Who believes and who doesn't?

Who believes and who doesn't?

  • You hold a firm belief in a supernatural presence or universal structure of some type

    Votes: 40 32.0%
  • You hold no beliefs in the supernatural

    Votes: 69 55.2%
  • You are unsure of where you stand on these issues

    Votes: 16 12.8%

  • Total voters
    125
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falcon22

karma??!!! Karma doesn't fucking exist. If it did, slaveowners a hundred years ago would have gotten what they deserved.

What makes you think that a person who performs sinful activity doesn't receive a reaction for it?


But no, they didn't.

How do youknow that they didn't?


Some of our most revered men (i.e. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson) were slaveowners that ruined lives. Where was karma for them? Nowhere.

Is it necessary that a person who performs a sinful reaction to receive an immediate reaction for it?

I admit maybe God does have his own system of justice, but did he have to create diseases, plagues, earthquakes, hurricanes, tsunamis that merely destroy lives without any reason? Hmm?

Its ironic that you can't conceive of a person receiving a sinful reaction after the completion of their corporeal existence and that you also struggle to determine why bad things happen to apparently good people
 
Oh right. The man-ruining-environment-leading-to-shit argument. You know, leprosy and such still existed before men started ruining the environment.

The environment was just one of a number of reasons I gave, the main ones being the effects of humanities negative energy, transmitted through thoughts, emotion, words and actions.


Cold virus was there all on its own

No it wasn’t, first there were humans, then came the cold virus..

Bacteria and viruses mutate and evolve the same way as other organisms. What makes them mutate is the effects of their environment, the single greatest effect on their environment being humanity, therefore we are responsible for their developments.

karma??!!! Karma doesn't fucking exist. .

Karma is basically the fruits of action or the results that arise from actions. How can you say karma does not exist? How can you say that results do not occur from actions.. take a proper look around you and you can see that they do.

And what I am talking about here is largely world karma…. What we sow we shall reap, as individuals and also as humanity and as a planet.

If it did, slaveowners a hundred years ago would have gotten what they deserved. But no, they didn't.

As LG has said – noone said the fruits of ones actions have to be received in this lifetime.

Whether one believes in rebirth, transmigration or continued spiritual existence after death there is plenty of opportunity for punishment and reward. If you don’t want to believe in anything spiritual, fine. But then you cant blame god either.
 
Now you don’t believe that these subtle energies can have such an effect on the biology of humans and the environment of the planet? well I can assure you it does. A simple experiment that might help you believe; take two plants same size and species, place them in same containers in different rooms, water and feed them the same with same sunlight exposure. Now spend some time every day with one plant, think loving thought and talk kindly to it; with the other plants spend the same time thinking how much you hate it and talk to it accordingly. After a few months of this you will see one plant thrive and the other become sick (this will only work if you really feel and express the love and anger not just go through the motions). Now how do you explain this phenomena if thoughts cannot affect the external world.

I will take you up on the task, although I should ask a few questions first:

1) Can I do this with a tree? (It saves me having to personally water it etc). I shall shout obscenities at one oak tree and hug the other if that's ok with you.

2) Can you assure me that doing so will not cause a hurricane?

3) Out of interest, do you have any viable papers on scientific studies done concerning this? Unfortunately I couldn't find anything on New Scientist, and it would be handy to see if there is data out there - especially as you went to such length as to "assure me it does".

Now my original statement was in refutation of Falcons claim that God did all these things, now I am sure you agree with me that god did not do these things.

Your certainty is in error. Why would god not do all these things? If we were to stick to biblical facts we would see that this god created everything. Unfortunately that also includes pubic lice, cancer and those curious South American catfish that swim up the end of your penis. It includes bot flys that lay their eggs inside you - the larvae of which then proceed to eat you inside out. He is responsible for all - from malaria giving mosquitos, (and the malaria), to bladder worms.

As for environmental issues, we already know he has a big hand in it - the bible is packed full of god caused earthquakes, floods and plagues of man. You think because he hasn't written a book in a while that he is no longer an active god?

I would of course, as a man of science, be willing to say that it is all natural - sure.. This would include the "ten plagues". Clearly no god caused any of that, the water turning red was because of pfisteria, (and we know quite well that these ancient people could not have diagnosed pfisteria), and the resultant plagues were generally a result of that, (the mass of dead fish and polluted water would have led to a mass land exodus of frogs - the mass death of these frogs would have then led to many germs, diseases and other creatures {gnats and the like}).

