where is god?

Re: is the universe self aware?

Originally posted by Godless
When she makes this statement she is not speaking of objects, is a rock self aware?, she is speaking of human consciousness. To exist is to be aware of self. To know thy self is to identify one self.

What identity has this phenemonon, called god given?. Only that we can not know him,it,her?. If something exists that we have not identified, has it? is it self aware, does it know its own identity?. If it does then it possess self consciousness.

(Something can exist that cannot be identified or detected by our senses.)

It is a large universe, there are probably millions of things that exist that we don't know about or we have yet to identify. This does nothing to disprove that if (you) exist you have identity!!.

Do you exist?. then you have identity. (self aware) I know you exist, do you?.

How can you prove to me that "god" exist?. what identity can you justify for it's existence? how can (it) prove to me! (it) is real and tha it exists!!.

Faith?. LOL. give me a break!!.

What is this "identity" you speak of? Are you saying that for something to exist, it has to have an identity? What is this "existance" you speak of? If you are speaking of physical identity, then Ayn's wrong, things can exist that cannot be identified physically. If you are saying that if you exist, you have an identity, there is no way to prove or disprove that.

As for "god", I can say almost anything that scientifically exist is god, like light, the universe, all of consciousness, absolute reality, etc..
 
"Where is God?"?

I think it is obvious.

He is in Tampa, of course.

He is a really old, retired Jewish man.
Where else would be be?
 
I'm with raven!!. LOL...

Raven thanks for throwing humor!!

Do you have identity?. when you see yourself in the mirror, what do you see?. can you *identify* the image in the mirror?.

THAT IDENTITY

Things exist, that we've not identified. But are these things SELF AWARE!!, ARE THEY INANIMATE OBJECTS OR PHYSICAL BEIGN?

Communication breakdown? I agreed with you that there are probably millions of things that exist we've not identified, this is not what she speaks of. SHE SPEAKS OF SELF AWARNESS!!!and of how you are able to represent that identity to others!!. Can god materialize itself unto me?. NO!!!

Let me catch my breath from laughter for a minute: pin point this one for you:


(If you are saying that if you exist, you have an identity, there is no way to prove or disprove that.)

Hey!! these are not words we have no way to (identify) if they exist or not?
How idiotic is that?. Pendejo, the only way to prove non existence is by not existing!! which oviously you can't do. Unless you see no image of yourself in the mirror!!. Are you dead?.
 
"yinyinwang, you are quiet correct, I am remnant of ancient men, I too had to defeat, conquer my mysticism by discovering what was wrong I was able to overcome hardship of bicameral mind. My apolegies, for mentioning "ignorance" I too had ignorance, though I never quit searching to enlighten my atheistic mind. "

Godless:
Since you make it big topic about proving things, here is my personal website, if you like, go and take a look:
http://yinyinwang.bravepages.com

I did not believe in God a year ago and the reason was obvious that no one has ever seen god and there is no direct evidence linking to its existance, like footprint, a photo-picture, or a bone, etc.
But I suggest that you imagine that if you were god and you want to prove your existance to your creatures, how would you like to do it?

And can anyone prove that there is any natural law existing at all?
 
Remeber that the original sins, no one is innocent in god's eyes,
And i don't think god is totally free in his creation, for example, the materials available for his design are limited. So here comes the tragedy, with merits there are drawbacks. There is some hateful drawback with the pitiful creature. That is god' dilema. You prefer god to create or not?
That is your problem too.
 
Yin...

The "original sin" bit that is an insult to my intelegence!!

How the hell can a baby be sinful?, because he came to be from desire, love, sex?

Original Sin: Your code begins by damning man as evil, then demands that he practice a good which it defines as imposible for him to practice. It demands, as his first proof of virtue, that he accept his own depravity without proof. It demands that he start, not with a standard of value, but with a standard of evil, which is himself, by means of which he is then to define the good: the good is that which he is not.
It does not matter who then becomes the profiteer on his renounced glory and tormented soul, a mystic God with some imcomprehensible design or any passser-by whose roting sores are held as some inexplicable claim upon him--it does not matter, the good is not for him to understand, his duty is to crawl through years of penance, atoning for the guilt of his existence to any stray collector of unintellegible debts, his only concept of a value is a zero: the good is that which is non-man. The name of this monstrous absurdity is Original Sin.
A sin without volition is a slap at morality and an insolent contradiction in terms: that which is outside the possibility of choice is outside the province of morality. If man is evil by birth, he has no will, no power to change it; if he has no will, he can neither be good or evil; a robot is amoral. To hold, as man's sin a fact not open to his choice is a mockery of nature. To punish him for a crime he committed before he was born is a mockery of justice. To hold him quilty in a matter where no innoncense exists is a mockery of reason. To destroy morality, nature, justice and reason by means of a single concept is a feat of evil hardly to be matched. Yet that is the root of your code.
Do not hide behind the cowardly evansion that man is born with free will, but with a "tendency" to evil. A free will saddled with a tendency is like a game with loaded dice. It forces man to struggle through the effort of playing, to bear responsiblity and pay for the game, but the decision is weighted in favor of a tendency that he had no power to escape. If the tendence is of choice, he cannot possess it at birth; if it is not of his choice, his will is not free.
What is the nature of the quilt your teachers call his Original Sin?
What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge--he acquired a mind and became a rational beign. It was the knowledge of good and evil--he became a moral beign. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor--he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire--he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy--all the cardinals values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man's fall is design to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his quilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was--that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love--he was not man.
Man's fall, according to your teachers, was that he gained the virtues required to live. These virtues, by their own standard, are his Sin. His evil, they charge, is that he's man. His quilt, they charge, is that he lives.
Ayn Rand

