What is Islam?

[(Q)]

Well....possibly. Maybe. There are true moderates, like Zak, like inzomnia, Challenger (who's actually leaning more towards atheism these days, but still) and others. Even Straw might - when the wind blows westward - be considered a moderate on religious issues, though a staunch Iranian republicanist on others.

That's where I usually have a problem, the notion of "moderates" and "fundamentalists" within a cult.

Seems the fundamentalists are merely those who follow the tenets of their religion while the moderates decided to change the tenets to suit their agendas while back-peddling in the face of reality.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Well....possibly. Maybe. There are true moderates, like Zak, like inzomnia, Challenger (who's actually leaning more towards atheism these days, but still) and others. Even Straw might - when the wind blows westward - be considered a moderate on religious issues, though a staunch Iranian republicanist on others.

I agree with you. We have other muslims on this site who in no way, shape or form mirrors the kind of attitude shown by Sam, they generally don't troll and don't come up with bigoted insensitive bitter posts.

 

[GeoffP]

That's where I usually have a problem, the notion of "moderates" and "fundamentalists" within a cult.

Seems the fundamentalists are merely those who follow the tenets of their religion while the moderates decided to change the tenets to suit their agendas while back-peddling in the face of reality.

Well, you might accentuate different tenets.

 

[(Q)]

Well, you might accentuate different tenets.

Again, I have a problem with that. Here's why. I would tend to think that whatever tenets were handed down from a god would not be something that can be changed or manipulated in any way. If it's from god, then who are we to fuck with his tenets?

So, I would also tend to think that "accentuating" those tenets would fall under the same category as "fucking" with those tenets. It simply is not done.

So, we're left with the conclusion that whatever tenets are handed down must be followed implicitly, with no singular tenet having any more or less validity or import than another. And, no single person or group of persons has the authority to make any changes to those tenets. Only god would have that authority.

 

[S.A.M.]

If they were written down as tenets, sure. What if they were written down as allegories and suggestions?

I mean how would you follow this?

1. In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
2. Praise be to God, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the world;
3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
4. Master of the Day of Judgment.
5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
6. Show us the straight way,
7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace,
those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

 

[GeoffP]

Again, I have a problem with that. Here's why. I would tend to think that whatever tenets were handed down from a god would not be something that can be changed or manipulated in any way. If it's from god, then who are we to fuck with his tenets?

So, I would also tend to think that "accentuating" those tenets would fall under the same category as "fucking" with those tenets. It simply is not done.

So, we're left with the conclusion that whatever tenets are handed down must be followed implicitly, with no singular tenet having any more or less validity or import than another. And, no single person or group of persons has the authority to make any changes to those tenets. Only god would have that authority.

Maybe so, but He also countenances tolerance and compassion in my Scriptures, so ultimately I'll talk my chances. Sorry I don't have time for a longer answer; busy today. I even have to stop arguing with Sam.

 

[scifes]

Not for much longer.

lol we haven't eve started..

Not in the slightest.

have you read the thread heh heh heh?


but on a different note, bells seem not to catch the sarcasm..

And how is that working out so far?

I really don't think you should be proud of the fact that there are some in your religion who are using your religion and killing innocent people because of their sexuality, sex, because they showed a bit too much skin, etc. I don't consider that "getting away with it". I consider that reverting back to the stone age.

Not exactly something you should be proud of or be boasting about.

so you really think what islam means to muslims is:

Justification for doing whatever the fuck they want.

because if you thought my reply to Q meant that i agree with him, then you're wrong.
and even if that is what it means to me, you're talking as if muslims are actually fulfilling even one percent of that wish, who are you kidding people? muslims are doing whatever the fuck they want? isn't it whatever the fuck is what's been done to muslims? are muslims even allowed to decide on what they teach their kids at schools, do charity work, practice their laws, choose how to wear and where to pray, without being called terrorists? without being sent to Guantanamo if they're lucky? without being murdered in a law court in front of everybody? without having to take an exra one hour check in airports? without having their countries invaded and bombed and their people killed and slaughtered and tortured and humiliated, while those who do this to them are deciding not to eat chicken anymore, because killing chicklets is too horrible?
who the F*** are you all kidding?

How is it more compatible? Has it stood the test of time?

you tell me..

Do you think stoning someone to death is compatible with "our world" compared to "modern systems" that views such punishment as being perverted and cruel? Because there are some who share your religion who use said religion to justify such actions and punishments.

go read the thread heh heh heh, i'm tired of repeating myself.

It is an open forum. In other words, others from all walks of life and beliefs are allowed to post in this thread so long as they are members of this forum.

no one said they're not allowed, the starter of the thread has asked a question, was specific to who it was asked, and requested that others don't interfere, if you choose to use your "right" to post in such thread despite that then it gives a clearer image of the amount of respect you hold to yourself and others on this forum.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

so you really think what islam means to muslims is:
because if you thought my reply to Q meant that i agree with him, then you're wrong.
and even if that is what it means to me, you're talking as if muslims are actually fulfilling even one percent of that wish, who are you kidding people? muslims are doing whatever the fuck they want? isn't it whatever the fuck is what's been done to muslims? are muslims even allowed to decide on what they teach their kids at schools, do charity work, practice their laws, choose how to wear and where to pray, without being called terrorists? without being sent to Guantanamo if they're lucky? without being murdered in a law court in front of everybody? without having to take an exra one hour check in airports? without having their countries invaded and bombed and their people killed and slaughtered and tortured and humiliated, while those who do this to them are deciding not to eat chicken anymore, because killing chicklets is too horrible?
who the F*** are you all kidding?