In that instance, sure.. I would agree. However, it seems that you will only accept half, (god caused all the biblical plagues and whatnot, but everything else after is our fault). That's rather naive.

AIDS and cancer and other virus are caused by genetic mutations of course…… but what causes these mutations; what is the trigger. The reasons above are the cause of these diseases.

Would you then say that the monkey equivalent, (SIV), comes from monkeys being angry at each other? Or that the fungus currently killing off frogs in their thousands is because of the frogs anger and emotions? That's what you're saying here.. just replace frog with human.
 
Ahh sarcasm....... how humourous :rolleyes:


I will take you up on the task, although I should ask a few questions first:

1) Can I do this with a tree? (It saves me having to personally water it etc). I shall shout obscenities at one oak tree and hug the other if that's ok with you..

No its not OK with me .. do the experiment with a plant, if the experiement was with a tree I would have said "shout at a tree"

Whats your problem with watering a plant anyway... are you saying you haven't got one single live plant in your house... how sad.

2) Can you assure me that doing so will not cause a hurricane?.

pretty much.

3) Out of interest, do you have any viable papers on scientific studies done concerning this? Unfortunately I couldn't find anything on New Scientist, and it would be handy to see if there is data out there - especially as you went to such length as to "assure me it does"..

Why rely on second hand knowledge, when you can prove the experiment for yourself.

Jees, you guys are so bent on objectively verified evidence that your afraid to even take a shit unless some scientific journal can verify that it is OK.

Do the experiment seriously..... see what you get... . You will know because you have done it. Or dont you trust your own eyes (oh yea sorry that would be subjective - big no no.)


You think because he hasn't written a book in a while that he is no longer an active god? .

So now you believe in God. wow ... (oh sorry I forgot your being sarcastic on this one.) :rolleyes:


Your certainty is in error. Why would god not do all these things? If we were to stick to biblical facts we would see that this god created everything.
.

What is it with you and the bible... I havn't quoted the bible and I am not a christian.


I would of course, as a man of science, be willing to say that it is all natural - sure.. This would include the "ten plagues". .

Again with the bible fixation. I mean I am talking about karma and rebriths here and you come back with the bible ????


In that instance, sure.. I would agree. However, it seems that you will only accept half, (god caused all the biblical plagues and whatnot, but everything else after is our fault). That's rather naive..

I accept nothing of the kind, any plagues are caused by man. You want to quote the old testament go ahead... leave me out of it


Would you then say that the monkey equivalent, (SIV), comes from monkeys being angry at each other? Or that the fungus currently killing off frogs in their thousands is because of the frogs anger and emotions? That's what you're saying here.. just replace frog with human.

I never said human energies only affect humans. Negative behaviour affects everything on the planet as does positive.


Anyway, thanks for your interest. I must say though that I expected more from you than half a page of sarcasm.
 
lightgigantic and traveling light, it seems that whenever I talk about unfariness of shit in life in this life, you guys always seem to off on a tangeant about something else after life (i.e. rebirth, heaven, hell...). Such thing requires belief in another spiritual realm.

And alright, for the sake of argument, let's say there is.

That makes God even a more a being to hate. Who gave him the right to judge? Why should he be able to decide if a person who committed a crime in a finite life receive an infinite punishment for eternity or even eternal rebirths back into the world? Why should he be allowed to judge on the basis of our life in this world, when he didn't even give us moral standards or criteria to follow, or if he did, then why not make it available to everyone so eveyone would know the consequences of their actions, why make his instructions absent in North America until 1500s, Africa until early 20th century, most of ASia until early 18th century, and Australia until 1900s? Is such judgment fair? I mean, yeah, you're a murderer in this life, but does that deserve an ETERNAL torment?

And as for karma... google Mobutu. Where was karma for him? he didn't reap what he sowed. he reaped what he didn't sow. On the other spectrum, look up Squanto. He also didn't reap what he sowed. And usually in life, such instances are the norm, not the exception. Stuff like Enron scandal doesn't happen that often.

falcon22
Is it necessary that a person who performs a sinful reaction to receive an immediate reaction for it?
For actual karma to exist, yes. Oh, fuck yes. Otherwise, it's not karma, it's just some judgment far off in the future after your death, after a really good long and prosperous life. But man, admit it, hell probably doesn't exist. If it does, that really proves what kind of sadistic freak God is, creating beings he supposedly loves only to send them hell.

