What are the DEMONS intentions?

[water]

Cottontop3000,


I feel with you. More than I can say in open forums.

But this is my life. This is what I have lived with for 35 years. I've always wanted to be good and godly. I've rarely succeeded. I have been scared of myself for about 9 years now,

And all this because of a simple, stupid, stupid error of thinking that
you are your anger,
you are your sadness,
you are your violence,
you are your failing,
you are your mistakes,
you are your impatience,
you are your abnormality,
you are whatever you do,
you are whatever you feel,
you are whatever happened to you,
you are whatever anyone did to you.

This "I = [certain characteristic or action]" way of defining a person's identity is very common, and very harmful. Most uf us have been trained into it.

It seems that it does the worst on people who are naturally very sensible and perceptive. Whatever wrong they do, they feel it much stronger, and if conditioned with the "I = what I have done" pattern, a simple moment of ill temper takes on colossal proportions. One can devour oneself in shame and guilt the whole day for accidentally steping on someone's foot while in the queue for the morning bus.
But somehow, a balancing mechanism sets in, and a need to do greater harm comes up, as if to balance out the great hatred and shame that one feels.

I'm telling you all this because I need to, or I'm afraid I am going to lose my place in this world. Because I'm still trying to find answers, honestly trying to find answers. Trying to stop myself from hurting, and hurting others. Honestly trying to find something good in this world. I see so much anger and hate on this board. I see it all around me everyday when I am outside my house. I hear it at night. I can't help but see or hear it, though, no, I don't hear voices or see things that I shouldn't see. I see this anger and hate in our history. I see it in the history of the world. I see it in my dogs. I see it in nature. I see it in me. Every time I see it, I either cry or get angry. I rarely am able to see any good in the world.

Yes, one sees in the world what one (thinks) one is. This is also a consequence of the "I = [my certain characteristic or action]" thinking.

This makes me want to die. So, I come here and I do this. Why, because nothing else has worked. Medicine hasn't worked, counselling hasn't. Family hasn't. Church hasn't. God hasn't. I haven't.

And they haven't worked for the same reason as I mention above.
God and people are trying to talk to *you*, not to your violence, or your depression, your anger, or you shame etc.
But what you see of yourself and what you turn to other people is that violence, depression, anger, shame etc.
No wonder you can't reach through to them, and they can't reach through to you.

Maybe because I did see something refreshing in Water last night that gave me hope. Read some of her threads starting from last year. Maybe you will see something like what I saw, maybe not. I do know I don't want to see her hurt anymore either, here or anywhere. Nor any of the rest of you.

And this is the real you speaking. I can hear you.

I can tell you this, I need there to be a God, though I feel like I hate Him most of the time.

I know how this is.

I need to pay for what I've done. At this point, I don't really know if I care though.

I know this too.

I do want you to know where I'm coming from. I expect someone will condemn me for this, and that is fine; you can't hurt me anymore than I hurt myself. If you try to hurt me more, fine. I really wouldn't be surprised, as you may be able to tell, I don't have a very high regard for humanity in general, myself in particular.

And this, I know very well too.


* * *

Assuming God exists, why did God create man?

This is just my belief, but I believe God had lots of joy creating.
I can just imagine, how He, with the grave, serious joy like children have, went to Create.

Not to antromorphize -- but humans have only their human way of seeing things, and I believe that it is humanly true to God if we say that He Created with joy.

(There is a special meaning if you capitalize a verb.)

Also, was there evil before God created man?

No, I do not believe so. Evil is when the created turn away from God. Since, being the created, they are by the act of creation, separate from God.
I think that to God, evil is not even nearly as bad as it is to us.

Or, is there no God, no good, no evil?

If you don't need them and don't want them, then they don't exist.
This is NOT to say that a person who wants and needs God, creates himself an illusionary god, and that thus, ANY god is necessarily illusionary. Many gods certainly are illusionary. All those gods where you can still be, regardless whether they are or not, are false gods or illusionary gods. The only true God is the One where you realize that without Him, you are nothing and cannot be without Him.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Crunchy Cat,

No, solipsism says that the rug is the product of your brain, and you have no way of proving otherwise, as to you, everything is a product of your brain. So solipsism.

And Solpsism fails to acknowledge that external stimulus is the product of
the external. It's flawed any way you look at it.

I think, so far, that the only god you would accept is the god of necessity. If it could be shown that a god (with the characteristics of the Christian God, for example) is a necessity, then you'd believe in that god -- for you had reason to believe in him.

A god is only a necessity if you want what said god offers. You don't want what JHVH offers, so He is not a necessity for you.

I really see no reason to bug around this any longer. You don't want to know God, and nobody can make you want that. You only want to know whether God is a necessity, or not. No *person* can prove that to you.

That's acceptance of multiple assertions as truth without supportive
evidence and with contradictive evidence. In other words, your conclusions
are 'beliefs'. 'God', 'Demons', and any other fantastic beings are supposed to
exist today. So where are they? Provide evidence they exist and every
Atheist on this forum will no longer be an Atheist. Can you do this?

Hah! That's interesting.

* * *

The title of this thread is somehow telling ...

Welcome to reality and do please finish up that second sentence.

 

[water]

Crunchy Cat,

And Solpsism fails to acknowledge that external stimulus is the product of
the external. It's flawed any way you look at it.

In solipsisim, NOTHING is external! There are no external stimuli, there is just one big omnipotent you, and EVERYTHING is happening in you, you are the one doing it.
Solipsism is internally consistent, and thus irrefutable.