Explain then to me after reading above, and comprehending it. Without taken sentences out of context, that your god, is a benevolent, creature?.

If the words are true, (that god created man in his own image.) and god is perfect, but we are not. Then we are not created by his image. Your god is a liar!. Religion is only a remnant of the bicameral mind. (evolve!)

Godless.
 
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There is nothing original about sin

To quote Ayn Rand herself: "Reality exists as an objective absolute — facts are facts independent of man’s feelings, wishes, hopes or fears." - the ethics of Ayn Rand.

Whether you agree that God is a reality is not the question right now, but whether He could be described as benevolent if (original) sin is a reality.

Sin is the separation between God and man. This separation is illustrated by Adam and Eve's choice not to heed God's warning about the temptation of evil, and their subsequent exile from life with God. All their children - the human race - are born into this exile, a "world without God".

Sin is not just "something you did wrong". It is a state of separation that is characterized by all kinds of moral and legal transgressions. The cleanest, purest, most innocent baby is born into this world - it is only its pure nature as image of God that still connects it to God's world and God's life. No wonder the words for "soul" and "divine breath" that are used to describe consciousness of God means simply "to be alive".

If God did not present a way where we could be reconciled with Him in this world, the only salvation would have been to keep ourselves holy (separate from sin) - as those before Christ had no choice but to try. But Christ was also born into this exile, separating himself from God willingly. He was not born of a descendent of Adam, so He did not share a legacy of sin; He knew God as he knew himself, but did not strive to be "God" but to be completely human in the true sense of the word: as God's image. When we recognize that in Him we recognize God, and we recognize his Salvation, which means restoring the possibility of a relationship with Him and forgiving us from our part in sin, which is the "sting" of death - the opposite of life with God.

We are created in God's image - the question is 1) do we recognize it and, 2) do we live like we do?
 
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Gl
maybe the word "sin" is too strong, but to my understanding, by adding the word "original", the context meaning is the potential of being wrong.
 
"Original sin" is misleading and vague, but unfortunately like the concept of "trinity" it is more or less the only way to distinguish one doctrine from another.

Bear in mind the Bible doesn't really say where sin came from even with the Garden of Eden story. It doesn't specify at which point "sin" actually enters the picture. The story just captures the essence of the problem. Sin's "origin" in Adam is a way of explaining that Adam was just like us, and we are just like him - with one significant difference: Adam had only God's word, because God was his "father", while we all have parents who had parents who had parents - and none of them perfect. Neither are we, and we can't return to Eden without God's grace. We won't evolve out of sin - we need a direct relationship with Him as our Father. Eve wasn't any more or less guilty than Adam, but he is the one credited as the first sinner. They were both equally responsible for not listenng to a creation rather than God.

The real origin of sin is not putting God first in any choice you make.
 
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The "original sin" bit that is an insult to my intelegence!!

How the hell can a baby be sinful?, because he came to be from desire, love, sex?
The original sin is because we recognize both good and evil (thus temptation is created (and the option to choose the wrong way)). I really don't think a baby is sinful, but I think that during our growth we all eat that apple of knowledge, or maybe we all go through eden at the beginning.

Maybe we thought that we had to eat the apple, to understand the wrong way so we wouldn't follow it, instead of trusting God?

There are many ways to see it, pick one that suits you.
 
Godless -How can I be benevolent, and yet let suffering occur?

Is suffering a bad thing? What is pleasure without pain or happiness withour sorrow?

Suffering is an important part of being alive. What fun would adventures and sports be if there was no suffering?
 
Originally posted by MShark
Is suffering a bad thing? What is pleasure without pain or happiness withour sorrow?

Suffering is an important part of being alive. What fun would adventures and sports be if there was no suffering?
Absolutely: Suffering is not an absolute.
 