But you are using a Sam strategy here which is to take Bells words out of context and then assume that what she says is irrelevant and what muslims do that may not be in their own or others interest as irrelevant because of a random number of abuses. This is like excusing crime because someone was hit by mommy and daddy when they were a child. Or its like saying that if a black person decided to seek revenge or cause havoc its their right because they suffered from slavery and discrimination. Its a rubbish argument. You also do not keep any of these examples within a specific context so anyone can respond to them. For example in what are muslims unable to teach their kids whatever they want in school? Within what context are you referring to muslims wearing whatever they want? I would ask you if you believe Danish journalists have the right to depict mohammed however they want in their own newspapers in their own country within the parameters of the laws which their nation allows. I can think of the same number of grievances the West would have against muslims but you would not agree that this is a reason for the west to behave any way they want.

 

[Bells]

because if you thought my reply to Q meant that i agree with him, then you're wrong.
and even if that is what it means to me, you're talking as if muslims are actually fulfilling even one percent of that wish, who are you kidding people? muslims are doing whatever the fuck they want? isn't it whatever the fuck is what's been done to muslims? are muslims even allowed to decide on what they teach their kids at schools, do charity work, practice their laws, choose how to wear and where to pray, without being called terrorists? without being sent to Guantanamo if they're lucky? without being murdered in a law court in front of everybody? without having to take an exra one hour check in airports? without having their countries invaded and bombed and their people killed and slaughtered and tortured and humiliated, while those who do this to them are deciding not to eat chicken anymore, because killing chicklets is too horrible?
who the F*** are you all kidding?

Oh, I know you were not agreeing with him. But your post is, as Lucy pointed out so well, weak.

But do tell us. Are Muslims who live in Islamic countries allowed to wear what they want? Learn what they want from school? Read whatever book they want? Watch whatever show they want on TV? Are women in Afghanistan allowed to say "no" to their husbands without risking starvation? Do tell Scifes..

Do you think Muslims who hide behind their religion as justification to abuse women and children, deny basic human rights to other Muslims, who murder anyone who dares to show some sense of individuality or free choice.. should such Muslims be 'allowed to get away with it?' Should your religion be used as a justification for such crimes? And should you be proud of it?

I don't boast about what happens in Gitmo, because what happens in Gitmo is a crime and a human rights nightmare. I don't sit there and do a smiley face and say 'we're getting away with it', as though all the bad that comes with the good of your religion is somehow equal in being acceptable. When the reality is that it is not acceptable to dig a hole in the ground and stone someone to death, just as it is unacceptable to lock up children in Gitmo. But you boast about one and condemn the other.

Your hypocrisy is amusing if the subject matter were not so god damn serious.

So I need to ask you. Who the fuck are you kidding?

you tell me..

You made the claim that it has. And I am asking you how exactly. Making a statement of fact and then telling others to justify your claim when others question you about said claims is silly.

no one said they're not allowed, the starter of the thread has asked a question, was specific to who it was asked, and requested that others don't interfere, if you choose to use your "right" to post in such thread despite that then it gives a clearer image of the amount of respect you hold to yourself and others on this forum.

I would question the respect you have for others on this forum.

 

[GeoffP]

lol we haven't eve started..

And ended so soon! Sad, really.

have you read the thread heh heh heh?

Yes I have hee hee hee!

 

[Bells]

Yes I have hee hee hee!

Can I just say, the mental image of you giggling is a tad disconcerting.

 

[GeoffP]

It's more of a cackle.

I have to do something in the volcano, you know.

 

[Bells]

It's more of a cackle.

I have to do something in the volcano, you know.

Then we should be thankful it is just a cackle and not you belching murderous gas.

 

[GeoffP]

We do that in the secret detention room. Down the hall from the Sharks With Frickin Lazer Beams Attached To Their Heads, past the water fountain, door on the right, can't miss it. Although you would probably want to.

http://www.sciforums.com/encyclopedia/Sharks_With_Frickin_Laser_Beams_Attached_To_Their_Heads

 

[Michael]

What is Islam?

Well, was there an answer in here somewhere?

I like to think about Slavery, because as in Institution and a practice slavery used to be "Islamic". Many many MANY Muslims made a living selling African Slaves. Especially Arab Muslims but also a lot of Turkish and Kurdish Muslims. Jews too. Lots of Jews made money selling Slaves. Mohammad, character in a book or not, owned Slaves.

It was the norm for Muslims.
It was therefor Islamic.