That's acceptance of multiple assertions as truth without supportive
evidence and with contradictive evidence.

What? You want to get to know God? But on your terms, right, not God's?
You want to manage God around ...

In other words, your conclusions
are 'beliefs'. 'God', 'Demons', and any other fantastic beings are supposed to
exist today. So where are they? Provide evidence they exist and every
Atheist on this forum will no longer be an Atheist. Can you do this?

For one, I have no desire to prove anything to you. I'm telling you where proof brings you: you believe the proof, but not the thing it is supposed to prove.

You do believe in God, in your own way -- you believe it is a fantasy. If you define something to be a fantasy, nothing can disprove it, and thus prove it to be a real thing. Define God to be a fantasy, and God will forever remain that to you.


I don't know why you wonder about God so much.


For two, you can write off *everything*, all contents of our mind that we are aware of, as beliefs.

For the thousandth time:


From Quine's "Two dogmas of empiricism":

The totality of our so-called knowledge or beliefs, from the most casual matters of geography and history to the profoundest laws of atomic physics or even of pure mathematics and logic, is a man-made fabric which impinges on experience only along the edges. Or, to change the figure, total science is like a field of force whose boundary conditions are experience. A conflict with experience at the periphery occasions readjustments in the interior of the field. Truth values have to be redistributed over some of our statements. Re-evaluation of some statements entails re-evaluation of others, because of their logical interconnections -- the logical laws being in turn simply certain further statements of the system, certain further elements of the field. Having re-evaluated one statement we must re-evaluate some others, whether they be statements logically connected with the first or whether they be the statements of logical connections themselves. But the total field is so undetermined by its boundary conditions, experience, that there is much latitude of choice as to what statements to re-evaluate in the light of any single contrary experience. No particular experiences are linked with any particular statements in the interior of the field, except indirectly through considerations of equilibrium affecting the field as a whole.​

* * *

Welcome to reality

Aha. And reality is ... only what hurts, right?

and do please finish up that second sentence.

Shoot, yes! What are the demons' intentions ...

Oh reader, behold the philosopher's grave:
He was born quite a fool, but he died quite a knave.

 

[Cottontop3000]

And all this because of a simple, stupid, stupid error of thinking that
you are your anger,
you are your sadness,
you are your violence,
you are your failing,
you are your mistakes,
you are your impatience,
you are your abnormality,
you are whatever you do,
you are whatever you feel,
you are whatever happened to you,
you are whatever anyone did to you.

This "I = [certain characteristic or action]" way of defining a person's identity is very common, and very harmful. Most uf us have been trained into it.

Please tell me the other way you think we can we define our identities? My thoughts, desires and instincts lead to certain actions, those actions may or may not redefine my thinking, my new (or old) thinking leads to new actions, and round and round we go. To me, this is a continuity that can't be broken (in life anyway). So how do you think I should define my identity, other than as the sum of all my actions (which are my thoughts and desires and instincts)?

Also, I've noticed that Kalomiros and others make a distinction between who we are and what we do. As if they are two separate things. I, personally, don't see it. But say they are two separate things, how can we possibly change WHAT we are, if not through what we think, and therefore, do? Or are you saying that this is not up to us, but up to God? If, then, it is only up to God, then what is the point of trying to change, if you don't think that your actions (thoughts) will make any change to what you actually are, in God's eyes?

It seems that it does the worst on people who are naturally very sensible and perceptive. Whatever wrong they do, they feel it much stronger, and if conditioned with the "I = what I have done" pattern, a simple moment of ill temper takes on colossal proportions. One can devour oneself in shame and guilt the whole day for accidentally steping on someone's foot while in the queue for the morning bus.
But somehow, a balancing mechanism sets in, and a need to do greater harm comes up, as if to balance out the great hatred and shame that one feels.

Something kicks in, that's for sure. Would you call it evil? Would you call it what I am?

And they haven't worked for the same reason as I mention above.
God and people are trying to talk to *you*, not to your violence, or your depression, your anger, or you shame etc.
But what you see of yourself and what you turn to other people is that violence, depression, anger, shame etc.
No wonder you can't reach through to them, and they can't reach through to you.

I know what your point is, but how does someone talk to my depression without going through me? They can't, can they? Therefore, I have to let them talk to it, without getting defensive or angry, right? That's your point? Well, if it is, I do that 4 hours a week. I'm open, honest, and receive what they say with an open heart. But it doesn't work. Why? Because I don't really want to change, I guess. That is the only conclusion that I can come to. If, deep down, I really don't want to change, then I guess that makes me evil. According to Eastern Orthodox Christianity, right? Kalomiros? Or, am I somehow deceiving myself into thinking that nothing is working? Because I'm scared of getting better. Believe me, the thought of getting better is scary. I just don't know. I'm just gonna keep trying. Man, I wish I could just turn off my brain sometimes. You know, go on auto-pilot or something.

And this is the real you speaking. I can hear you.

Thanks. It's good to hear that. From you and Crunchy Cat both.

This is just my belief, but I believe God had lots of joy creating.
I can just imagine, how He, with the grave, serious joy like children have, went to Create.

I can see it, I just don't know if I can believe it. I feel like I'm betraying my inner-most self by either wanting to or trying to. I feel like I'm not being honest with myself, deep down in my gut.

Not to antromorphize -- but humans have only their human way of seeing things, and I believe that it is humanly true to God if we say that He Created with joy.

(There is a special meaning if you capitalize a verb.)

You Believe? In me or God or both? Or did I get the wrong verb?

