Which is more important: Secular or Religious education
- Thread starter Michael
- Start date
True. But think of it this way, without religious education would there even be secular education?
Think missionaries, convents and institutions opened/operated by the religious orders [Harvard, Oxford, Princeton, Yale].
Sam that is irrelivent. Would you ride a pennyfathing rather than a moden bike because at the time they were the only bikes avilable?
would live in a bare floor hut like the medievil serfs because thats where housing started?
would accept that everything your taught is in latin making it impossable to even read a street sign because "thats where education started"?
no, religions MAY have started education as a propergander machine for their own adjender but that doesnt mean we cant use them for a GOOD purpose, ie educating people about the things which really DO effect their lives, sex, science (and maths), English (language of home country), critical thinking, basic reasoning skills, politics ect. Ie those things which actually effect peoples lives rather than "gods" which if they exist at all, abdocated there responcabilities 1000's of years ago
would live in a bare floor hut like the medievil serfs because thats where housing started?
would accept that everything your taught is in latin making it impossable to even read a street sign because "thats where education started"?
no, religions MAY have started education as a propergander machine for their own adjender but that doesnt mean we cant use them for a GOOD purpose, ie educating people about the things which really DO effect their lives, sex, science (and maths), English (language of home country), critical thinking, basic reasoning skills, politics ect. Ie those things which actually effect peoples lives rather than "gods" which if they exist at all, abdocated there responcabilities 1000's of years ago
I'm not saying religious education is bad, nor was not the foundation for secular education. However, times have changed; society is more pluralistic and tolerant regarding religion, and the trend is for government to be secular. In modern times, secular education takes priority; its lessons are objective and apply to all (e.g., mathematics is a universal idea that everyone should learn and understand).
Religious education should be optional, not mandatory, because the lessons imparted by it are subjective (e.g., not everyone's a Christian, so Christian eduction should be undertaken by Christians). Individually, religious education might be seen as more important. But from a societal point of view, secular public education is paramount.
I don't see any change. Its still countries based on religion[even so called fundie states] that have the most diverse thinking, while countries with state atheism or where atheism is enforced by restricting religious expression are still relatively monochromatic.
The fact that the history of man is the history of religious societies and the accomplishments of man originate from people of religion all shows how religious education spearheads thinking in every society.
Now compare that with the Piraha, a tribe with no God and no religion. They are so adamant that they will believe only in what they see, that they have lost the capacity for abstract thinking and reasoning.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
They believe in spirits so they are animist which is quite common in primitive tribes. You say they are 'adamant' which means 'impervious to pleas', who has been pleading with them to believe in what they cannot see? Some religious goon I suppose? 
Are they really 'adamant' or simply have existed in such a way where there was no need to believe in anything they could not see? The need for abstract thinking and reasoning are borne of necessity. Why would such an isolated group of amazon dwellers have such a necessity? Sounds as if they have lived a very simplistic, idyllic existence, a kind of eden we could say.
You claim all of the accomplishments we have today come from religion. What about all the problems we have today? Can we attribute them all to religion as well? Religion has not given us a more sane world, there is still poverty, war, ignorance and stupidity, pollution of the environment. Maybe we need some accomplishments that come out of reason and not out of the worlds major antiquated cults.
Are they really 'adamant' or simply have existed in such a way where there was no need to believe in anything they could not see? The need for abstract thinking and reasoning are borne of necessity. Why would such an isolated group of amazon dwellers have such a necessity? Sounds as if they have lived a very simplistic, idyllic existence, a kind of eden we could say.
You claim all of the accomplishments we have today come from religion. What about all the problems we have today? Can we attribute them all to religion as well? Religion has not given us a more sane world, there is still poverty, war, ignorance and stupidity, pollution of the environment. Maybe we need some accomplishments that come out of reason and not out of the worlds major antiquated cults.
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National Geographic (I think) did an excellent write of the Piraha. Very interesting.
Upon thinking about it, we will have religion for some time to come. And so I think Secular education should include a secular class on Religious Archeology, Paleontology and Sociology. To counterbalance what people are taught in Churches.
I remember one time I was talking to an Iranian years ago, over drinks. He was already 90% atheist. Still some superstitious beliefs (which he probably still had) and I told him about how Arabs used to walk around the stone in Mecca venerating a God called Allah before there was an Islam and he stood up and suddenly said: I knew it was all bullshit!
Such is the power of a tiny amount of information.
IF we should find ourselves with a lot of social unrest THEN if it comes right down to it, we may have to teach religion in secular schools. If we assume for now people will be religious, then maybe we should teach them what to think? It would probably better than leaving it in the hands of the local crackpots?
M
Upon thinking about it, we will have religion for some time to come. And so I think Secular education should include a secular class on Religious Archeology, Paleontology and Sociology. To counterbalance what people are taught in Churches.
I remember one time I was talking to an Iranian years ago, over drinks. He was already 90% atheist. Still some superstitious beliefs (which he probably still had) and I told him about how Arabs used to walk around the stone in Mecca venerating a God called Allah before there was an Islam and he stood up and suddenly said: I knew it was all bullshit!
Such is the power of a tiny amount of information.
IF we should find ourselves with a lot of social unrest THEN if it comes right down to it, we may have to teach religion in secular schools. If we assume for now people will be religious, then maybe we should teach them what to think? It would probably better than leaving it in the hands of the local crackpots?
M
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Michael why would religion be important during a time of social unrest? How would it come in handy?
