what defines marriage?

[phlogistician]

no, i don't presume that.

You don't presume that when two Jewish folks are mentioned to be married in the Bible, that they had a Jewish Wedding?

Needs a chapter to itself does it? 'Joseph and Mary, the Early Years.' to explain it to you?

You are being dishonest now Lori. There's no reason to assume they were not married according to the traditions of the time. You are squirming, and bending scripture to excuse your nature.

Have a think about this. If sex is the covenant of marriage, how could Mary have had a virgin birth, while being Joseph's wife?

You have been hoisted by your own scripture.

 

[phlogistician]

it's you that's talking crap. you don't even believe what you're saying about me.

Yes I do. I believe that if you measured your life against your new found standards, you'd have to label yourself a sinner.

you don't even believe in sin,

No, but you do. And it's your beliefs we are discussing.

you're an atheist. talking crap.

No, I'm an atheist, pointing out that your views are inconsistent with themselves and scripture. Seems you are picking and choosing which parts you want to live by, and twisting other parts to accommodate your lifestyle.

Being born again is BS. All it takes is an 'I'm sorry Jesus' on your deathbed to wipe away decades of transgression? Please. Too easy. You need to go read the OT and see how vengeful your God can be. You're gonna burn for a while, Lori.

 

[Adstar]

Adstar:

Whoa, please clarify


Are you saying that "godamned" or "jesus fuck"-- you're calling it blasphemy, just to clarify-- is worse than murder?

You have attempted to blaspheme God in your reply and Jesus you said:
"godamned" and "jesus fuck"

Now read once again the Quote that you where replying to:

Adstar said:
Anyone who accepts the Atonement of the Messiah Jesus for the forgivness of their sins (excluding the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit)

Now can you read?

Jesus said:

Mark 3
28 “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; 29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”— 30 because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.”

The people who claimed that Jesus was possessed by a demon where the scribes who came to him from Jerusalem. They accused the Holy Spirit who was with Jesus as being a demon. This is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and those scribes and all who do this will Never be forgiven but instead will have Eternal Condemnation.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Lori_7]

I meant the oldest surviving shag of yours, not necessarily your first. But it matters not, that's a nit pick and a diversion on your part. If you really think that sex is the covenant of marriage, you are still married to your oldest surviving lover, be they the first, second or third.



It doesn't matter what you thought back then. You are talking about a Universal external truth. If you have just discovered this now, it matters not. All that matters is that you were wrong by your own standards. You are now trying to wriggle and squirm your way out those sins.

i'm not wriggling or squirming. as a matter of fact i've got you wriggling and squirming by the rather common sense idea that a religious ceremony is not required in order to make a vow or a covenant with god. squirming to find some scripture in the bible that states a ceremony is required to make a covenant with god. and you can squirm all you want, but you are not going to find it in there.

and you know what, you're right. what i was doing when i was younger was wrong. and it hurt me too. alot. and that's what jesus is for...so you can learn, and so you don't have to live that way forever, and so you don't have to live in fear of making mistakes and bad choices in ignorance.

i've never been one to accept the truth as i hear it from society, or religious people, or even the bible. society and religion are full of some really stupid people, and the bible is completely worthless if there is no god. so i decided to live and learn it.

and i did.

and over the years god has had a LOT to say to me about marriage and sex, and never, ever, ever, has he mentioned a ceremony. not once. didn't even allude to one. as far as i can tell, god's not a big fan of religion, so it doesn't surprise me that he doesn't give a hoot about a religious ceremony. what he cares about are your intentions, and convictions. see, you get off way too easy with a ceremony.

 

[Lori_7]

You don't presume that when two Jewish folks are mentioned to be married in the Bible, that they had a Jewish Wedding?

Needs a chapter to itself does it? 'Joseph and Mary, the Early Years.' to explain it to you?

You are being dishonest now Lori. There's no reason to assume they were not married according to the traditions of the time. You are squirming, and bending scripture to excuse your nature.

Have a think about this. If sex is the covenant of marriage, how could Mary have had a virgin birth, while being Joseph's wife?

You have been hoisted by your own scripture.

well gee i don't know...i never really considered being married to someone and NOT having sex with them. but sex isn't the only aspect of two becoming one in the flesh. it's emotional, intellectual, it's trust. marriage requires a lot of really important things from the two people, and none of those things are ceremonial.

and as far as mary and joseph are concerned, for christ's sake, they had a baby in a manger. who knows how they celebrated their marriage. :shrug:

the bible simply does not say does it? and you would think that if it were so all important, god wouldn't have forgotten to put it in there. i guess you and those religious people are going to have to point out his mistake to him. tell him how it is...

 

[gendanken]

adstar:

You have attempted to blaspheme God in your reply

No, I didn't attempt it, I did.

I can do it again in Boriquese, if you wish.

And I know some Christian hic didn't just condescend to insult my intelligence---

Now can you read?

