Who believes and who doesn't?

[looking_forward]

just out of curiosity though, haven't you ever given any thought to why so many things on this planet almost seems to be geared to supporting life?

I always see this argument from theists and i am sick of it because it is so ridiculously illogical. Rickie, you and many others are confusing cause and effect here. You observe how our environment seems so perfectly engineered to support life that it must have been designed by a god. You think humans were made and then the environment was formed to be habitable by humans.
While this observation is true, your conclusiuon is wrong. The environment is not perfect for us, we are perfect for the environment. There are millions of otehr planets, and most of them can not support life, but since Earth can support life, life developed. Life developed to match the environment, not the other way around.
And for that matter, who is to say that the Earth is perfectly adaptable by us, and you must realize that adaptable is a relative term. There are underwater volcanoes and vents where the water is nearly poison and temperatures are way in excess of boiling, yet life thrives here. This shows that different creatures learn to take advantage of their environment and adapt to it. The organisms here fit perfectly in their environment because they can withstand the poisonous water and extreme heat. Did god make the water there really hot and poisonous so that these creatures would fit in? If you say yes, that is absurd, the water was hot there, so the creatures developed adaptatios to live there.
This is all natural selection or microevolution, which has been proved to happen, the only doubt remains whether the small changes of microevolution can combine to effect the kind of massive changes in macroevolution, but this is hardly a doubt since it is the most logical answer.

 

[euphrosene]

.. it must have been designed by a god.

Depends how you define god or God.

your conclusiuon is wrong.

And yours is right, presumably? That is not meant to back either statement, just to point out that being 'right' is never conclusive as knowledge expands.

There are millions of otehr planets, and most of them can not support life,

'life'... also a matter of definition. This appears to read from the point of view of human life or known lifeforms.

 

[(Q)]

Yes it does, if you go far enough back into any religion.

e.g. Hinduism is generally considered as a polytheistic religion

But if you examine the core of Hinduism, i.e. the Vedas, The Rig Veda says:

ekam sat viprā bahudhā vadanti
Truth is One, but sages call it by many names

That is another of your strawman arguments. There is no single message, it is a variety of different messages clashing with one another, for the most part, hence there is NO ONE GOD.

 

[thedevilsreject]

i remain unconvinced that there is any supernatural being

 

[S.A.M.]

That is another of your strawman arguments. There is no single message, it is a variety of different messages clashing with one another, for the most part, hence there is NO ONE GOD.

I say that it is the same message interpreted variously.

 

[(Q)]

I say that it is the same message interpreted variously.

Then, if interpreted variously, it is utterly useless to those who would wish to find the correct interpretation.

And if interpreted variously, the god in question failed miserably in his communication of a single message.

Hence, the Islamic version is incorrect if any one of a million or so interpretations is correct, or none at all.

Clearly, the Islamic version can be immediately discounted as it condones fighting and killing other humans. No god would ever place such tenets in his message if all of his creations were actually HIS creations.

 

[S.A.M.]

Then, if interpreted variously, it is utterly useless to those who would wish to find the correct interpretation.

Perhaps there are reasons they can be interpreted variously?

And if interpreted variously, the god in question failed miserably in his communication of a single message.

Depends on how you define or measure the outcome.

Hence, the Islamic version is incorrect if any one of a million or so interpretations is correct, or none at all.

Not if reason and motivation are primary considerations.

Clearly, the Islamic version can be immediately discounted as it condones fighting and killing other humans. No god would ever place such tenets in his message if all of his creations were actually HIS creations.

It's interesting how an interpretation can vary with the underlying motivation, isn't it?

Anyway, you're an atheist. You don't believe in God, remember ? So there is no reason to get worked up about the different interpretations, because they do not matter for you.

 

[(Q)]

Perhaps there are reasons they can be interpreted variously?

Reasons like, misinterpretation, confusion, intolerance, prejudice, discrimination, war? Good reasons, Sam. What do you opine?

