What is Islam?

iceaura said:
So the argument seems to be: even serious oppression of women is not as bad as dropping bombs on them, therefore the varieties of female oppression are merely simple cultural differences, carry no weight of ethical value, cannot be compared as right or wrong, good or bad, even better or worse.
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Based on my personal experience, I would say that women wearing veils in Islam [which is probably about 5-10% of Muslim women overall] are as as oppressed as women wearing any other piece of clothing rather than going naked. By your criteria the only free women would be those in Girls Gone Wild or other porn actresses.

How many women want to be them?
 
SAM said:
Based on my personal experience, I would say that women wearing veils in Islam [which is probably about 5-10% of Muslim women overall] are as as oppressed as women wearing any other piece of clothing rather than going naked.
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Your perceptions and understandings are at issue, not your experience.

For starters, never mind the veil - flagrant as it is.
 
iceaura said:
For starters, never mind the veil - flagrant as it is.
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Exactly, never mind the veil, because that is a cultural difference, I wore one there and was treated better than I was without one in the States. Look at other issues, the ones that are not [culturally defined]
 
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SAM said:
Exactly, never mind the veil, because that is a cultural difference, I wore one there and was treated better than I was without one in the States.
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The mandatory veil is a flagrant oppression, and treating some of the oppressed well does not change this.
SAM said:
By your criteria the only free women would be those in Girls Gone Wild or other porn actresses.
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Where did porn come into this?

Why was that irrelevancy your chosen comparison?

For that matter, why would it matter how many women wanted to do this or that?
 
iceaura said:
The mandatory veil is a flagrant oppression, and treating some of the oppressed well does not change this.
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Probably, as I already acknowledged. But its far far faaaaar lower on the scale of priority for any woman than the invasion and occupation of her country to bring her "backward" society into line. In fact, it seems to have rather the opposite effect, from historical precedent


Where did porn come into this?

Why was that irrelevancy your chosen comparison?

For that matter, why would it matter how many women wanted to do this or that?
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It would unless you think what women want is irrelevant to their society.
 
I suppose it depends on the woman. Sam you obviously need a burka made of jute.

But the real issue is the being required to wear something. People who have a choice and choose to wear stupid is one thing. People forced to wear stupid or be killed or maimed, that is another.
 
I just got a kurti made of Jute will that do? :p

What about people forced to be stupid and kill or get killed?
 
S.A.M. said:
Yeah, I'm the sad individual here.
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Yes, you are, as if your attempts at putting up pics and vids of children is somehow supposed to support your bigotry and hatred. You're worse than the JD's who show up at my doorstep with their kids to promote their cult.


Maybe you might want to spend a few hours with that kid and learn how she brought upon herself the melting to death of her two sisters, while plotting the self-derived state of affairs upon her own body.
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And, maybe you should be honest, but it would appear that isn't going to happen anytime soon.
 
Ever notice how the men most against the veil are also likely to be the ones who blame the victims for having brought it upon themselves?
 
I think all the religions in the world should be ranked by an impartial observer under the category Contemporary. For the sake of argument the modern era arrived after WWII ended. Where would Islam be on the contemporary scale? I seem to think prejudices would automatically tar and feather Islam for what some may call antiquated customs and traditions. Also the standard for contemporary would be different for Muslims, Xians, Jews, etc. But from an impartial perspective, perhaps a panel of representatives of each religion in the world taking into account the general overall picture, how would Islam rank? Nah...not very impartial. Perhaps an atheist panel. Who is #1?
 
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GeoffP said:
Er...like uncovered meat?

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20646437-601,00.html
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From the article (quoting mufti)
He said women were "weapons" used by "Satan" to control men.
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Well honestly, if this is a known fact then why aren't men capable of recognizing it? Surely a devout religious man would love to thumb his nose at Satan. I suggest that all attractive and alluring women be the male atheist's problem, he's going to hell anyway.
 
S.A.M. said:
Reading comprehension -1
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WOW. Reading comprehension -10. He's for the veil. He blames the victim. Tell you what: illustrate which in those two things is the real dependent variable and which the independent. Good luck!
 
GeoffP said:
WOW. Reading comprehension -10. He's for the veil. He blames the victim. Tell you what: illustrate which in those two things is the real dependent variable and which the independent. Good luck!
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According to Wren and Martin, "more likely to" is not all encompassing.
 
According to Steel and Torrie, "more likely to" suggests a correlation. A meme you advanced yourself! This is a great thread.
 
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