A look at the ethics of Christian (sin)

Christian Comdemnation of Emotions:

Emotions are not subject to condemnation, quilt, or right wrong judgments..only actions are right or wrong. Next to the mystical concept of original sin, perhaps the most pervasively damaging, unjust concept projected by the Christian ethic is the moral judgment of emotions. Especially malevolent and harmfull are the condemnations of emotions such as found in the Sermon on the Mount: "But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath commited adultery with her already in his heart.". By condemning human emotions, Christians discovered an effective tool to condemn everyone..to make everyone quilty, keeping them more controllable for usurping power and values. Since everyone by nature possesses a full range of automatic feelings or emotions that cannot be directly controlled, shut off or stopped, nearly everyone is victimized by Christian-style "sin" and "quilt".
While everyone innocently experiences negative, irrational emotions, no one ever has to act on such emotions. And since only human actions are subject to choice, only human actions (not emotions) are subject to moral judgement.
Dr. Frank R. Wallace Neo-Tech Publishing.

MShark: do you expect to suffer in heaven?(if you been good, & tried to live by Jesus ethcis*)*inconprehensibel ethics, What is the point of heaven if you can't suffer there as well?.

Yin: as the statements above by Dr Wallace, sin is nothing more than an attack on human emotions, this is a technigue used by many usurpers from past and present, not only by church but as well by the state. In reality sin is just a tool to control human emotions by other authorities who want power over you.

Never forget the words of an Eddie Murphy movie (Coming to America) when in the church to raise money the priest says on to its congregation:



DIG DEEP IN YOUR POCKETS, AND REMEMBER WE RATHER HAVE THE KIND THAT FOLDS, RATHER THAN THE KIND THAT GINGLES!!

Yin that is the purpose of your leaders, to attack your emotions via sin, to make you a slave, of their impossible ethic code of what they dictate human righthousness should be, and to make you pay, pay, pay and pay for their well being!!

When have you ever seen a priest driving a Yugo in America?.

Here these SOB's drive Lexus, Mercedes, live in $100,000 homes, while their congregation that supports them can hardly make ends meet!!!.
Is that ethical?
 
Godless:
please note that what I believe is not the same thing as what the churches are doing, these are two topics.

And the notion of original sin and the exploitation of the notion are different. The first is a cognition problem and the later is a political problem. The first dose not automatically leads to the later, but unfortunely there is such a possibility. So I suggest that you oppose the later, not the former subject.

As to the practice of believf principles in world life, it is much the same as any other principles from any religion or science. We should be careful of those manipulators.
 
Yin...

By what you discribe in your last post:

quote: (please note that what I believe is not the same thing as what the churches are doing, these are two topics.)

Then my friend I assume your belives are seperate from any organized religious congregations. This makes you a deist!!.

A deist, believes god created, the universe, earth and all but has no intervention in human actions.

So if this is the case, the word (sin) would not pertain to you, cause the term (sin) is purely an invention of orthodox judeo-christian believes.

Julio.
 
Quantum Physics says that consciousness creates reality, reality doesn't create consciousness. Physical objects would have no properties if a conscious observer was not there watching them. Observers create the reality, the reailty isn't already there. Reality is SUBJECTIVE, since everyone has their own individual senses, thuoghts, ideas, and reality. Facts are just what a bunch of people agree on to be. These "facts" periodically change with new experiments and such. Thus, collasping Ayn Rand's entire philosophy.
 
Let me catch my breath from laughter for a minute: pin point this one for you:


(If you are saying that if you exist, you have an identity, there is no way to prove or disprove that.)

Hey!! these are not words we have no way to (identify) if they exist or not?
How idiotic is that?. Pendejo, the only way to prove non existence is by not existing!! which oviously you can't do. Unless you see no image of yourself in the mirror!!. Are you dead?.

.

Hmm...so a blind man has no identity? He cannot see himself in the mirror, so he's dead? What are you stupid? By seeing myself, I exist? So I guess if I dream about seeing someone, they exist. Or if I vividly visualize something, it exist. How can you prove that you exist? Is it by using your 5 senses which simply interpret electrical signals? That would only prove that electrical signals exist - not you. We observe things with our five senses, but if something exist that our five senses cannot pick up it doesn't "exist" to us. Think about it, if everyone was blind then not everything we see would "exist". We would only be able to intepret things with the rest of our senses.
 
I don't exist pendejo!!

I dont exist pendejo, you however may exist. why don't you try and put a bullet in your head, maybe this way you can say!! I did exist!!.

A blind man does not see his reflection on the mirror, however he can surely feel his heart beat.

Can you?

Anyhow do you like grabing sentences out of context, then making a whole argument out of nothing?. This is called non-sequitur this is the base of your argument:

I don' know I exist?, if I dream, the characters of my dreams exist?, basically I don't understand that I have an Identity, I go by the name VitalOne, though I don't know what that is, cause I can't prove my existence, Hey!! Godless how can you prove to me you exist?.

Godless: you are unable to prove your own existence? So what is it that you call your life?.
 
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