So what is the atheist position on marriage and extra-marital sex and fidelity?
As an atheist, do you believe in a conscience?
As an atheist, do you believe in a conscience?
what defines marriage?
- Thread starter Lori_7
- Start date
Adstar,
Yes, well I would assume that he is powerful enough to see through the phonies. But we have been through this before.
If I am a mass murderer, but I truly believe in my heart that Jesus is my savior then I get in.
Not only that, but per you and others. I as a parent or husband of the murdered would forgive this mass murderer because I would be fundamentally changed.
People like me ?
Do they, if they truly believe in their heart that Jesus is their savior, get into heaven no matter how bad they have sinned or not ?
Yes, well I would assume that he is powerful enough to see through the phonies. But we have been through this before.
If I am a mass murderer, but I truly believe in my heart that Jesus is my savior then I get in.
Not only that, but per you and others. I as a parent or husband of the murdered would forgive this mass murderer because I would be fundamentally changed.
People like me ?
Do they, if they truly believe in their heart that Jesus is their savior, get into heaven no matter how bad they have sinned or not ?
what you're suggesting would require more external validation than what i am, and you just can't stand it. i mean, you don't even believe in god, what the hell do you care? you just can't resist trying to nail a christian to a wall. well...fail.
because you're trying to tell me you've never heard of taking someone's virginity.
why do you think a lot of other people don't see it that way?
i tend to think that a lot of people hate themselves, so it makes it ok, or maybe even inevitable to treat others badly.
Could you re-state the first part:
"why do you think a lot of other people don't see it that way?"
Don't see what that way ? thanks.
As far as treating others badly, that probably is a reason for some.
But I don't think anyone has the market cornered in that department. Christians Muslims Atheist and all in between are just as capable of being a monster as they are a saint.
I mean why do you think a lot of people don't agree with you and treat others like they themselves want to be treated?
Do you think you're capable of always treating other people the way you want to be treated?
In this life I think you're doing well if you can manage to figure out how you'd like to be treated. It takes an open mind.
Lori,
Thanks for clarifying.
I think it is for a lot of reasons, all unique and mostly having to do with how they were raised and the environment in which they grew up.
it would be fair to say that all of us have our bad days and all of us make mistakes or have made mistakes in how we behave and treat others.
We often treat the ones we care about the most the worst at times. And then feel horrible about it later.
No, not always.
Here: http://www.peace.ca/kindergarten.htm
Thanks for clarifying.
I think it is for a lot of reasons, all unique and mostly having to do with how they were raised and the environment in which they grew up.
it would be fair to say that all of us have our bad days and all of us make mistakes or have made mistakes in how we behave and treat others.
We often treat the ones we care about the most the worst at times. And then feel horrible about it later.
No, not always.
Here: http://www.peace.ca/kindergarten.htm
Jesus said you have to be like a child to enter the kingdom.
m2c..
if you are a mass murder and accepted jesus into your heart you would no longer be a mass murder, if you murdered after you accepted jesus into your heart,well.. that is the question, right?
the problem with treating others the way you want to be treated is most ppl don't know how they want to be treated..
and then it can be like 'i like to be hit,it means they care' does that make it acceptable for him to hit someone else even if thats the way he wants to be treated?..(the word 'hit' is just a convenience word,im sure there are others that would fit just as well)..
yes we should not ignore how bad we mess up,but how 'bad' should not be the only thing we focus on. every person on earth has the ability to point at what someone else is doing wrong..that's easy..
the hard part is analyzing our own imperfections without feeling worthless..
it does not help to have someone constantly telling you what you are doing wrong..(Q,dyw
)
it does require a certain amount of emotional moderation towards everyone to be able to not regret an emotional state of mind.
this is true.
dinner is smelling good..and i still gotta get a shower...so..bfn
if you are a mass murder and accepted jesus into your heart you would no longer be a mass murder, if you murdered after you accepted jesus into your heart,well.. that is the question, right?
the problem with treating others the way you want to be treated is most ppl don't know how they want to be treated..
and then it can be like 'i like to be hit,it means they care' does that make it acceptable for him to hit someone else even if thats the way he wants to be treated?..(the word 'hit' is just a convenience word,im sure there are others that would fit just as well)..
its not how bad you mess up, but how well you fix it..
yes we should not ignore how bad we mess up,but how 'bad' should not be the only thing we focus on. every person on earth has the ability to point at what someone else is doing wrong..that's easy..
the hard part is analyzing our own imperfections without feeling worthless..
it does not help to have someone constantly telling you what you are doing wrong..(Q,dyw
)we tend to be more emotionally comfortable with our family..
it does require a certain amount of emotional moderation towards everyone to be able to not regret an emotional state of mind.
this is true.
dinner is smelling good..and i still gotta get a shower...so..bfn
You would have to believe that your sins (including the murders) where sins. If you believed Jesus then yes you would be forgiven your sins. (including the murders)
I don't know about the "fundamentally changed" part of that statement. I was a sinner before i believed Jesus and i am today still a sinner. Although i am a changed person i have not been fundamentally changed into a sinless individuel.
