Which is more important: Secular or Religious education

Which is more important: Secular or Religous education

  • Secular education

    Votes: 26 92.9%

  • Religious education

    Votes: 2 7.1%
  • Total voters
    28
S.A.M. said:
Maybe we should first define education?

What is education?
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Education is teaching someone something that the person doesn't know.

Like teaching little kids how to use handguns and shoot people that they don't like, ...that's "education".

Baron Max
 
You probably didn't read my post. Their "spirits" are not the same as spirits in the animist world. They believe only in things they can see and touch.

Some details:

While this tribe has been in contact with other Brazilians for two centuries, for some reason they have maintained an extreme degree of linguistic and cultural integrity, remaining monolingual to this day. Significantly, in not just one but all the areas described in this chapter, they exhibit very little of the separation implicit in modern symbolic culture. They do not impose linearity onto time. They do not abstract the specific into the generic through numbering. They do not usually genericize individual human beings through pronouns. They do not freeze time into representation through drawing. They do not reduce the continuum of color to a discrete finitude by naming colors. They have little independent concept of fingers, the basis for number, grasping, and controlling; nor do they use fingers to point.

Most strikingly, the Piraha are unable to count.ii Not only do they have no words for numbers, their language also lacks any quantifiers such as "many", "some", or "all". Even more amazing, they apparently are incapable of even learning to count. Despite eight months of sustained efforts, speech pathologist Peter Gordon failed to teach them, even with the Piraha's enthusiastic cooperation. They cannot mimic a series of knocks because they cannot keep count of how many there have been.iii

The Piraha language is nearly devoid of any sort of abstraction. There is no semantic embedding, as in locutions like "I think she wants to come." ("She wants to come" is a nominalized phrase embedded in "I think [X]"). The lack of nominalized phrases means that words are not abstracted from reality to be conceived as things-in-themselves. Grammar is not an infinitely extendible template that can generate meaning abstractly through mere syntax. Words are only used in concrete reference to objects of direct experience. There are, for example, no myths of any sort in Piraha, nor do the Piraha tell fictional stories. This absence of abstraction also explains the lack of terms for numbers.

Even colors do not exist in the abstract for Piraha. While they are clearly able to discern colors and to use words like "blood" or "dirt" as modifiers to describe colored objects, these words do not refer to any color in the abstract. One cannot say, for example, "I like red things, " or "Do not eat red things in the jungle" in Piraha.iv

Even the very idea of abstract representation is apparently impossible to explain to the Piraha. Everett describes his own attempt:

If one tries to suggest, as we originally did, in a math class, for example, that there is actually a preferred response to a specific question, this is unwelcome and will likely mean changing subjects and/or irritation. As a further example of this, consider the fact that Pirahas will 'write stories' on paper I give them, which are just random marks, then 'read' the stories back to me, i.e. just telling me something random about their day, etc. which they claim to be reading from their marks. They may even make marks on paper and say random Portugeuse numbers, while holding the paper for me to see. They do not understand at all that such symbols should be precise (demonstrated when I ask them about them or ask them to draw a symbol twice, in which case it is never replicated) and consider their 'writing' as exactly the same as the marks that I make. v

Abstraction is also absent from their art. The Piraha do not draw representational figures at all, except for crude stick figures used to explain to the anthropologist the spirit world , of which they claim direct experience. They cannot even draw straight lines. As Everett continues from above, "In literacy classes, however, we were never able to train a Piraha to even draw a straight line without serious 'coaching' and they are never able to repeat the feat in subsequent trials without more coaching." This is highly significant, given that the straight line is itself an abstraction, being absent from nature. It is an abstraction, moreover, fraught with powerful cultural and psychological implications. At the most literal level, the Piraha do not engage in linear thinking.
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http://ascentofhumanity.com/chapter2-7.php
 
And so do primitive animists since they would only believe in the spirits of the natural things that surround them. Again you haven't really answered any of the questions i posed to you. Namely why would they have needed to attain this level of reasoning and belief if they are isolated and have 'maintained an extreme degree of linguistic and cultural integrity'? Also you have not linked the rest of their cultural traits to their belief in spirits or non belief in things they cannot see.

Does the anthropologists make any connection? They seem not to. Also I asked you some other questions can you please respond to the questions in post #66.
 
You fail to read that they have been in contact with Brazilians since two centuries and could not learn numbers even after being taught. I think its fair to say that since they only believe in direct experience unlike all other "primitive" tribes studied so far, they have evolved according to their thinking.

If you think the problems of religious society outweigh the advantages, you are free to choose the way you wish to live in an areligious society. I'm simply stating that its short sighted to think religion does not confer an advantage on human reasoning.
 