Because isn't it you under the complete control of an idea practiced by children?
Because isn't it you that can read and quote gospel though you can't add, can't spell, can't write worth a shit, whose culture has actually sired a show wondering if adults are smarter than fifth graders?

Because isn't it you who must believe the eyewash of Joshua stopping the sun in the sky?
Isn't it you with the restless lip syndrome of talking beyond your intelligence-- quoting scripture is quoting scripture, not thinking, you fucking illiterate.

And isn't it you, the guy with his head down, so caught up genuflecting your knees look like beef, who can't even look up to see that a kneeling human with his head down resembles a coma?

Now, there's a boredom so thick you can mud walls with it.

Are you the church going kind or the Lori McSomething kind of Christian?

How many of you pricks fall asleep during sermon?

How many of you swarm in drones to buffets and Red Lobster, filling the rest of the day with recreational activities to make up for the handful of hours that you know feels like days?

Know why the Judaic sodomite came up with the Sabath? To relieve that chore you idiots call 'worship'.

And don't think this doesn't apply to you because you don't attend church, pretending you're any better than those imbeciles in there tithing-- if I share beliefs with a moron that claims UFOs ate his colon, then, I AM THE SAME MORON HE IS.


So eat me and fuck your holy spirits, your Jawehs, your Jesus, your Krishnas, your Horuses, I don't care to sully the sacred space of my mind with teleological bullshit and don't you ever, again, make the mistake of believing children like you or Lori could ever insult their superiours.

Which brings us to Lori


Lori:

you know what? i've been a member of this forum for over a decade, and i think i can speak for a host of other members when i say that nobody wants this place reduced down to the level of excrement that what you've posted here represents.

I love the way you focus on the sex.

Whassamatta-- cunt read past the slime?

Or do you just want to rip me a new one? My, my, a closet pervert with a mean streak? You're the perfect little Christian, aren't you?

Its the existence of this tendency to aggression which we can detect in ourselves and rightly presume to be present in others is the factor that disturbs our relations with our neighbours and makes it necessary for culture to institute its high demands. Civilized society is perpetually menaced with disintegration through this primary hostility of men towards one another.

you want to write, feel free to go to a porn site

Porn's a mishmash of lube and throbbing vasculature.

Not my awesome prose.

or some sleaze bag chatroom

Like sciforums?

, or write some smut novel,

Like the Bible?

so a bunch of douchebags, like you, can sit alone in your caves and whack off.

Like the bunch of jewbags, like you, who sit alone in caves quoting scripture.

See, I can misquote too.


So, anway, Lori you've yet to answer the most salient of questions: do you and hubby only do missionary?

 

[Lori_7]

Yes I do. I believe that if you measured your life against your new found standards, you'd have to label yourself a sinner.



No, but you do. And it's your beliefs we are discussing.



No, I'm an atheist, pointing out that your views are inconsistent with themselves and scripture. Seems you are picking and choosing which parts you want to live by, and twisting other parts to accommodate your lifestyle.

Being born again is BS. All it takes is an 'I'm sorry Jesus' on your deathbed to wipe away decades of transgression? Please. Too easy. You need to go read the OT and see how vengeful your God can be. You're gonna burn for a while, Lori.

i've already burned...something i doubt you could handle.

and really? really you're going to tell me about MY standards? NOBODY tells me about my standards except for god himself, and you don't know one thing about god. you don't even know if god exists!

 

[phlogistician]

i'm not wriggling or squirming. as a matter of fact i've got you wriggling and squirming by the rather common sense idea that a religious ceremony is not required in order to make a vow or a covenant with god.

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT!

Two people making a covenant between themselves that involves God is not religious? How do you double think that one?

squirming to find some scripture in the bible that states a ceremony is required to make a covenant with god. and you can squirm all you want, but you are not going to find it in there.

How about the Torah and Talmud? The documented religious ceremonies that pre-date Christianity? Jesus attended weddings, just because the exact details of the ceremonies aren't described in detail, does not mean there were not specific ceremonies. You really are showing your dishonesty now.

and you know what, you're right. what i was doing when i was younger was wrong.

And you think that just vanishes? Would a death bed repentance save a serial killer? A Genocidal maniac? How little investment does one need to make to be born again? How many atrocities can one commit, and still be saved? Being born again, and 'saved' is just Christian recruiting bullshit. It's a special offer, another chance, it's SALES. It's not scripture.

and over the years god has had a LOT to say to me about marriage and sex, and never, ever, ever, has he mentioned a ceremony.

Except the voice in your head, is you. Not God.

 

[phlogistician]

i've already burned...something i doubt you could handle.

No Lori, I've lived a perfect life, never made a mistake, and never suffered from regret. This is sarcasm, btw.

and really? really you're going to tell me about MY standards? NOBODY tells me about my standards except for god himself, and you don't know one thing about god. you don't even know if god exists!

God doesn't tell you about standards though. The voice in your head does. The voice that is part of your splintered personality. Hey, and guess what? That voice agrees with you! How convenient!