Depends on how you define or measure the outcome.

The outcome has been measured; misinterpretation, confusion, intolerance, etc.

Not if reason and motivation are primary considerations.

Quantify? Reason for what, motivation for what?

It's interesting how an interpretation can vary with the underlying motivation, isn't it?

Anyway, you're an atheist. You don't believe in God, remember ? So there is no reason to get worked up about the different interpretations, because they do not matter for you.

And of course, those misinterpretations haven't mattered to the millions of people killed in the name of religion, yours included. And it matters not to the people currently being persecuted, oppressed and killed in the name of religion, yours included.

No, to you it matters not, your god can beat up everyone else's god, and that's all that matters to you, and every other theist. You could care less if all this occurs while you blindly go on worshipping your god who condones the fighting, the intolerance, the oppression and the persecution.

Of course, it gets tougher every day to wash the blood from your hands.

 

[S.A.M.]

Reasons like, misinterpretation, confusion, intolerance, prejudice, discrimination, war? Good reasons, Sam. What do you opine?

I was thinking more about avoiding moral absolutes and a degree of choice to reflect motivation.

The outcome has been measured; misinterpretation, confusion, intolerance, etc.

By whom? Aren't you the one going on about free will and moral absolutes?
Everything has a price, sweetie.

Quantify? Reason for what, motivation for what?

Reason as to faith and motivation to follow through.

And of course, those misinterpretations haven't mattered to the millions of people killed in the name of religion, yours included. And it matters not to the people currently being persecuted, oppressed and killed in the name of religion, yours included.

But is it truly religion they are dying/being killed for?

No, to you it matters not, your god can beat up everyone else's god, and that's all that matters to you, and every other theist. You could care less if all this occurs while you blindly go on worshipping your god who condones the fighting, the intolerance, the oppression and the persecution.

Of course, it gets tougher every day to wash the blood from your hands.

So now I'm responsible for all the violence?

 

[(Q)]

I was thinking more about avoiding moral absolutes and a degree of choice to reflect motivation.

That might be a single message, but not one shared by all religions, hence the problem with the concept of ONE god. One moral absolute from your religion contradicts another religion. Where's ONE god when you need him?

By whom? Aren't you the one going on about free will and moral absolutes?
Everything has a price, sweetie.

Uh, look around you, toots. Measurements were done by history. The price of religion is far too high, especially when there is no return on the investment, at least, none anyone can demonstrate.

Reason as to faith and motivation to follow through.

That makes no sense and sounds like a cop-out.

But is it truly religion they are dying/being killed for?

Directly and indirectly, yes. You should know that.

So now I'm responsible for all the violence?

By propagating your religion and condoning all that is wrong with it, you are part of the problem. I certainly haven't noticed that you're part of the solution, which is to simple eradicate those ideologies before they destroy mankind once and for all.

I wonder what Earth's headstone would read?

They Killed Each Other For Him

 

[S.A.M.]

That might be a single message, but not one shared by all religions, hence the problem with the concept of ONE god. One moral absolute from your religion contradicts another religion. Where's ONE god when you need him?

You seem bitter; do you think God should assume responsibility for people?

Uh, look around you, toots. Measurements were done by history. The price of religion is far too high, especially when there is no return on the investment, at least, none anyone can demonstrate.

So if there was no religion, domestic violence, child abuse, homicide (which btw are the top causes of death by violence, more than armed struggles for any reason) would disappear? No one would fight for oil or other resources?

That makes no sense and sounds like a cop-out.

It would involve propaganda, which I am striving to avoid.
To cut it short, if there were two ways of looking at one thing, why would people consistently choose the way that causes pain or war? Rather than the way that would result in peace? Are they interpreting the scriptures selflessly? Or are they using them to feel vindicated in their choices? What does that say about their faith or their belief in God? And what does that say about their motives?

Directly and indirectly, yes. You should know that.

No you claim to know that. I don't.