I don't think you could find to many, if any at all, Muslims who think Slavery is "Islamic" today. Most Muslims would say no it isn't Islamic. What they mean is it isn't moral behavior. And accordingly Muslim apologists therefor have to revise what it meant for Mohammad to own Slaves. Or to take other humans as Slaves as war booty.

So, why did so-called Muslim nations ban Slavery? They didn't. Western nations pressured them to do so, because Western nations had decided it was no longer Christian. Before the modern era Slavery was perfectly Christian behavior.

This is the big problem facing Muslim countries today. They are a bit backwards relative to the rest of the world. They don't lead the word in much of anything. The so-called Western nations do. Imagine what that's like? To have a 6th century ideology that is constantly criticized by the West AND from within by Muslims (which is a good thing). It's causing a lot of the problems we have today.

What is Islam?

You should see how modern ME countries were 40 years ago. More modern than now! Too bad really. It's a shame. meh... anyway.




From an outsider looking in on Islam, to me, Islam looks to be about 80% a sixth century branch of Arab Christianity. Mohammad as "THE" Last Prophet is simply icing on a Christian Cake (lots of flavor but no ideological substance) makes up about 20% (IMO).

So, Islam is 6th century Arab Christianity.

- The Qur'an is in essentially the Bible. All the important ideological stuff (one God, Adam and Eve, Satan, what's right and wrong, it's all Biblical).
- Mosques are smaller version of Hagia Sophia (itself the largest Church in the world for 1000 years).

However, Mohammad has taken on the role of demi-God. I've known Muslims who just pray directly to Mohammad. Now I see Mohammad as a literary creation. But, that's not really all that important. what is important is what people THINK his actions were. Because Mohammad was modeled on what was considered good Nomadic Arab behavior - THIS is a the problem with Islam and the modern world. What was good behavior in the 6th century, for a Nomad, isn't good behavior now - it's probably BAD and immoral behavior.

Many Muslims think Mohammad
- chopped off 900 Jews heads.
- ordered a singing girl to have her head chopped off.
- had a 9 year wife.
- waged war in the name of god.
- destroyed Temples to other people's Gods.
- was a polygamist.
- hold slaves.
- took women in battle for sex

etc...


See, this is the problem with cults of personality. Their ideology is based somewhere else (in this case Christianity) so that only leaves the actions of Dear Leader to delineate the so-called New (or Perfected) Ideology. Islamic apologist have their work cut out for them. But, then again, so did Christian apologist. AND it's not that every tiny little nail needs to be flattened down. Just enough to that society becomes stable and wealthy. At the point people will naturally become moderate. And a couple generations from there become secular.


Lastly, about Islam, it might be good to think, what are some good Islamic ideals that will fit well in the modern world? Because I think that's important to think about.


Michael


Just one little note here, about Mohammad taking the 9 year old bride. OK, a lot of people think he was a pedo. But, that's not the case. Mohammad didn't surround himself with little girls. The reason the people who created the literary character who is Mohammad, as having a young bride, was because back them being a virgin (and having a virgin for a wife) was paramount. So, they made sure the girl was so young, that she MUST have been a virgin. This story probably had Persia authors I think. As lineage was more important when it came to who gets to be Emperor, then it would have been to a "real" Mohammad. So, you can see how its not all that hard to be an Muslim apologist. I expect "Islam" to likewise be modified and move with the times.

 

[(Q)]

If they were written down as tenets, sure. What if they were written down as allegories and suggestions?

They were, and are called Aesops Fables and Grimms Fairy Tales.

I mean how would you follow this?

1. In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
2. Praise be to God, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the world;
3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
4. Master of the Day of Judgment.
5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
6. Show us the straight way,
7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace,
those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

Completely insane gibberish. Loss of mind. Unfathomable ignorance, oppression and fear.

 

[(Q)]

Maybe so, but He also countenances tolerance and compassion in my Scriptures, so ultimately I'll talk my chances.

Your scriptures? How many scriptures are out there purporting a one and only single god?

That's quite the chance your taking. Odds don't seem to be with you, though.

 

[(Q)]

who are you kidding people? muslims are doing whatever the fuck they want?

Yes, they are. They make demands, often rioting in the streets by forcing their intolerant beliefs on other societies.

isn't it whatever the fuck is what's been done to muslims?

Nothing has been done to Muslims.

are muslims even allowed to decide on what they teach their kids at schools, do charity work, practice their laws, choose how to wear and where to pray, without being called terrorists?

The people decide those things, not Islam.

without being sent to Guantanamo if they're lucky? without being murdered in a law court in front of everybody? without having to take an exra one hour check in airports? without having their countries invaded and bombed and their people killed and slaughtered and tortured and humiliated, while those who do this to them are deciding not to eat chicken anymore, because killing chicklets is too horrible?
who the F*** are you all kidding?

Who are you trying to kid? Stop with all the bullshit, already.

 

[Michael]

That's where I usually have a problem, the notion of "moderates" and "fundamentalists" within a cult.

I agree, but, if we organize the cult/religion in such a way so that the fundamentals are in sync with moral behavior, then it should be OK for both the fundi and the moderate AND the non-believer AND the other believer.

 

[S.A.M.]

Nothing has been done to Muslims.

Indeed