You don't know that God exists either. You just have a mental condition. Did you bother to read any of the articles by Michael Persinger, who demonstrated religious experiences can be recreated in the lab? I bet you daren't.

 

[cosmictraveler]

People must do what they can here and now for themselves. If they cannot stay together without a marriage contract how are they going to do so with one?

 

[(Q)]

my mom had been married 9 times before she died...

i have been married once..

almost had a common law wife ..we did plan on getting married...

It looks like you haven't read your bible. If your mom was a Christian, she is burning in hell right now, no offense. It's just that one can only marry once and if they get divorced, they are not allowed to marry again as that is considered adultery in the eyes of your god.

You too are not allowed to marry again or you will be an adulterer and burn in hell.

Better check your "good book" before making any rash decisions.

 

[(Q)]

to say that good things have good consequences and bad things have bad consequences is not psychosis.

It most certainly is if an invisible sky fairy is telling you what is good and what is bad and what the consequences are...

 

[(Q)]

back then i was fornicating.

and about a decade ago i decided that if i wasn't going to be married, then i wasn't going to have sex, and for all intents and purposes, those two things, marriage and sex, were one in the same.

nobody does that so they can talk shit.

LOL. Perfect shit talk!

 

[river-wind]

It's just that one can only marry once and if they get divorced, they are not allowed to marry again as that is considered adultery in the eyes of your god.

Don't ignore the exception clause. Divorce is hated by god, but is allowable in cases of fornication.

Matthew 5:32: "But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."

Also, remarriage is allowed if the original spouse has died, as the marriage vow is "until death".

 

[phlogistician]

Also, remarriage is allowed if the original spouse has died, as the marriage vow is "until death".

Yeah, but Lori fucked a bunch of guys, some of whom aren't dead, so she's still 'married' to one of them by her recent standards. I say 'standards' in the loosest meaning, of course.

She seems to think that because she had a different attitude towards sleeping around when she did it, it doesn't count now.

But then these born agains can do amazing mental gymnastics to brush the sins off their back, can't they?

I mean, the voice Lori hears in her head, tells her it's OK. She calls that voice God, and that make everything she feels bad about all better. Ah, personal absolution from a fragment of her personality. Ain't it special?

 

[Lori_7]

LOL. Perfect shit talk!

deciding something is shit talk? is it shit talk when you decide something, or only when i do?

 

[Lori_7]

Yeah, but Lori fucked a bunch of guys, some of whom aren't dead, so she's still 'married' to one of them by her recent standards. I say 'standards' in the loosest meaning, of course.

She seems to think that because she had a different attitude towards sleeping around when she did it, it doesn't count now.

But then these born agains can do amazing mental gymnastics to brush the sins off their back, can't they?

like what, 8 years of celibacy? haha! you try it...it is amazing.

 

[Lori_7]

People must do what they can here and now for themselves. If they cannot stay together without a marriage contract how are they going to do so with one?

exactly. it's just passing the buck.

if things like contracts and ceremonies support something real and meaningful, then great...whatever. those things are nothing but products of our society. it's when those things replace something real and meaningful that everything's in the toilet. that something that is real and meaningful doesn't come from society, it is something that comes from inside you. it's not contingent on anything but your own desires and intentions and behavior. i think it's easier to place responsibility and accountability with an institution rather than ourselves, but not as worth while.

 

[river-wind]

like what, 8 years of celibacy? haha! you try it...it is amazing.

It does have an aspect of rewarding freedom, but he is right that it doesn't change the state of things regarding the rules of adultery in the NT.

While they aren't being very polite about it, both (Q) and phlogistician are pointing out a logical conclusion from your earlier statements: if sex equates to marriage, and a person had sex, then they are married. Given that presumption, if the Bible is Truth, then the stance the bible holds on divorce means that a person who had sex (and was therefor married) who is not currently with that initial partner, for any reason other than fornication on the part of the other person, is guilty of adultery.

Being "Born Again in Christ" means that one must give up previous ways, and that previous sins are forgiven. However, those previous sins must not be continued; previous homosexual activity is forgiven, but homosexual activity after being born again is new sin requiring further confession and forgiveness. The original "marriage" is not wiped away, as it was not a sin; any sexual union after being born again, with anyone other than the original partner/spouse, would therefor be sinful.

Within the confines of the bible, the only logical way I could see to get around this is 1) if sex is an important part of marriage, but still distinct from marriage (which you don't agree with) or 2) if the born again individual were to claim that after the breakup of the first relationship, the other partner committed adultery which is grounds for divorce post being born again. However, since the actions were mutual, this logic would seem to be a real stretch to justify - particularly if both parties converted to Christianity, and both had previous sins wiped clean.

 

[phlogistician]

like what, 8 years of celibacy? haha! you try it...it is amazing.

How does this constitute a reply to my post?

Or have you given up trying to make a defence?