And no, viruses existed first. Single cell organism has existed first. Always. And virus is one form of being that has proven by scientist in 2001 that can be produced from non-life forms the easiest and fastest. It doesn't need human interaction to be made. it needs hosts to propate and spread but for the initial creation, not neccessarily.

As for sinful action or whatever causing problems for humanity... I don't like to use the word sin, but if you're referring to the innate desire of human beings to be just horrible, then yes, you're partly right. People can be made bad, and people can be made good. Hutu Rwandans manipulated to commit genocide against Tutsi Rwandans were made bad and caused millions of innocent people to die and the ending situation caused plagues and diseases and whatnot, but you have to understand hate, racism, bigotry, ethnocentrism are all nothing but social constructs. You can't blame people for being born in that situation. You can blame humanity in general but not those born in those situations.

But beyond that, human actions could not have influenced the planet that enough to cause such great earthquakes and whatnot. Earthquakes, volcanic eruptions have been happening since this world was born, even before humans. LIke I said, why do you think so many species of animals, including dinosaurs, are extinct now? Was that all humans?

let's add in a new question to the argument. If God indeed is part of this world, created it, and takes part in it (answering prayers), then how can you explain the reason why God allowed more than one version of scriptures to be created? And even in singular versions (i.e. Bible, Quaran), his messages are so open to interpretation that so many religious sects and cults form and ultimately wage war against each other? If God was so nice as you say he is, then why make things so ambiguous that human beings kill each other mercilessly for generations and generations? Was God bored and wanted to watch a war movie? Did he think that he was being creative? Explain this for me.
 
No its not OK with me .. do the experiment with a plant, if the experiement was with a tree I would have said "shout at a tree"

Can I ask why I can't do the experiment with a tree?

Whats your problem with watering a plant anyway... are you saying you haven't got one single live plant in your house... how sad.

Woah, wait for the answer. Yes, I have plants - but I tend to find it difficult to truly hate something that I am spending my time looking after. If we want this experiment to work, surely it would be best to make it as unbiased as possible? I have nurtured and watched my plants grow, I don't know if I have it in me to shout obscenities at them - especially if it works and they die because of it.

Can I go round to the neighbours house and shout at his plants?

As a purely irrelevant side comment; whats "sad" about a person not having plants in his house? I know some people that prefer to keep them outside for several reasons, (stops the dog eating them etc). They're not "sad", they're just different to you. Is that ok?

Why rely on second hand knowledge, when you can prove the experiment for yourself.

It's not "relying" on anything. It helps to see the experiments others have conducted to see if you can improve on it, repeat it, try other methods and so on. That's what science does.

Jees, you guys are so bent on objectively verified evidence that your afraid to even take a shit unless some scientific journal can verify that it is OK.

Utter hogwash, (explained above). There's nothing wrong with comparing notes.

So... got any data?

Do the experiment seriously..... see what you get... . You will know because you have done it.

I'll do it seriously, (which is why I asked if I could just do it on a tree). You made the accusation of 'sarcasm', (which sure, there were elements of), but you completely missed the seriousness beneath that. I'll explain it:

1) It is hard to be "serious" in this issue to something that you have spent time caring for.

2) Plants by and large do not have the best 'shelf life' whereas trees generally live for quite a long while. If this experiment could be conducted with a tree, (and you haven't explained why it can't), it's unlikely that you'd make the error of picking a tree close to the end of it's lifespan. Indeed I would find the healthiest looking young tree that I could find and see if, upon shouting obscenities at it, it withers and dies. It is much harder to be certain of a small plants health etc.

Or dont you trust your own eyes (oh yea sorry that would be subjective - big no no.)

It's one of those questions.. the answer to which is a mixture of both yes and no. People should not be too hasty in trusting their own eyes - many mistakes are made that way. The best all round method is peer review.

So now you believe in God. wow ... (oh sorry I forgot your being sarcastic on this one.)

No I don't, but I wasn't specifically being sarcastic. Earlier you mentioned "spiritual & religious literature", which - as I am trying to point out - largely state that god created everything. Everything invariably includes disease, hurricanes and those curious South American catfish that swim up the end of your penis. My question to you was that just because this god hasn't written specifically that he didn't cause the tsunami the other year, does that mean to say that this god is no longer an active god?

What is it with you and the bible... I havn't quoted the bible and I am not a christian.

What is it with me and the bible? Not a lot, and who cares whether you're a christian or not? Do not forget that "rich and varied" collection of religious literature, (of which the bible is one such part), that you mentioned earlier. I used the bible as one such example to pose a different idea as to where those hurricanes and diseases come from - which is not in this instance from people shouting at buddleias. If you think it is then you need to justify it. I am willing to undergo this experiment, but I would like to know if there's any data concerning it and why for some reason I can't use a tree.