By propagating your religion and condoning all that is wrong with it, you are part of the problem. I certainly haven't noticed that you're part of the solution, which is to simple eradicate those ideologies before they destroy mankind once and for all.

You have to prove to me that eradicating these ideologies will not be even more harmful.

I wonder what Earth's headstone would read?

Nice touch, but I'm a hard hearted theist, remember?

 

[sderenzi]

God is worthless as a religious icon. In truth medicore minds create things which they wish existed but do not. I wish a planet where only sexy, horney woman lived was real, but that is not so. Better to worship that then Jesus!

 

[S.A.M.]

Honey you can't even get laid on this planet.

 

[Chiraque]

I don't believe in a god per say, but neither do I believe that I could just "end;" that nothing but an empty vessel would be left of me when I died. Maybe whatever comes after isn't a conscious state, but rather some kind of universal force that binds everything. Your energy returns to it when you die. I just realized I'm a Jedi.

 

[Gabriel Goodman]

You know I believe.

I have brought no memories in to this incarnation; there fore, I cannot judge your sins of the past.
that is key.

I am forced to judge in the moment.
Those who are perfected are within me.
Those who still sin are being judged now.
All had better listen.
There is a moment coming and even, now is, where there will be no more forgiveness of sin.

Sin can be defined as any action, word, or even thought, which does not please ME.
I AM the Living Father. The Living One, who lives in all things.

 

[Gabriel Goodman]

see YHVH on myspace.com
I'm stabbed in the back, knife is being twisted, and I AM stiil writing rhymes!

(HOLY ONES) What the hell are you doing!?
time is now, and soon is gone.
launch my word, so I can rock on.
evoke, invoke, send the reapers.
before I anger and close my peeepers!