CT3000: Did evil exist prior to God creating us?

No, I do not believe so. Evil is when the created turn away from God. Since, being the created, they are by the act of creation, separate from God.I think that to God, evil is not even nearly as bad as it is to us.

I hope you're right about the last part, if God does exist. As to your first sentence, though, how could a Good God exist without evil to define it? If evil did exist prior to man's creation, which I think it had to, then why did God let it come into our lives? Could He not prevent it? Or did He choose to let it?

I think I know what your answer will be, but I'm just asking you to reconsider why you believe that. I'm kind of playing devil's advocate myself, something I've accused you of before.

The only true God is the One where you realize that without Him, you are nothing and cannot be without Him.

Maybe. I don't know. What if I'm the only true God for me? What if each of us is the only true God for ourselves? Does it really matter?

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Crunchy Cat,

In solipsisim, NOTHING is external! There are no external stimuli, there is just one big omnipotent you, and EVERYTHING is happening in you, you are the one doing it.
Solipsism is internally consistent, and thus irrefutable.

That first sentense is the point and the flaw. Consider this, in the solipsist
world, accepting that you can bask in a ranging fire without being harmed
would result in you basing in a raging fire without being harmed... because
you are omnipotent.

If a person does this then they will be crispy fried; hence, reality contradicted
solipsism with the external.

What? You want to get to know God? But on your terms, right, not God's?
You want to manage God around ...

I understand why Medicine Woman gets frustrated. I wouldn't consider
getting to know an entity until I know it exists. Replace 'God' with 'Invisible
Pink Unicorn' in those questions and read how ludicrous it really is.

For one, I have no desire to prove anything to you. I'm telling you where proof brings you: you believe the proof, but not the thing it is supposed to prove.

Proof gets you closer to truth. It's that simple. The lack of desire to supply
evidence for some very fantastic claims communicates a very clear message.

You do believe in God, in your own way -- you believe it is a fantasy. If you define something to be a fantasy, nothing can disprove it, and thus prove it to be a real thing. Define God to be a fantasy, and God will forever remain that to you.

This is incorrect. Both 'God' and the 'Easter Bunny' are claims with no
supportive evidence and plenty of contradicting evidence. They are beliefs
of the fantastic and when people accept them as truth they become fantasy
by definition.

For two, you can write off *everything*, all contents of our mind that we are aware of, as beliefs.

It's not a matter of writing things off. It's a matter of truth. Reality simply
contradicts alot of 'beliefs'.

For the thousandth time:


From Quine's "Two dogmas of empiricism":

The totality of our so-called knowledge or beliefs, from the most casual matters of geography and history to the profoundest laws of atomic physics or even of pure mathematics and logic, is a man-made fabric which impinges on experience only along the edges. Or, to change the figure, total science is like a field of force whose boundary conditions are experience. A conflict with experience at the periphery occasions readjustments in the interior of the field. Truth values have to be redistributed over some of our statements. Re-evaluation of some statements entails re-evaluation of others, because of their logical interconnections -- the logical laws being in turn simply certain further statements of the system, certain further elements of the field. Having re-evaluated one statement we must re-evaluate some others, whether they be statements logically connected with the first or whether they be the statements of logical connections themselves. But the total field is so undetermined by its boundary conditions, experience, that there is much latitude of choice as to what statements to re-evaluate in the light of any single contrary experience. No particular experiences are linked with any particular statements in the interior of the field, except indirectly through considerations of equilibrium affecting the field as a whole.​

I don't agree with this person's statement. Reality is what it is and we use
reality as a tool to help us understand it.

* * *

Aha. And reality is ... only what hurts, right?

er... I was referring to 'Welcome to a reality so diverse that we even
have a Furry population'.

Shoot, yes! What are the demons' intentions ...

Oh reader, behold the philosopher's grave:
He was born quite a fool, but he died quite a knave.

Riiight... what demons? What are the phyical and behaviral measurements of
demons? Can you show me one?

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Oops forgot one:

I don't know why you wonder about God so much.

Answer: I find it fascinating to observe the behaviors and reasonings of people whose interpreation or reality so distant from reality itself.

 

[water]

Cottontop3000,

Please tell me the other way you think we can we define our identities?
My thoughts, desires and instincts lead to certain actions, those actions may or may not redefine my thinking, my new (or old) thinking leads to new actions, and round and round we go. To me, this is a continuity that can't be broken (in life anyway). So how do you think I should define my identity, other than as the sum of all my actions (which are my thoughts and desires and instincts)?

Imagine you take all those other things away. Is there anything left?

Also, I've noticed that Kalomiros and others make a distinction between who we are and what we do. As if they are two separate things. I, personally, don't see it.

Yes, this is a practical distinction.
And I can also understand how you don't see it.

But say they are two separate things, how can we possibly change WHAT we are, if not through what we think, and therefore, do?

What we think and do only clarifies what we presently are. Through what we think and do, we get to know who we are. That is, we cannot know ourselves in a vacuum, not thinking and doing anything.

Or are you saying that this is not up to us, but up to God? If, then, it is only up to God, then what is the point of trying to change, if you don't think that your actions (thoughts) will make any change to what you actually are, in God's eyes?

I don't think this is up to God, but God can help in this.

Something kicks in, that's for sure. Would you call it evil?

Yes.

Would you call it what I am?

No.

And they haven't worked for the same reason as I mention above.
God and people are trying to talk to *you*, not to your violence, or your depression, your anger, or you shame etc.
But what you see of yourself and what you turn to other people is that violence, depression, anger, shame etc.
No wonder you can't reach through to them, and they can't reach through to you.