I mean I am talking about karma and rebriths here and you come back with the bible ????

What's the problem? Some guy comes along and expresses his dislike for god, to which you tell him he needs to read "religious literature". I mention some "religious literature" and you get all hysterical about it. Make up your mind.

I accept nothing of the kind, any plagues are caused by man.

Fair enough. Sorry but I'd disagree. While man might help spread plague, you'd have to show how man specifically "created" such plague. Use Yersinia pestis as an example if you like.

I never said human energies only affect humans.

Do frog energies affect humans? Do monkey energies affect humans? Or is this just a human thing?

I must say though that I expected more from you than half a page of sarcasm.

I wasn't actually being as sarcastic as you might think I was.
 
... are you saying you haven't got one single live plant in your house... how sad.
I don't have a single live plant in my house.
Are you calling me sad?
Why?
What is "sad" about not having the inclination to look after a plant?
:mad:

Feel free to PM me an apology at this slight at my (good) character! ;)
 
Can I ask why I can't do the experiment with a tree?.


OK get yourself and maybe a couple of hundred other people and you may get enough energy to affect your oak trees. If you all do it every day for a number of months or even years you may see results. I cannot guarantee that though because I have never done it. Give it a try if you want.

I have tried it with plants, which is why I suggest it.



As a purely irrelevant side comment; whats "sad" about a person not having plants in his house? .

Nothing sad about the person, it is the situation that is sad. Plants bring energy into the home, they bring nature into the home. It is a positive inluence.


It's not "relying" on anything. It helps to see the experiments others have conducted to see if you can improve on it, repeat it, try other methods and so on. That's what science does..

No, science is not only repeating experiments that have been done previously, it is also conducting new experiments that have not been done before.


2) Plants by and large do not have the best 'shelf life' whereas trees generally live for quite a long while. If this experiment could be conducted with a tree, (and you haven't explained why it can't), it's unlikely that you'd make the error of picking a tree close to the end of it's lifespan. ?.

False, its not difficult to find two young plants... as someone who cares for so many plants and loves them so passionately you should know how to do this.

It's one of those questions.. the answer to which is a mixture of both yes and no. People should not be too hasty in trusting their own eyes - many mistakes are made that way. The best all round method is peer review..


Mistakes are also made by people you refuse to tust their own eyes.

No I don't, but I wasn't specifically being sarcastic. Earlier you mentioned "spiritual & religious literature", which - as I am trying to point out - largely state that god created everything. Everything invariably includes disease, hurricanes and those curious South American catfish that swim up the end of your penis. My question to you was that just because this god hasn't written specifically that he didn't cause the tsunami the other year, does that mean to say that this god is no longer an active god?.


Well if you have read my earlier posts on this thread you will see that I am talking about a god that is nature i.e. a pantheistic god. So no, god is never inactive but neither is god doing anything.

What is it with me and the bible? Not a lot, and who cares whether you're a christian or not? Do not forget that "rich and varied" collection of religious literature, (of which the bible is one such part), that you mentioned earlier. I used the bible as one such example to pose a different idea as to where those hurricanes and diseases come from - which is not in this instance from people shouting at buddleias. .

When I metioned "rich and varied" collection of religious and spiritual literature, it was in reply to Falcons post, who was talking about "a christian god" and "if christianity is correct". My suggestion to rich and varied literature was obviously in the context of rich and various literature other than the bible. As Falcon was obviously already aquainted with the bible and was talking about a christian god.

You have though (conveniently) ignored the context in which I said this. If you want to quote the rich and varied literature I suggested go ahead, but you only quote the bible.... nothing wrong with quoting the bible per se, but in the context of mine and faclons posts, why continue doing it over and over.


What's the problem? Some guy comes along and expresses his dislike for god, to which you tell him he needs to read "religious literature". I mention some "religious literature" and you get all hysterical about it. Make up your mind..

See above.... the guy talks of dislike of a christian god (page 6 of this thread) and I suggest there is a rich and varied collection out there (it is surely understood that he is already aquainted with the bible and I was therefore making the suggestion to read 'other' literature).

I am not hysterical, I was asking why you were continuing to use ONLY bible references during this discussion, this would normally occur if you were a christian or I was a christain, the bible would then be a suitable frame of reference for us to discuss religion. As neither of us is, it seems odd that you are using this as your only source. I was pointing this fact out.