As a follower of Jesus i am called on to forgive others their sins against me and that is very hard. ( So another reason why being a Christian is not as easy as you assume).
So for you jpappl one who wants to see punishment/revenge meeted out to those who have sinned, even if they are repentant. How can you ever expect to have eternity with God? How can you ever expect or ask for Gods forgivness for your own transgressions when you stand against Gods forgivness for others throught the atonment of the Messiah Jesus? When you declare it wrong.
Anyone who accepts the Atonement of the Messiah Jesus for the forgivness of their sins (excluding the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit) shall be forgiven all their sins no matter what they have done. This is the wonderful revealtion of the Gospel and i think it is marvelous.
People who reject this and wish for this forgivness to be withheld from others will have the same loving gift withheld from themselves. And be assured, Everyone Needs this Gift.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Can you try that again, and make sense please?
Lori:
Or the same father whoring his daughters becuase he did not want to compromise strangers we're told were sweet angels?
Or that clever way your religion teaches you to crawl like an animal yet somehow convinces you that you're walking side by side with your god, and that the mud on your clothes and the scent of manure in your hair is the humility of Wisdom and Love and not the result of crawling in filth like an animal.
That, to me, is by far more perverse than porn, than the filthiest language, than gore, than sexual deviance, than murder, torture or lies.
A book crippled by a schizophrenia of hateful love, vengeful tolerance, pious arroangence, in the name of some spiteful sadist one is required a pretense of "knowing", whose feet one must wash with their hair, that is beyond loathing.
Its disgusting.
And that you, crawling from fix to fix, a tiny hermit crab of an addict embracing the toxins eating a hole through her soul actually believing its your salvation is, by far, more disgusting than what you just termed 'shit'.
Edit:
By the by, invoking preconceived notions like "Jesus" makes you religious, Miss Lori McSeven, you cannot treat ideas the way you do all your other addictions.
You mean like Lot having sex with his daugthers?
Or the same father whoring his daughters becuase he did not want to compromise strangers we're told were sweet angels?
Or that clever way your religion teaches you to crawl like an animal yet somehow convinces you that you're walking side by side with your god, and that the mud on your clothes and the scent of manure in your hair is the humility of Wisdom and Love and not the result of crawling in filth like an animal.
That, to me, is by far more perverse than porn, than the filthiest language, than gore, than sexual deviance, than murder, torture or lies.
A book crippled by a schizophrenia of hateful love, vengeful tolerance, pious arroangence, in the name of some spiteful sadist one is required a pretense of "knowing", whose feet one must wash with their hair, that is beyond loathing.
Its disgusting.
And that you, crawling from fix to fix, a tiny hermit crab of an addict embracing the toxins eating a hole through her soul actually believing its your salvation is, by far, more disgusting than what you just termed 'shit'.
Edit:
By the by, invoking preconceived notions like "Jesus" makes you religious, Miss Lori McSeven, you cannot treat ideas the way you do all your other addictions.
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Enmos
Valued Senior Member
Does that mean that all the people he murdered will be alive again?
Kristians Kausing Konflict
They will tell you that you'll go to hell if you don't tow their doctrines. No one but their god will send you to hell, clearly this god is totally psychotic and the belief system does nothing more than teach this psychosis to it's followers.
Yes, you are still a mass murderer as the bodies you laid in the ground don't come back to life and the families you devastated are still devastated. No amount of believing in Jeebus is going to change that.
Bullshit.
Complete bullshit. That is the problem with religion is that it gives you ample room to commit any atrocity you want and then turn to Jeebus and that will make it all better. Psychotic.
it does not help to have someone constantly telling you what you are doing wrong..(Q,dyw
Like your psychotic god?
Wash being your posts, too, they smell very bad.
river-wind
Valued Senior Member
This seemed to be directed at me.
Marriage: http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2582535&postcount=15
Fidelity: Fidelity is defined as loyalty or faithfulness. I don't think that fidelity on it's own can be considered a valid moral foundation - for instance, loyalty to the immoral is certainly not an honorable behavior. Loyalty within an intimate relationship, however, has its benefits.