I know what your point is, but how does someone talk to my depression without going through me?

They want to talk to *you*, not to your depression.

I'm open, honest, and receive what they say with an open heart. But it doesn't work. Why? Because I don't really want to change, I guess. That is the only conclusion that I can come to.

I think it doesn't work because instead of you, your depression etc. speak for you.
That is, since it is hard for you to distinguish between you and your depression, what is being said to you tends to not reach the address, so to speak.

As for you not wanting to change: Maybe. Hell is a matter of complacency. Complacency is a matter of hell.

If, deep down, I really don't want to change, then I guess that makes me evil.

Alright.
Would you take the path that leads away from all this (depression, trouble, ...)?

According to Eastern Orthodox Christianity, right? Kalomiros?

I am not Orthodox nor of any particular religion, so I can't make qualified assessments of that kind. I only found that article to bring across some useful clarifications.

Or, am I somehow deceiving myself into thinking that nothing is working? Because I'm scared of getting better. Believe me, the thought of getting better is scary.

Definitely. The thought of getting better is one of the scariest things. (I don't know why, but it is.)

I just don't know. I'm just gonna keep trying. Man, I wish I could just turn off my brain sometimes. You know, go on auto-pilot or something.

Oh yes.
Not that it works.

I can see it, I just don't know if I can believe it. I feel like I'm betraying my inner-most self by either wanting to or trying to. I feel like I'm not being honest with myself, deep down in my gut.

That's alright.

Not to antromorphize -- but humans have only their human way of seeing things, and I believe that it is humanly true to God if we say that He Created with joy.

(There is a special meaning if you capitalize a verb.)

You Believe? In me or God or both? Or did I get the wrong verb?

I capitalized "Created".
I believe in you.

CT3000: Did evil exist prior to God creating us?

I don't believe so.

I hope you're right about the last part, if God does exist. As to your first sentence, though, how could a Good God exist without evil to define it?

He just did. It is humans who think in paired concepts, and seem to be unable to do otherwise.

If evil did exist prior to man's creation, which I think it had to, then why did God let it come into our lives? Could He not prevent it? Or did He choose to let it?

Like I said, I don't believe evil existed prior the creation of man.
If you are wondering why God lets evil exist now -- that's another topic.

Maybe. I don't know. What if I'm the only true God for me? What if each of us is the only true God for ourselves?

Hehe. But what kind of god?! An omnimax one? Surely not.

Does it really matter?

Oh yes. What you believe yourself to be matters in how you lead your life and who you know yourself to be.



* * *

Crunchy Cat,

That first sentense is the point and the flaw. Consider this, in the solipsist
world, accepting that you can bask in a ranging fire without being harmed
would result in you basing in a raging fire without being harmed... because
you are omnipotent.

If a person does this then they will be crispy fried; hence, reality contradicted
solipsism with the external.

As far as I know, solipsism doesn't exist as a philosophy per se, with followers who would publicly proclaim to be solipists. In practice, consequent solipsism is a psychosis.

I understand why Medicine Woman gets frustrated. I wouldn't consider
getting to know an entity until I know it exists.

But the moment you find it exists, you'd also know some of it.
You cannot first know that it exists, and upon that, decide whether you want to know it or not.

I get you. If I read of, say, Norwegian forest cats, and learn what they are like etc., I might want to consider getting one. I can inform myself about this breed, and decide whether this is the cat I would like to have.

But, this asumes that the actual cat I would get is to be more or less exactly like what the information I gathered about it said.

In other words, I am expecting that my experience will match my expectations. I set out for the known.

It's not a matter of writing things off. It's a matter of truth. Reality simply
contradicts alot of 'beliefs'.

Really? To a person, what they believe to be the truth, this, to them, is the truth.

I don't agree with this person's statement. Reality is what it is and we use
reality as a tool to help us understand it.

Okay, I call truce. Your noetic theory is (absolute) realism, mine is constructivism.
We will never find common ground, as long as we subscribe to fundamentally different noetic theories.

er... I was referring to 'Welcome to a reality so diverse that we even
have a Furry population'.

And? You think I live in a reality with no Furries?

Answer: I find it fascinating to observe the behaviors and reasonings of people whose interpreation or reality so distant from reality itself.

Yes, because you claim to have knowledge of objective reality.
But I won't discuss this anymore with you. This is the old clash of constructivism and realism, nothing else.

 

[Cottontop3000]

CT3000: If, deep down, I really don't want to change, then I guess that makes me evil.

Water: Alright. Would you take the path that leads away from all this (depression, trouble, ...)?

Yes, but I haven't found a path that works yet. I keep trying and still I stay depressed and angry, for the most part. I choose to go to the counselling; I choose to take my medicine; I choose to try. When I start doing well again, for anywhere from 1-3 months, I always end up getting tired of what I'm doing and quit (with regards to things like exercise, and laying outside in the sun, or playing with my dogs, or watering my grass, or eating healthier, things like that). They are the few things that I used to really enjoy, but now they seem pointless. I get bored with them, then I get stressed because I'm bored with them and feel like I'm failing again, then I get angry and then I quit in order to save me and everyone else more trouble than it's worth. Like this forum. Don't get me wrong, this is a great forum, but I am already getting tired of it. I'm not feeling like it's making any real difference. What have any of us really learned that we didn't already know, deep down? I'm sure that's on a case by case basis, but there comes a point when we are just arguing to be arguing, and I can't stand that. What's the point? There's nothing really new. Just the same old theories being rehashed over and over. It's been going on for centuries, with regards to God anyway. So the path that I must take, I will have to find on my own, I think. That's what most people say anyway. I'll try some of the things that Crunchy Cat suggested, and maybe I can get going again. I know that something can help, just not God in my case, perhaps. Thanks for trying though Water; that does mean a lot. I'll still be checking the boards though, just to see if something new does pop up.