It is a bit like us discussing psychology. You state that you follow the thinking of Jung, then for the rest of the discussion I refute various statements of Freud to show that you are wrong in you thinking. When you object I say "well its all psychology" you have to accept it.

Do frog energies affect humans? Do monkey energies affect humans? Or is this just a human thing?.

All beings create and interchange energies - as do plants..

I wasn't actually being as sarcastic as you might think I was.


How do you know how sarcastic I was thinking you were being?
 
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I don't have a single live plant in my house.
Are you calling me sad? ;)

No, as I said above, one thing is the person, another is the situation. I did not call snakelord sad and neither am I calling you sad. I said the situation of a house with no plants is sad.


What is "sad" about not having the inclination to look after a plant?
)

Again nothing wrong with not having the inclination to look after a plant, although I would say that some plants are very high maintenance and need a lot of looking after and some are very low maintenance and hardly need to be touched, so you can still have a plant without really spending time looking after it. It is not about the looking after it is about having something green, natural and organic in your house, (other than the lettuce in the fridge):D .

As I said plants bring energy into the home, they bring nature into the home. It is a positive influence. They also produce oxygen, which I understand to be good for us.


Feel free to PM me an apology at this slight at my (good) character)

If you feel slighted I am happy to give a public apology. But my opinion is still that the situation of a plantless house is a sad one. You of course may disagree and indeed may hold the same view of a ‘planted’ house if you like.
 
OK get yourself and maybe a couple of hundred other people and you may get enough energy to affect your oak trees. If you all do it every day for a number of months or even years you may see results. I cannot guarantee that though because I have never done it. Give it a try if you want.

Ok, we're now talking science. There must be a way for us to measure this 'energy' and show how it affects plants, but not powerful enough to affect trees, (unless many people get together which.. what? balls everyone's energy up in one and then shoots it at the tree? I'm quite unclear of the process so please explain further). Is this energy always coming from us or only when we're angry towards plants? If it's always there, are we unwittingly harming those around us without even wanting to?

I have tried it with plants, which is why I suggest it.

How many times? If just once, will you accept that it's quite possible that you just fluked it? (the plant was about to die anyway etc)? It's a big part of why I would ask for data, (to see how much it has been repeated etc).

Nothing sad about the person, it is the situation that is sad. Plants bring energy into the home, they bring nature into the home. It is a positive inluence.

Most people with legs can get that 'positive influence' by opening the front door.

No, science is not only repeating experiments that have been done previously, it is also conducting new experiments that have not been done before.

I didn't imply that it was "only", but that being able to repeat experiments is an essential part of science. If you're claiming this has never been done before, (other than one attempt by you that led to the death of a plant), where exactly do your statements come from? You mentioned that many people would be needed to affect a tree.. How do you know this? Have you tried with 1 person and then 100? (clearly the answer is no as you said you'd never tried). As such, where does this information come from? Are you just guessing that I can't do it with a tree?

False, its not difficult to find two young plants... as someone who cares for so many plants and loves them so passionately you should know how to do this.

I know how to water plants, sure.. I'm not a plant doctor.

Well if you have read my earlier posts on this thread you will see that I am talking about a god that is nature i.e. a pantheistic god.

So.. nature? Where does the word god fit into it?

You have though (conveniently) ignored the context in which I said this. If you want to quote the rich and varied literature I suggested go ahead, but you only quote the bible.... nothing wrong with quoting the bible per se, but in the context of mine and faclons posts, why continue doing it over and over.

Over and over? I mentioned it twice.. briefly.

I am not hysterical, I was asking why you were continuing to use ONLY bible references during this discussion

I wasn't using "only bible references" specifically, theres an overwhelming number of gods that created everything, (and thus fall into the range of my statement), that cause floods and plagues, (and thus fall into the range of my statement) etc. I used the word "biblical" quite loosely, but the same statements/questions would apply to many of the possible millions.

this would normally occur if you were a christian or I was a christain, the bible would then be a suitable frame of reference for us to discuss religion.

People are discussing gods, (in general of varying different attributes). Must we be ancient Sumerian to talk about Marduk? Must we be ancient Roman to mention Apollo? Imagine if I had have made the earlier statement I did but used Tiamat as the main god. Are you saying I can only bring it up if we're all ancient friggin' Sumerians?

Further to which, feel free to connect my statements to any of millions of possible gods - except for ones that aren't anything more than a replacement for an already existing word that is perfectly adequate.
 
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