Love: There are various types of love, from the general empathy for other living things that most people have to a certain extent, to the burning self-sacrificial attachment a parent has for their child. The strength of the connection between two adults can be a very powerful and beneficial thing, improving the quality of life for both individuals. This connection need not be limited to intimate individuals, but can extend to a group of strong friendships which create a strong social group. When it is stronger than the love of friendship, there is potential for even more benefit for the people involved, but it must be approached carefully.
In general, love if founded by compassion; for the shift of focus from selfish desires for your own happiness to a desire for the happiness of another. Pure love would be the perfection of this state of being; loving all others are yourself, and hating all suffering by all beings as strongly as you detest you own pain. This is really hard to do; it is not our natural state of being.
Extra-marital sex: Physical intimacy is one part of a larger set of behaviors which are risky but potentially rewarding. The risk/reward of each behavior needs to be inspected, and carefully approached to maximize the benefit for each person while minimizing the potential risk. Opening oneself emotionally to another person is very risky, but has the potential for a the creation of a wonderfully sustaining relationship of trust between people. Sex, similarly is potentially risky, but can provide great rewards when handled responsibly. In both cases, the most important part of acting responsibly is choosing your partner wisely. Realistic and brutally honest consideration of the chances of being hurt, and of the chances for your own imperfections hurting them (and thus yourself as well) is necessary.
Particularly for the woman, whose personal space/physical body is invaded (Guys, think about someone else sticking their finger in your nose. Don't like the idea? Yeah.), sex can have very powerful effects, not even considering the chances of pregnancy and disease. Irresponsible use of sex can cause severe emotional or physical distress, create addiction and destructive dependency, and even create life-long damage.
Conclusion: In my personal exploration of this, I have concluded that while intimate emotional and sexual relationships do not have to be monogamous in order to be healthy and fulfilling in theory, the complexity of having multiple relationships of that kind is in itself likely non-tenable, for two main reasons: jealousy and emergent complexity.
While multiple people, in theory, could all be responsible individuals acting for the benefit and happiness of all others in the group at a perfect level of pure compassion and affection, humans are generally not capable of such behavior. Due to this, selfish wants for more of a certain person in the group will likely lead to factions and jealousy and frustration and anger. In addition, unpredictable or perceived negative events which unbalance the factual situation of individuals in the group in emergent ways, can cause some members strife, which in turn will cause annoyance towards the member who introduced that "problem" - likely also resulting in factions, jealousy, frustrations and anger (in this case, I'm specifically thinking of what would happen if one person caught a disease and either spread it to the rest of the group (leading to anger), or that person was cut out from the group due to the potential for spreading disease (leading, again, to anger)).
It seems to me that selfish human desire would prevent the long-term existence of a healthy intimate multi-party relationship.
Given the difficulties of life, it is even hard to manage a single healthy intimate relationship; monogamy is not, to me, a godly decree or a moral absolute: it is the likely highest level of complexity that the human being has a chance of making work during a single lifetime. A devoted promise between two individuals to focus attention and love on only each other has, in my mind, the most realistic chances of providing the benefits of intimate emotional and physical connection with the smallest risk of contracting disease, having accidental children that can't be cared for, or being hurt emotionally in a permanently damaging way; generally by limiting the action of jealousy and the risk of introducing outside unbalancing influences (such as disease).
Love vs Marriage: Marriage is an artificial construction, a ceremonial public promise. Honest love is the natural, meaningful act of caring more for another than for yourself, and to me, the only thing really worthwhile. Marriage requires love, love does not require marriage.
Greater love and celibacy
There also exists a downside to creating a single point of focus for one's intimate love. By choosing to love one person more than all others, you build a wall between yourself and the rest of humanity. True and pure perfect love, IMO, *must require* the lack of such walls, and therefor to me, the lack of such a choice. For about 6 years, I chose to avoid intimate relationships for the sake of loving all of humanity; for the hope of devoting myself to helping all of humanity. Then my father pushed me into trying to have an intimate relationship one last time, and I met my "girlfriend"/effective wife. I have for her, all devotion of a husband, and I maintain that by choosing to be selfish daily - doing what makes me happy (loving and caring for her), rather than what I feel to be morally nobler - the sacrifice of my own desires for the sake of devoting everything of myself to helping other suffering beings.
I don't have to believe in it, I have it. I can test and verify it by acting selfishly and selflessly, and seeing how such behaviors effect my emotional state.
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