See ya.

 

[Yorda]

Some short 'answers'...

So why did He create us? Or do you think He didn't? Are you a Deist? Or something else?

Like I said, I don't think God have a "reason" why he created us. The reasons can only be in the human mind. God doesn't think. Small children often ask why why why until we can't answer. Because there is no answer. Life is life, things are the way they are.

I'm not a deist, I don't know how I would categorize myself as.

So there is evil in our minds? Where is there "not" evil then?

Everything is in the mind. Without the mind, the world doesn't even exist. By believing in our personal mind, we separate ourselves from the rest of the world and make it visible.

So, when God calls His faithful home and sends the rest to burn in Hell for eternity, how can Heaven possibly be Heaven as we think of it, or are led to believe it will be?

Even if just one person goes to an eternal hell, heaven is pointless. In Hinduism it's not like this. Everyone reaches perfection and everything is predetermined.

How can you transcend good and evil and reach perfection? Can there be a perfection? Of us? Of GOD? Or do we just assume that there can be? How can there be light without darkness, etc.? Or, is there no God, no good, no evil?

Good and evil are creations of the mind, but if we forget our personal self, everything stops existing. This (the goal) will be attained through experience.

Are you saying that we can be good and evil at the same time?

If we are both good and evil at the same time, we are neither good or evil.

I think you should believe only in yourself. Find your own way. Even if what someone else says is 1000 times more true it doesn't have to be true for you.

 

[Cottontop3000]

Some short 'answers'...

Thanks Yorda. Any long ones? If not, it's okay. I get tired of writing on here sometimes myself.

If we are both good and evil at the same time, we are neither good or evil.

I tend to agree, but the key word there is if, no?

I think you should believe only in yourself. Find your own way. Even if what someone else says is 1000 times more true it doesn't have to be true for you.

Thanks again Yorda. This is, I think, all we can really do. Any of us. I just hope I'm not really a demon! I don't think so, and I'm not trying to mislead anyone. Boy, but wouldn't it be weird if one day you woke up and realized that you were the Antichrist? Boo Hah Hah !!!! :bugeye:

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Water,

Crunchy Cat,

As far as I know, solipsism doesn't exist as a philosophy per se, with followers who would publicly proclaim to be solipists. In practice, consequent solipsism is a psychosis.

I haven't really explored it to that depth either. Regardless solpsism can
be contradicted.

But the moment you find it exists, you'd also know some of it.
You cannot first know that it exists, and upon that, decide whether you want to know it or not.

I get you. If I read of, say, Norwegian forest cats, and learn what they are like etc., I might want to consider getting one. I can inform myself about this breed, and decide whether this is the cat I would like to have.

But, this asumes that the actual cat I would get is to be more or less exactly like what the information I gathered about it said.

In other words, I am expecting that my experience will match my expectations. I set out for the known.

With that Norwegian forrest cat, you can get pictures, videos, temperment
info, physiology specs, etc. These items adequately support it's existence.
The expectation problem can be easily resolved by putting expectations
aside consequently.

Really? To a person, what they believe to be the truth, this, to them, is the truth.

Accepting something as truth doesn't make it truth.

Okay, I call truce. Your noetic theory is (absolute) realism, mine is constructivism.
We will never find common ground, as long as we subscribe to fundamentally different noetic theories.

. C'mon take a walk on the wild side sweetie.

And? You think I live in a reality with no Furries?

Not at all. The original response of "Hah! That's interesting." implied surprise
of their existence.

Yes, because you claim to have knowledge of objective reality.
But I won't discuss this anymore with you. This is the old clash of constructivism and realism, nothing else.

Not at all. I would claim that I am closer to it however.

 

[water]

Cottontop3000,

Yes, but I haven't found a path that works yet.

Wege entstehen indem man sie geht.
One doesn't actually take a path, one makes it.
You're making it.

I keep trying and still I stay depressed and angry, for the most part. I choose to go to the counselling; I choose to take my medicine; I choose to try. When I start doing well again, for anywhere from 1-3 months, I always end up getting tired of what I'm doing and quit (with regards to things like exercise, and laying outside in the sun, or playing with my dogs, or watering my grass, or eating healthier, things like that). They are the few things that I used to really enjoy, but now they seem pointless. I get bored with them, then I get stressed because I'm bored with them and feel like I'm failing again, then I get angry and then I quit in order to save me and everyone else more trouble than it's worth.

You've no idea what patience you actually have!

You are able to devote yourself to an activity, just for its own sake.

But the only problem is that it seems it is you who strives to adapt to the activity, not that you would adapt the activity to yourself.

Like this forum. Don't get me wrong, this is a great forum, but I am already getting tired of it. I'm not feeling like it's making any real difference. What have any of us really learned that we didn't already know, deep down? I'm sure that's on a case by case basis, but there comes a point when we are just arguing to be arguing, and I can't stand that. What's the point?

The point is in realizing what you just have.
A way to find what something is, is to find what said thing is not -- this goes esp. for things that are hard to define. So you look in as many directions as possible.
But. At some point, you realize those not's, and to continue exploring them would mean to indulge in diversions -- and indulging diversions isn't what you want.