Asguard said:
Michael IQ tests have been debunked. They are statistically biased towards white eroupian culture without any scientific basis.
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They were the same tests. So even if there was bias it was controlled for in the experiment.
 
S.A.M. said:
Is this a magical complex word[sic!] that requires no effort on the part of the rest of society? What if the entire society is incapable of complex reasoning? What kind of society do they bequeath their children?



Thats an interesting hypothesis, since it was an evangelical who went there to explore them and lost his faith in the process. Meanwhile, anthropologists and linguists have studied them since then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirahã_people

What is your contentious source? I'd like to read it for myself.

Oh and since you are so hung up on art, here is some Piraha art for you

Everett_cat1.jpg


Everett_tapir2.jpg




do you believe in the Bell Curve hypothesis?
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I think it was a National Geographic article. I'm not 100% sure of your point? The Pirah may have a change in a single protein receptor that makes abstract reasoning difficult? Their culture may be a reflection of their genetics? Maybe their culture down regulates certain proteins? It's really difficult to say at our level of technology exactly what is going on.

What is your hypothesis? Their inability to think abstractly (which I'm not convinced is true) has something to do with being secular or non-religious or athiest? This seems odd considering these people are just as superstitious as you. They also believe in magical fairy creatures.

So I'm not really sure of your point.

Yes, I read about the Missionary there, it was in the article.

The Bell Curve - wasn't there a thread on that book? What hypothesis in it are your referring to?
 
SAM said:
You fail to read that they have been in contact with Brazilians since two centuries and could not learn numbers even after being taught. I think its fair to say that since they only believe in direct experience unlike all other "primitive" tribes studied so far, they have evolved according to their thinking.
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That would be an interesting - and brand new - mechanism for evolution.

SAM said:
If you think the problems of religious society outweigh the advantages, you are free to choose the way you wish to live in an areligious society. I'm simply stating that its short sighted to think religion does not confer an advantage on human reasoning.
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On human reasoning? Not much evidence for, quite a bit against. On human behavior, maybe.
 
S.A.M. said:
You fail to read that they have been in contact with Brazilians since two centuries and could not learn numbers even after being taught. I think its fair to say that since they only believe in direct experience unlike all other "primitive" tribes studied so far, they have evolved according to their thinking.

If you think the problems of religious society outweigh the advantages, you are free to choose the way you wish to live in an areligious society. I'm simply stating that its short sighted to think religion does not confer an advantage on human reasoning.
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Well yes they have had contact but so what? They obviously do not NEED to learn abstract thought in order to survive and thrive in their environment. All you have done is taken the Piraha and fit them into your own assessment of why they are the way they are, there is nothing in what you posted to indicate that one is the outcome of the other.

No Sam I asked you assert that religious education is the cause of accomplishments in civilization I am asking you if you would also agree that it is the cause of civilizations failures? Its funny science takes credit for accomplishing many of the advancements in civilization but it also takes credit for some of its problems (pollution etc). Wonder why the religion cannot do the same?:rolleyes:
 
Cris said:
Education should be concerned with teaching truth and facts.

Deliberately teaching untruths or teaching things that are not known to be true but are portrayed as truth, does a diservice to everyone, and isn't education but indoctrination and dishonesty.
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Why do you see education as some form of indoctrination?.



peace.
 
NiccolòBrioschi said:
OK, I will rephrase... Why should a man learn some lies?
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Well not everyting in religious teaching is a lie or even a bad thing at all, information isnt just something that is straight forward you can learn the same subject in 2 ways good or bad depending on yourself and your teacher.

I agree with 7/10 (roughly) religious morlals, for instance just think about this for awhile before you reply,...

Is it wiser to debate and ponder over the existence of for example "jesus" or instead debate over jesus's Teachings and moral code and the way he lived. It does not matter if he was real or not, aslong as you actualy listen to his teachings and give them a non-Biased rubbuttle or critisizm.

Don't argue over the man argue over his teachings.


Peace.
 
EmptyForceOfChi said:
Well not everyting in religious teaching is a lie or even a bad thing at all, information isnt just something that is straight forward you can learn the same subject in 2 ways good or bad depending on yourself and your teacher.

I agree with 7/10 (roughly) religious morlals, for instance just think about this for awhile before you reply,...

Is it wiser to debate and ponder over the existence of for example "jesus" or instead debate over jesus's Teachings and moral code and the way he lived. It does not matter if he was real or not, aslong as you actualy listen to his teachings and give them a non-Biased rubbuttle or critisizm.

Don't argue over the man argue over his teachings.


Peace.
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I'm denying religion, not moral.
 
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