EXCERPT FROM MY FIRST SCRIBE WHO I AM, ENOCH
The Holy Great One will come forth from His dwelling,
4 And the eternal God will tread upon the earth, (even) on Mount Sinai,
[And appear from His camp]
And appear in the strength of His might from the heaven of heavens.
5 And all shall be smitten with fear
And the Watchers shall quake,
And great fear and trembling shall seize them unto the ends of the earth.
6 And the high mountains shall be shaken,
And the high hills shall be made low,
And shall melt like wax before the flame
7 And the earth shall be wholly rent in sunder,
And all that is upon the earth shall perish,
And there shall be a judgement upon all (men).
8 But with the righteous He will make peace.
And will protect the elect,
And mercy shall be upon them.
9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
To execute judgement upon all,
And to destroy all the ungodly:
And to convict all flesh
Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,
And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.
4 But ye -ye have not been steadfast, nor done the commandments of the Lord,
But ye have turned away and spoken proud and hard words
With your impure mouths against His greatness.
Oh, ye hard-hearted, ye shall find no peace.
5 Therefore shall ye execrate your days,
And the years of your life shall perish,
And the years of your destruction shall be multiplied in eternal execration,
And ye shall find no mercy.
6a In those days ye shall make your names an eternal execration unto all the righteous,
b And by you shall all who curse, curse,
And all the sinners and godless shall imprecate by you,
7c And for you the godless there shall be a curse.
6d And all the . . . shall rejoice,
e And there shall be forgiveness of sins,
f And every mercy and peace and forbearance:
g There shall be salvation unto them, a goodly light.
I And for all of you sinners there shall be no salvation,
j But on you all shall abide a curse.
7a But for the elect there shall be light and joy and peace,
b And they shall inherit the earth.
8 And then there shall be bestowed upon the elect wisdom,
And they shall all live and never again sin,
Either through ungodliness or through pride:
But they who are wise shall be humble.
9 And they shall not again transgress,
Nor shall they sin all the days of their life,
Nor shall they die of (the divine) anger or wrath,
But they shall complete the number of the days of their life.
And their lives shall be increased in peace,
And the years of their joy shall be multiplied,
In eternal gladness and peace,
All the days of their life.
. [Chapter 108] 1 Another book which Enoch wrote for his son Methuselah and for those who will come after him, 2 and keep the law in the last days. Ye who have done good shall wait for those days till an end is made of those who work evil; and an end of the might of the transgressors. And wait ye indeed till sin has passed away,
for their names shall be blotted out of the book of life and out of the holy books, and their seed shall be destroyed for ever, and their spirits shall be slain, and they shall cry and make lamentation in a place that is a chaotic wilderness, and in the fire shall they burn; for there is no earth there. And I saw there something like an invisible cloud; for by reason of its depth I could not look over, and I saw a flame of fire blazing brightly, and things like shining 5 mountains circling and sweeping to and fro. And I asked one of the holy angels who was with me and said unto him: ' What is this shining thing? for it is not a heaven but only the flame of a blazing 6 fire, and the voice of weeping and crying and lamentation and strong pain.' And he said unto me: ' This place which thou seest-here are cast the spirits of sinners and blasphemers, and of those who work wickedness, and of those who pervert everything that the Lord hath spoken through the mouth 7 of the prophets-(even) the things that shall be. For some of them are written and inscribed above in the heaven, in order that the angels may read them and know that which shall befall the sinners,
and the spirits of the humble, and of those who have afflicted their bodies, and been recompensed 8 by God; and of those who have been put to shame by wicked men: Who love God and loved neither gold nor silver nor any of the good things which are in the world, but gave over their bodies to torture. Who, since they came into being, longed not after earthly food, but regarded everything as a passing breath, and lived accordingly, and the Lord tried them much, and their spirits were 10 found pure so that they should bless His name. And all the blessings destined for them I have recounted in the books. And he hath assigned them their recompense, because they have been found to be such as loved heaven more than their life in the world, and though they were trodden under foot of wicked men, and experienced abuse and reviling from them and were put to shame, 11 yet they blessed Me. And now I will summon the spirits of the good who belong to the generation of light, and I will transform those who were born in darkness, who in the flesh were not recompensed 12 with such honour as their faithfulness deserved. And I will bring forth in shining light those who 13 have loved My holy name, and I will seat each on the throne of his honour. And they shall be resplendent for times without number; for righteousness is the judgement of God; for to the faithful 14 He will give faithfulness in the habitation of upright paths.
And they shall see those who were , 15 born in darkness led into darkness, while the righteous shall be resplendent. And the sinners shall cry aloud and see them resplendent, and they indeed will go where days and seasons are prescribed for them.'

Scanned and Edited by
Joshua Williams
Northwest Nazarene College, 1995

 

[(Q)]

Northwest Nazarene College

I do wish theists would stop claiming their institutions are places of higher learning.

college: an institution of higher education created to educate and grant degrees; often a part of a university.

 

[Ogmios]

I don't believe really..

I KNOW!

(assuming supernatural doesn't mean "contradicts with the laws of physics")

 

[Poor_girl]

Why cling to some saintly noble premise with either blindness or wavering strength when you can just dive into fun and pleasure? You deists are avoiding the thoughts that rebel and adhering something others believe in so that you're not alone. You are forcibly designed to adapt to these conventional notions, myths, falsehoods sadly because you are born into that religion. The single greatest cause of Atheism in the world today is Christians. They acknowledge Jesus with their lips, walk out the door and get on with a Godless lifestyle. No one really believes in God, no one really has faith. True faith only begins when you erase doubt, everyone is doubtful because everything is based on human assumptions. No one would be committing numerous, consistent sinful activities if they knew for sure that there was really a God overlooking us, no one would persistently challenge their own religious beliefs if they believed in the existence of Hell because what could be worse than eternal damnation in Hell? People naturally like to claim a religion either because they are scared or raised that way. It’s easy to say a God exists, but do you really believe?

 

[Light Travelling]

Nothing supernatural whatsoever... .

And if God is part of nature, or nature itseld (per Hindu theology) does that make god nothing supernatural whatsoever.