There's nothing really new. Just the same old theories being rehashed over and over. It's been going on for centuries, with regards to God anyway.

That's true. But while the mind goes in circles, life goes on.

So the path that I must take, I will have to find on my own, I think. That's what most people say anyway. I'll try some of the things that Crunchy Cat suggested, and maybe I can get going again. I know that something can help, just not God in my case, perhaps.

Do allow for the possibility that God is doing something, maybe just in a way you're not used to.
Many people have sky high expectations of what God should do for them -- but it only reveals that they want God to live their life for them.


* * *

Yorda,

I'm not a deist, I don't know how I would categorize myself as.

A non-religious theist?

Even if just one person goes to an eternal hell, heaven is pointless. In Hinduism it's not like this. Everyone reaches perfection and everything is predetermined.

It still takes a lot of mental acrobatics.
So if a person is homeless and with no prospects to find work, has been robbed, beaten up and raped -- this person is to hope to reach perfection? With such gaping contradictions to his own experience of reality?

Good and evil are creations of the mind, but if we forget our personal self, everything stops existing. This (the goal) will be attained through experience.

Esp. after being robbed, raped, beaten up.

I think you should believe only in yourself.

Put yourself in his shoes. And be realistic. How is he to believe in himself?

Or, take that person who has been robbed, raped and beaten up severly. You are saying such a person should "believe in himself"?
On what grounds? To believe in yourself, when you have made the profoundest experience that you cannot prevent others from destroying you?


* * *

Cottontop3000,

Thanks again Yorda. This is, I think, all we can really do. Any of us. I just hope I'm not really a demon! I don't think so, and I'm not trying to mislead anyone. Boy, but wouldn't it be weird if one day you woke up and realized that you were the Antichrist? Boo Hah Hah !!!!

If you were evil, you wouldn't mind it.


* * *


Crunchy Cat,

I haven't really explored it to that depth either. Regardless solpsism can
be contradicted.

Only if one claims to have a grasp on objective reality ...

With that Norwegian forrest cat, you can get pictures, videos, temperment
info, physiology specs, etc. These items adequately support it's existence.

But any knowledge creates expectations. The actual Norwegian forest cat that I get may be vastly different from what that information about it said.

Living beings aren't reliable robots.

Accepting something as truth doesn't make it truth.

It is truth to said person.

. C'mon take a walk on the wild side sweetie.

Been there.

Yes, because you claim to have knowledge of objective reality.
But I won't discuss this anymore with you. This is the old clash of constructivism and realism, nothing else.

Not at all. I would claim that I am closer to it however.

A beautifully consistent absolute realism you have there ...

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Water,

Crunchy Cat,

Only if one claims to have a grasp on objective reality ...

Reality will perform the contradiction on its own.

But any knowledge creates expectations. The actual Norwegian forest cat that I get may be vastly different from what that information about it said.

Living beings aren't reliable robots.

It is possible to put those expectations aside.

It is truth to said person.

And that person's intepretation would be sharply contradicted by reality
if the opportunity ever arose.

Been there.

Done that?

A beautifully consistent absolute realism you have there ...

[/QUOTE]

Ok ok... I believe a giant rosebud is stalking my corn flakes. I would hate
to be too absolute or real.

 

[Cottontop3000]

Cottontop3000
Wege entstehen indem man sie geht.
One doesn't actually take a path, one makes it.
You're making it.

I'm still trying; I have found peace, sometimes, though I might not have let that come across here too well. Some days, I really enjoy myself. Others, not so much. When I watch the news or hear something political, I get very irritated, then angry, then depressed. So, I try not to watch those types of programs too much, though I feel guilty that I'm not doing what I should with regard to the political and economic situations here in the U.S. Vicious circle, though I'm working through it. Thus, some days are better than others.

You've no idea what patience you actually have!

You are able to devote yourself to an activity, just for its own sake.

But the only problem is that it seems it is you who strives to adapt to the activity, not that you would adapt the activity to yourself.

I think you may be talking about attitude here. If so, again, I'm trying. Also, thanks for thinking that I have any patience at all.

The point is in realizing what you just have.
A way to find what something is, is to find what said thing is not -- this goes esp. for things that are hard to define. So you look in as many directions as possible.But. At some point, you realize those not's, and to continue exploring them would mean to indulge in diversions -- and indulging diversions isn't what you want.

Yes. That's good. Though maybe I was wrong, and I can still learn something here. In fact, I just did, I think.

That's true. But while the mind goes in circles, life goes on.

Yes, just BE, and recognize and accept and appreciate what you have that is good and true and pure. Recognize, also, what you have that is not so good and true and pure; once I recognize it, I forgive myself, say," it's okay CT3000," and try to do better from then on. That's what I have to do, for my peace of mind, if I really want to overcome my weaknesses and respect myself. But, I think, that once I Do forgive Myself, it becomes easier to not do the bad, harmful things anymore. Not easy, but easier. Don't expect an easy way out, at least not all the time. No "magic" pills exist either, in my experience. Nothing that will fix everything, just in case none of you have taken a lot of meds. for the mind, but are thinking about starting. Try them, if you need to, they seem to work better for a lot of people than they have for me, but don't expect too much.

Do allow for the possibility that God is doing something, maybe just in a way you're not used to.

I am.