This is what I mean by a reduced capacity for abstract reasoning. I would have said, wow, so its true, Allah is the pre-Isamic word for God. And added, btw, what is the source of this information?
Sam i notice you skipped my post
No I did not, I could see a point I could respond to. My point was that without religion, we may all have been the Piraha and your response made some other point which I could not connect to my point.
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I would think, but maybe not, but I'd suppose that people's behavior would be less predictable during sudden and severe change, such as a depression or revolution, and so to make it more predictable one would need an ideology that could realine the public, effectively channeling their behavior and making it more predictable and better to control, religion could do that. So to could nationalism. Which has somewhat replaced religion. Predictable behavior in the short term could theoretically be very productive.
In the long term society needs a level of unpredictability to out compete neighboring societies. During these times, chock back the religion throttle or you'll stall your society. Communism is a good example of near total control over all aspects of life. So to Islam. Makes people predictable but stalls development.
Religion is and always has been about controlling the behavior of large numbers of people. When Generals sacrificed bulls to the Gods to win a war, I'm sure they knew it was all about boosting the moral of their solders. And etc...
S.A.M. You believe Mohammad split to moon in to two peaces, you think the Qur'an is Perfect, yeah, if I told guess what Xenu was a comic book character before Ron made him into a God, you'd still think your Theta levels were misaligned and demand I handover said comic strip - then you'd refuse to believe me when I did - You'd say it was a fraud... or that Xenu went back in time and placed the comic strip there to test you... or something.
Remember when we went on and on AND ON about the Qur'an, it's date of publication and the authors who wrote what? In the end the SAM tells me "It was perfectly sung down through the ages, all perfectly perfect right on into The Qur'an - the exact one we have today JUST the way Allah intended. Sung and Sang, Sang and Sung.... " There's nothing anyone can say to convince you otherwise. We are only recently beginning to understand the proteins involved in cementing certain ideologies permanently in place into the neural net. Once we have THAT figured out then maybe we can do something about your condition?
Other than all I can offer is my sincere apologies?
:shrug:
Michael
Remember when we went on and on AND ON about the Qur'an, it's date of publication and the authors who wrote what? In the end the SAM tells me "It was perfectly sung down through the ages, all perfectly perfect right on into The Qur'an - the exact one we have today JUST the way Allah intended. Sung and Sang, Sang and Sung.... " There's nothing anyone can say to convince you otherwise. We are only recently beginning to understand the proteins involved in cementing certain ideologies permanently in place into the neural net. Once we have THAT figured out then maybe we can do something about your condition?
Other than all I can offer is my sincere apologies?
:shrug:
Michael
Diverting as it is to see you lapse into one of your bizarre rants, may I say that even that is a cut above being a person who cannot fathom what happens to a canoe when it turns around a bend? The ability to reason in the abstract is a human quality and its quite possible that atheism is a result of a defect in that mechanism. Religious education may help to overcome this defect which explains why a few centuries after the monks decided to provide education to the non-religious, they have found their niche in the same institutions.
I see where you are going and yes that's a valid point. I actually hadn't thought about it. The work with the Piraha is very contentious though. Some people say that the scientist working with them was fabricating data to continue to get funding - because it's an interesting story to tell. As for now, it's hard to say.
Here's the thing though, many Islanders tested for IQ scored extremely low. Their children score much higher. The explanation is that their children live in a much more complex word. A world that required more abstract reasoning. Could it be that complex social relationships lead to abstract thought and THIS then lead to Religion? Maybe it's living in a complex Civil society that leads to abstraction? The Islanders were religious after all.
Michael
PS: I wasn't ranting ... after 3-4 years SAM I think we can have some fun. No?
On this topic, I wonder, which religion do you suppose would lead to more abstract thinking? Polytheism or Monotheism? What about Philosophy? What about Buddhism? Monotheism seems kind of simple. Could it be that such simplicity actually retards abstract thought development? (I'm thinking your typical monotheist)
Is Buddhist Philosophy more thought provoking?
Is Buddhist Philosophy more thought provoking?
Is this a magical complex word[sic!] that requires no effort on the part of the rest of society? What if the entire society is incapable of complex reasoning? What kind of society do they bequeath their children?
Thats an interesting hypothesis, since it was an evangelical who went there to explore them and lost his faith in the process. Meanwhile, anthropologists and linguists have studied them since then.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirahã_people
What is your contentious source? I'd like to read it for myself.
Oh and since you are so hung up on art, here is some Piraha art for you
do you believe in the Bell Curve hypothesis?
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this needed a bump for the thread to get back on track
the bold part is the greatest line item i have read on the concept of childrens education and our future; that i have ever read
the reason is; 'good' knowledge, grows, developes, evolves and the false or 'bad' is a loss to the common (all of us)
there is NO excuse to ever need to fib, when addressing knowledge and the progression thereof
sure your beautiful; but fibbing when it comes to defining existence (life) is not an option
for example:
life: abuses entropy
and anyone who says otherwise is a beeping liar
see the facts: if life evolved from a single celled critter as the sciences shares and also fits the 'tree of life' scenario as darwin illustrated, then over these billions of years; life did not equilibriate or we would not be here!
so did 'life' abuse entropy or not?
life: abuses entropy
and anyone who says otherwise is a beeping liar
see the facts: if life evolved from a single celled critter as the sciences shares and also fits the 'tree of life' scenario as darwin illustrated, then over these billions of years; life did not equilibriate or we would not be here!
so did 'life' abuse entropy or not?