "wrong" way of thinking.

I've met a few 'evangelicals' like that. They came on syrupy sweet, affecting a cloying sort of feigned "love" despite the fact that I was virtually a complete stranger. (A 'lost soul', I guess.) When it became clear that I'd studied religion in university and already had a non-Christian path of my own, all the "love" suddenly turned to stony hardness and they began trying to keep their children away from me.

It didn't bother me very much, since I don't think that I could have become good friends with somebody like that anyway. Keeping our distance was probably the best thing for both of us.

That's been very unusual though. I can count the times that it's happened in my life on one hand. Most evangelicals and fundamentalists that I meet aren't fake-love trap-door spiders. They are people that I can get along with perfectly fine provided that we both agree not to talk to the other about religion. I have quite a few acquaintances like that. I may not become the closest of friends with them though, since they aren't the kind of person I can fully confide in.

The good news is that there are as many types of Christians and other spiritual seekers as there are any other group, and some I've found are really open and welcoming of people from any background or viewpoint.

Yes, definitely. I have to say that some of the most spiritual and humane people that I've met in my lifetime have been Christians. Christianity does seem to work as a spiritual path for some people at least. (Perhaps every religion works as a path for some people.) Some of the most intelligent have been Christians too. (My thesis advisor in graduate school was a former Catholic priest with a doctorate in sacred theology from Georgetown no less.) I have some fondness for the Christian contemplative traditions.

You will probably discover, if you haven't already, that many atheists are as prone to characturizing Christians as Christians are to stereotyping atheists. Atheists often believe, and some will argue very loudly and strenuously, that the only "true" Christian is a Protestant fundamentalist, a believer in full Biblical literalism and inerrancy. (You haven't lived until a discussion board full of atheists has lectured you on what "true" Christianity is and must be.) It seems that there are atheist fundamentalists, just as there are religious fundamentalists.
 
I'm a religious agnostic with Theravadan Buddhist tendencies.

You will need to explain this, please!

I already know you are agnostic and with Theravadan Buddhist tendencies. But so far, you have never described yourself as "religious."
What do you mean by describing yourself as "religious"?
 
Since I'm brand new to the forums, thought I'd weigh in. My preference is to spend time with intelligent people, regardless of their faith or lack thereof.

What do you understand by "intelligent"?


If they will respect my faith, I'll more than happily respect theirs.

In that order?


Many religious people seem incapable of interacting on any equal footing with an atheist or other non-believer.

I suggest you start a thread on this.
I do not think such equal footing even exists - other than by relativizing one's own position to the point that it is trivial.


The good news is that there are as many types of Christians and other spiritual seekers as there are any other group, and some I've found are really open and welcoming of people from any background or viewpoint.

What do you think is the reason why some people are so open?


In my experience, love and care for others is the truest expression of God's life within the life of the world. I'd rather show others some kindness and some respect for their opinions, than try to convert them or get them to say the "right words" or "pray" some magical prayer that will supposedly make them okie dokey with the "Big Guy Upstairs". To me, that view is nonsense and I'd rather just try to live out my faith quietly, trying to do good. At lease, that's my take on the whole thiest/atheist dance.

Are you of a Protestant denomination?
Is the church in which you are a pastor, of a Protestant denomination?
 
But apparently Jesus did not. He said he was supporting the Law, which included slavery and he used a parable assuming the rightness of masters beating slaves in certain contexts.

Why not just be straightforward and acknowledge that some people get angry and want living punching bags?
 
But why does it try to explain those phenomena?


If not to find an over-arching "existential meaning"?

Curiosity. Seriously, sometimes it's just that simple. Other times it's about the possible technological applications, or the prestige associated with making an important discovery.

The extent to which a person might seek to apply scientific knowledge to the ultimate philosophical question is generally proportional to the importance that a person assigns to exploring that question. Some people are happy to put it on the back burner and simply go about their business.
 
But why does it try to explain those phenomena?
Because they're there.
And can (hopefully) be answered.

If not to find an over-arching "existential meaning"?
Maybe one day, when we've answered all the little questions.
But the things that can be answered can be, to a large extent, "isolated" and answered.
What would you have to look at and establish to answer the question of existential meaning?
How many variables?
 
@Gandalf --

I've been meaning to ask you, you say that you'll happily respect the faith of others if they respect yours(setting aside just how un-christ-like that is), but will you respect a person's lack of faith as well?
 
Because they're there.

So?


Maybe one day, when we've answered all the little questions.
But the things that can be answered can be, to a large extent, "isolated" and answered.

To what end?


What would you have to look at and establish to answer the question of existential meaning?
How many variables?

I have no idea.

Moral issues seem simultaneously unprovable yet apparently decidable.
 
Why control?
To reduce the vagaries to which we are subject, I suppose.

They are disputable, sure, but also decidable. Without much or any proof, we can decide whether something is right or wrong.
For example, we believe that stealing is wrong. But we have no proof for that.
Perfect illustration of my rather flippant point. Yep, we can decide, but there'll usually be someone who dispute that decision. E.g. thieves in this case.
 
@Signal --

A better statement would have been that most moral issues seem to be currently unprovable, there's no reason to think that it will stay that way, that's certainly not what history shows. If history is any guide then we'll soon be discovering things that remove the ambiguity from many moral issues.

There's also the problem that there are currently issues which are dressed up as moral issues but are nothing more than religious dogmatism in disguise. Any "moral issue" concerning something like pot or pornography is among them. Clearing away that sort of clutter would go a long way to helping us discern any moral truths that may be out there.

The way I tend to look at it is that morality is subjective to the end goal you desire to accomplish. If you desire to be a good muslim then the tenets of islam are moral for you, if you desire to reduce the amount of human suffering in the world then they demonstrably are not. I also tend to see suffering as the ultimate indicator of the morality of our actions, as do most others(whether consciously or not), in that we know that things like torture and murder cause people(not just those it's being inflicted on) to suffer immensely. It is this reason, not because some deity says so, that I consider such things immoral. But again, it's all dependent on your overall goal.
 
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