But this, for some reason, is my biggest hang-up. I think that I feel betrayed by God. I think I feel this feeling more strongly than any other feeling I feel. Perhaps, in my opinion, because I was raised as such an idealistic, optimistic Christian, in a southern U.S. state (Texas, no less), so that when I was let loose in the world at 18 to go to college in New York, the U.S. Military Academy at West Point on the beautiful Hudson river, it was like being thrown into the coldest lake you could possibly imagine, with no clothes on. I wasn't prepared for such an abrupt change in my outlook on life. Good God, the horror. Hee Hee. Talk about hell on earth.

So, I wasn't strong enough to cope with it mentally, and though I did graduate, I suffered, and I slowly began to blame God for betraying the trust that I had in Him prior to going there. Over the next several years, I grew more and more distant from Him, turning to other things to escape my torment (perceived or not, it was Fucking Real to me), things like drugs, alcohol, violence (though the violence had been in me since I was a young kid; like you said in your last post, the anger and violence came to me through my parents, I know that, though I can't blame them because they either inherited it or were taught it too at an early age, and they tried their best to not pass it on to me and my brothers, and even though they were not completely successful, I shudder to think of what I could have been like if they hadn't tried as hard as they did.). The drugs and alcohol helped me in the short term to escape my pain, but in the long term, they made things much, much worse. It took me 12 long years, '88-'99, to go through this process of falling from grace, to get to a point where I finally said, "I give up," and quit life.

Then, over the next 5-6 years, to the present, I have slowly been digging myself back up from the grave. And even though I hold myself responsible for all that I have done in my life, good and bad, I think I still feel like I have to hold God responsible as well, for the good and the bad, because, in my eyes, if He does exist, He knew what I was going to do, and go through, when He created me somewhere in the deep, dark past, and I just don't know if I want a God that would let his creation suffer so much, regardless of what joy might or might not come in the future. Maybe I'm whining, but that's how I see it. And I know it's got to be worse for many others in this world. Worse than what I've gone through, and I just can't comprehend a God that would give us the choice and the ability to do this to ourselves. At least give us just a little more of a fighting chance. AH, but then what would be the point of that that type of existence, right? I don't know, what will be the point of an existence in Heaven with God, when we finally get there?

Many people have sky high expectations of what God should do for them -- but it only reveals that they want God to live their life for them.

[/QUOTE] In a way, you're right. But what's so wrong with that idea? I'd rather be an Adam or an Eve that's allowed to make a few mistakes before I was thrown to the wolves. Maybe, though, to God, like all the Christians say, these short lives of ours are but a blink of an eye to God. How dare I, a mere human, presume to know God? Regardless, there's nothing for it but to keep on keeping on. Life's a bitch, sometimes, but you either choose to live, or you choose to die. Which one do you think I should I choose?

Cottontop3000,
If you were evil, you wouldn't mind it.

Yeah, you are right. If you are right. :bugeye:
* * *

 

[water]

Crunchy Cat,

It is possible to put those expectations aside.

See, the thing is that the same phenomenon can be conceptualized in different ways.
You say "Put those expectations aside".
I say "Concentrate on what this phenomenon means to you and how it is towards you".

Mine is easy to follow, it takes commitment and clarity though.
Yours verges on the cognitively impossible, and demands some mental acrobatics.

Done that?

Yes.

Ok ok... I believe a giant rosebud is stalking my corn flakes. I would hate
to be too absolute or real.

See "Citizen Kane".

 

[Yorda]

I just hope I'm not really a demon! I don't think so, and I'm not trying to mislead anyone. Boy, but wouldn't it be weird if one day you woke up and realized that you were the Antichrist? Boo Hah Hah !!!! :bugeye:

Why would you be evil (or something)? If you feel guilty for something, then you're good. I have always wanted the best for everyone, yet, like everyone, I've done some bad things. How is it possible for people to do evil if they don't want to do evil? and later, they regret it. It is because people are not themselves... they are their body, which is not yet perfected. People are what they want to be.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Crunchy Cat,

See, the thing is that the same phenomenon can be conceptualized in different ways.
You say "Put those expectations aside".
I say "Concentrate on what this phenomenon means to you and how it is towards you".

Mine is easy to follow, it takes commitment and clarity though.
Yours verges on the cognitively impossible, and demands some mental acrobatics.

I think the concept of putting expectations aside sounds alot harder than
it realy is. It's easier in my opinion than suspending judgmenet.

See "Citizen Kane".

Now Mr. Kane is stalking the rosebud thats stalking my cornflakes. This is
turning into a pervers scene.

 

[water]

Cottontop3000,

I'm still trying; I have found peace, sometimes, though I might not have let that come across here too well. Some days, I really enjoy myself. Others, not so much. When I watch the news or hear something political, I get very irritated, then angry, then depressed. So, I try not to watch those types of programs too much, though I feel guilty that I'm not doing what I should with regard to the political and economic situations here in the U.S. Vicious circle, though I'm working through it. Thus, some days are better than others.

But such is life. Insisting that life must be blissful 24/7 is one of the most harmful beliefs one can hold. This belief turns the slightest discomfort into a catastrophe of cosmic proportions.

Yes. That's good. Though maybe I was wrong, and I can still learn something here. In fact, I just did, I think.

Grand then! More people know more.

Yes, just BE, and recognize and accept and appreciate what you have that is good and true and pure. Recognize, also, what you have that is not so good and true and pure; once I recognize it, I forgive myself, say," it's okay CT3000," and try to do better from then on. That's what I have to do, for my peace of mind, if I really want to overcome my weaknesses and respect myself. But, I think, that once I Do forgive Myself, it becomes easier to not do the bad, harmful things anymore. Not easy, but easier. Don't expect an easy way out, at least not all the time.

