True Lies

John99 said:
Why dont you actually read the posts?

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1980516&postcount=12

Last time i checked anyone able to type on a keyboard is human. We lie when we are children, we lie as adults.

The thing is that when you get caught in a lie you should admit it. And YES, i believe that the OP is a story teller.
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I am sorry I missed your post. However I find it offensive that you consider my mere presence means this thread is self-righteous bullshit. I assumed from your description of the thread you had not participated. Since your participation would be a part of that BS.

I asked sincere questions about specific situations, since it seemed like some people thought one should never lie. And now I am trying to get a bead on SAM's moral position in relation to lying. (please do not use this a jumping off point to say yet another thing about your opinion of SAM. I really do understand what you think there.)

Now you have responded to me in a respectful manner, which seems rather strange given your opinion of what my mere presence does to a thread. I hope you can keep that up. I will try to respond in kind.
 
Simon Anders said:
I would hope there are other criteria. The road to hell is paved with selfless intentions - or 'performing the will of the people', as one example in many where people are 'doing good' 'for others' that can lead to problems.

For example I would hope that lying was seen as an exception to communication in general where one strives for honesty - a very tricky category, despite what all the advocates here seem to think - but can, when it is clear that being honest will do harm, lie.

Otherwise our extreme examples are misleading. IOW if one can decide that Sadaam Hussein is a bad leader and it would be better for the world in general to put the US in control of the oil in Iraq it is righteous to lie about weopons of mass destruction and some of the above also. Which I think is precisely what some of the neocons tell themselves. Some, of course, stand to gain personally from said lie. But others are 'for the policy' and will not stand to gain personally. I think this kind of 'creating the good' lying
as opposed to the kinds of being cornered lying that you and I presented in our examples
is very problematic.
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Of course. I agree with you. But personal gain covers a very large common ground, like the scenario of (Q) and the serial killer or one raven and his kidnapped girlfriend. That is a situation in which no one disagrees they should be permitted to lie, even when they consider themselves as bastions of honesty. The problem of such discussions with atheists is that they have no definition of what is good, or bad. Now as far as I know, if by telling a truth you will hurt someone in ways that cannot be reversed, then telling a lie under those conditions is acceptable. Would I tell a five year old kid who asks me what happens to her mother after she dies, that she will be eaten by microrganisms and be reduced to a skeleton? I don't think so.
 
S.A.M. said:
Would I tell a five year old kid who asks me what happens to her mother after she dies, that she will be eaten by microrganisms and be reduced to a skeleton? I don't think so.
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And there you go!

I would be honest with that five year old.
This is absolutely nothing like the situation of the corrupt secret police coming to search for my mother so they could kill her.
This is not to save anyone's life.
This is not to topple a corrupt leader.
This is the situation of lying about something to sugar-coat it, make the situation easier to deal with or make it easier for you to answer.
Lying to spare someone's feelings or your own discomfort.
This, in my opinion, is wrong.
This is a perfect situation in which you are justifying a lie for what you consider "the greater good".
If my mother is on her death bed and asks me if she is going to die, I will tell her she is.
I will be as gentle as I could, but I would most certainly not lie to her.

This is exactly what I was referring to when I was talking about using such a wide open statement to justify what it is you wish to lie about.
 
Yes we differ, I try never to hurt anyone who is an innocent to justfiy a personal ideology.
 
S.A.M. said:
Yes we differ, I try never to hurt anyone who is an innocent to justfiy a personal ideology.
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And I think lies will always (excluding the ridiculous, extraordinary circumstances above, if I really have to say that) hurt more than help.

I don't see the benefit of lying to assuage someone's feelings.
If anything you are setting them up for disappointment and failure later.
 
S.A.M. said:
Would I tell a five year old kid who asks me what happens to her mother after she dies, that she will be eaten by microrganisms and be reduced to a skeleton? I don't think so.
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But that's not what you believe to be the truth.

As for the rest

not hurting an innocent by telling the truth

I am more concerned about a proactive campaign of lies with the goal of some good, than specific instances of not being careful or not taking care of another.

It seemed like Q's sense is you are using the doorway opening to be proactive with mistruths. My sense is more that you are likely to use omission defensively and perhaps at times proactively as a strategy in a thread.

Given however that you are a kind of minority in this forum AND there is a historical imperialist relation between 'the West' and what is 'not the West' and that this is an issue of concern for you, and not simply around issues of personal gain, does this open the door to proactive lying in relation to the other participants here and to what degree?
 
oneraven:

perhaps you are right, but I could not be the one to destroy their hopes. I have seen people build on their hopes and gain strength from it. I have yet to see anyone whose hopes were destroyed, become anything but disenchanted or disillusioned.

Given however that you are a kind of minority in this forum AND there is a historical imperialist relation between 'the West' and what is 'not the West' and that this is an issue of concern for you, and not simply around issues of personal gain, does this open the door to proactive lying in relation to the other participants here and to what degree?
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Strangely enough, in all these cases, my job here has been to sift through the proactive lying on the other side and present evidence for my statements.
 
S.A.M. said:
The problem of such discussions with atheists is that they have no definition of what is good, or bad.
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That is a lie. You've read and have responded yourself to many atheists here who have provided those definitions to you.

Stop lying. :mad:
 
John99 said:
What difference does that make?
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Well, the legal systems in some countries are much more guilty until proven innocent than say the USA and to some degree the morality of the people is similar. If someone says you are a _________, well, it is considered probable that you are and YOU must prove your innocence.

I grew up in countries and subcultures therein that had a different morality. When someone accuses someone of something, the onus is on the accuser to back this up, both legally and in everyday morality.

My guess was you were just saying whatever you felt you needed to, but maybe you actually believe accusations need no back up.
 
S.A.M. said:
oneraven:

perhaps you are right, but I could not be the one to destroy their hopes. I have seen people build on their hopes and gain strength from it. I have yet to see anyone whose hopes were destroyed, become anything but disenchanted or disillusioned.
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Exactly!
This is precicely why it is wrong to build people up with false hopes to begin with.
Help people build strength on something much more solid and stable than lies and sugar-coated happiness.
I will be damned if I will take any part in building my child's hopes and ideals on a foundation of falsehoods and manipulative lies.
Disillusioned implies someone who has seen past the lies - it's an extraordinarily difficult thing to deal with when you find that your foundations of your life and beliefs were made of lies.
Why would you want to set someone up for that?
It's seems cruel to me.

If you can deal with it and come out of it, you come out a much stronger person for it.
Why? Because you now have a solid foundation of truth (notice I didn't say reality, I said truth).
Following disillusionment, someone can gain strength in reality and trust in those who will be truthful with them.
Why should they trust the people who lied to them in the first place?

Tell me... How does it make you feel when you see so-called American "patriots" spout lies about foreign occupations, illegal wars and mistreatment of POW's?
Many of them believe what they say, because that's what they were taught as truth.
It's what I was taught as truth and let me tell you, that disillusionment was painful, but I am damned grateful for it.
 
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