This may seem inappropriate here, but. "Groundhog day", one of the most inspiring films I have ever seen. As long as one tries to control everything, tries to succeed through conceit, manipulate others, one will never be happy, and it will be like the same day is repeating over and over again.

No "magic" pills exist either, in my experience. Nothing that will fix everything, just in case none of you have taken a lot of meds. for the mind, but are thinking about starting. Try them, if you need to, they seem to work better for a lot of people than they have for me, but don't expect too much.

I think it should work without those meds. Meds are making you into something you really aren't, and they may even alter personality in the long run.

But this, for some reason, is my biggest hang-up. I think that I feel betrayed by God.

I understand that.

I think I feel this feeling more strongly than any other feeling I feel. Perhaps, in my opinion, because I was raised as such an idealistic, optimistic Christian, in a southern U.S. state (Texas, no less), so that when I was let loose in the world at 18 to go to college in New York, the U.S. Military Academy at West Point on the beautiful Hudson river, it was like being thrown into the coldest lake you could possibly imagine, with no clothes on. I wasn't prepared for such an abrupt change in my outlook on life. Good God, the horror. Hee Hee. Talk about hell on earth.

Yes. Both Christian and non-Christian idealists tend to fall prey to believing that life is only worth living if it is 24/7 bliss, otherwise it is a catastrophe not worth living and one is better off dead than suffering for one moment.
The source of this is an unrealistic idealism that is not native to Christianity, but when it is within Christianity, it is more dangerous as it pulls in various beliefs about God and distorts His image, as well as an individual's image of himself in relation to God.
Being in bliss all the time is irresponsible escapism, it means one isn't engaging with a world where suffering is real. This backfires, and even the truly happy times aren't felt as happy anymore, as the belief that life must be bliss 24/7 disables all realistic measurements.

Then, over the next 5-6 years, to the present, I have slowly been digging myself back up from the grave. And even though I hold myself responsible for all that I have done in my life, good and bad, I think I still feel like I have to hold God responsible as well, for the good and the bad, because, in my eyes, if He does exist, He knew what I was going to do, and go through, when He created me somewhere in the deep, dark past, and I just don't know if I want a God that would let his creation suffer so much, regardless of what joy might or might not come in the future. Maybe I'm whining, but that's how I see it. And I know it's got to be worse for many others in this world. Worse than what I've gone through, and I just can't comprehend a God that would give us the choice and the ability to do this to ourselves. At least give us just a little more of a fighting chance. AH, but then what would be the point of that that type of existence, right?

Freedom is probably the most scary thing there is.
And we suffer because we wish for the wrong things, or because we cling on to perishable things, depend on them and think that without them, we are nothing.

I don't know, what will be the point of an existence in Heaven with God, when we finally get there?

I don't know about that. The Bible says people will be transformed then, be something else than what they are now, so the earthly and the heavenly state don't have much in common, I guess.
Personally, I'm not interested in what happens after death.

Many people have sky high expectations of what God should do for them -- but it only reveals that they want God to live their life for them.

In a way, you're right. But what's so wrong with that idea?

Nothing is wrong with that, and God should be expected to deliver what He promised.
The danger of having sky high expectations from God is in forgetting to do our own part, neglecting to do our own part.

I'd rather be an Adam or an Eve that's allowed to make a few mistakes before I was thrown to the wolves.

How do you mean? You think you will end up in hell automatically because you haven't been perfect from the beginning?

Maybe, though, to God, like all the Christians say, these short lives of ours are but a blink of an eye to God. How dare I, a mere human, presume to know God?

I think this is unfair to say. We do are able to know something about God.

Regardless, there's nothing for it but to keep on keeping on. Life's a bitch, sometimes, but you either choose to live, or you choose to die. Which one do you think I should I choose?

* * *


Crunchy Cat,

I think the concept of putting expectations aside sounds alot harder than
it realy is. It's easier in my opinion than suspending judgmenet.

For me, it is easier to suspend judgment than to set expectations aside. I can tell myself "Don't judge", and it works. If I tell myself "Put those expectations aside", it doesn't work.
I make an assessment of said thing or situation, but this is only with the intent to know what it is. Some people still view this as judging and then accuse me of arguing for arguing's sake. When I am in fact just trying to find out what said thing was about. The empiric method isn't very popular, for some reason ... eh.

Now Mr. Kane is stalking the rosebud thats stalking my cornflakes. This is
turning into a pervers scene.

Yes.

* * *

"Crunchy Cat" ... for some reason, this name evokes in me the "Milky Way" candy bar, completely, in the design of the wrapper and the taste of the chocolate.

 

[Cottontop3000]

Why would you be evil (or something)? If you feel guilty for something, then you're good. I have always wanted the best for everyone, yet, like everyone, I've done some bad things. How is it possible for people to do evil if they don't want to do evil? and later, they regret it.

I really don't think I'm evil, Yorda. It's just my irrational side coming out. My rebellious side, saying that I want to be evil because I hurt so much at times and thus I want to hurt someone back. Or everyone. I know I can't do this anymore, because it's not the real, deep-down me, which I haven't been able to see again until I came to this forum.

Thank you all so much, and Yorda, I agree with you. I am still in doubt, though, about whether I need God. I still worry that I do need Him, even though almost every fiber of my being says that He doesn't exist. I think that this is a question that all of us may or may not have to answer, ultimately, on our own.

 

[Yorda]

I don't understand how I could ever need "God". It must be because I don't understand what it is.