True Lies

John99 said:
This whole thread is nothing but self righteous bull shit. Simon Anders prsence here confirms it further.
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Why not contribute some information, an argument or something that makes the thread more how you would like it to be?

Do you think lying in the situations I described is immoral?
 
If you did honestly think I was falsely generalizing with some hidden intention (which is the impression I get from your comment above) do you think that justifies building a strawman?
Is this another example of justified falsehoods for the greater good?
 
What strawman? I mentioned diplomacy and you indicated diplomacy is the manipulation of the masses. Is that how you define diplomacy? Or conciliation?
 
Sam,

You know what's most frustrationg about the way you "debate" and discuss?
You remind me of my ex-girlfriend - she used to do the exact same thing (the main reason she's my ex:)).
You start with a premise.
When someone attempts to refute that, you slightly shift the discussion to a point that supports what you were trying to say (a very valid Platonic method, if your intention was to bring it back around and support your original assertion).
Someone responds to that.
You pick one point out of what they said and slightly shift again.
Someone responds to that.
You pick one point out of what they said and slightly shift again...
Eventually, you get to a point that you can make and, while it may be a valid point, it has nothing to do with your original assertion and does not support it.
Then you smugly claim victory and the moral higher ground.
Still, for some reason, I can't help but like you - that was my problem with my ex, too. :)
 
Simon Anders said:
At no point have I gotten the impression, nor can I see it in this thread that SAM is saying lying is righteous per se.
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Yes, she did. She claimed Muslim scholars have declared lying is righteous.

Only that, for example in the scenario with the person questioned about their being Jewish, lying can be moral. You admired the Jehovah's Witnesses for being honest about their beliefs despite facing death for that honesty. Could you, however, consider a non-Jewish German who said 'I do know the whereabouts of any Jews,' to a Nazi interrogator while knowing that he is hiding jews in his basement
someone who is being moral while lying?
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It's easy to come up with all kinds of paradox scenarios in which telling the truth can get you or someone else killed. That's why we're so intelligent as humans, we have the ability to come up with paradoxes to support our arguments, especially if arguments that don't rely on a paradox, fail.
 
S.A.M. said:
you indicated diplomacy is the manipulation of the masses
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I did not say that diplomacy was manipulation.
I said nothiong of the sort.

Read it again.
We were talking about justified lies for the "greater good".
YOU said "Conciliation of people? Everyone lies for that. Its called diplomacy."

I disagreed and said that lying for conciliation of people was nothing more than lying and propaganda - as opposed to diplomacy, which was your contention.
YOUR words stated that lying for the cause of conciliating people was diplomacy.

Now you state that I said diplomacy is manipulation?
That's not going to fly.

I can't help but assume this was not a mistake, rather a deliberate twisting of my words and intentions

It's all there.
Read it again.
 
Can you give me an example of lying for conciliation of people that was lying and propaganda rather than diplomacy?
 
(Q) said:
Yes, she did. She claimed Muslim scholars have declared lying is righteous.
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Could you give me the post #.

It's easy to come up with all kinds of paradox scenarios in which telling the truth can get you or someone else killed. That's why we're so intelligent as humans, we have the ability to come up with paradoxes to support our arguments, especially if arguments that don't rely on a paradox, fail.
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SAM did use an oxymoron in the title of the thread, but those situations are not paradoxes. It is standard in discussions of ethics to put pressure on ethical rules by considering situations including extreme ones where it seems immoral to maintain that rule, or, at the very least not immoral to break it.

But perhaps you think SAM is saying 'the door is open to lying and therefore any lie I can convince myself is somehow righteous'.

Is that what you are saying SAM?

How can one tell, SAM, when one is abusing the concept of righteousness when one tells untruths?
 
Simon said:
How can one tell, SAM, when one is abusing the concept of righteousness when one tells untruths?
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The simplest criteria is that you cannot use if for any personal gain.
 
S.A.M. said:
The simplest criteria is that you cannot use if for any personal gain.
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So, "gaining" one's life back, like the example you used, doesn't count?

Any other "gains" from your repertoire of paradoxes don't count either?

Would one lie for personal loss?
 
(Q) said:
Hey One Raven, are you getting dizzy spinning round and round?
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Getting dizzy?

This is ridiculous.
Sam,
Have you no comment about the manipulation and lies I pointed out in my last post? Was thet righteous and justified?

Or do you plan on simply ignoring that, as you seem to ignore most of what people say, and slightly shift again?
 
one_raven said:
Getting dizzy?

This is ridiculous.
Sam,
Have you no comment about the manipulation and lies I pointed out in my last post? Was thet righteous and justified?

Or do you plan on simply ignoring that, as you seem to ignore most of what people say, and slightly shift again?
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Did I miss it? I don't see an example of conciliation that is manipulation and lies rather than diplomacy? Are you talking about your girlfriend? :confused:
 
S.A.M. said:
Did I miss it? I don't see an example of conciliation that is manipulation and lies rather than diplomacy? Are you talking about your girlfriend? :confused:
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I was referring to YOUR lies and manipulation.
Post #68.
 
Simon Anders said:
Why not contribute some information, an argument or something that makes the thread more how you would like it to be?

Do you think lying in the situations I described is immoral?
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Why dont you actually read the posts?

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1980516&postcount=12

Last time i checked anyone able to type on a keyboard is human. We lie when we are children, we lie as adults.

The thing is that when you get caught in a lie you should admit it. And YES, i believe that the OP is a story teller.
 
one_raven said:
I was referring to YOUR lies and manipulation.
Post #68.
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Since I cannot think of a conciliation which is manipulation and propaganda rather than diplomacy, I do not see the manipulation. Which is why I asked you for an example.
 
S.A.M. said:
The simplest criteria is that you cannot use if for any personal gain.
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I would hope there are other criteria. The road to hell is paved with selfless intentions - or 'performing the will of the people', as one example in many where people are 'doing good' 'for others' that can lead to problems.

For example I would hope that lying was seen as an exception to communication in general where one strives for honesty - a very tricky category, despite what all the advocates here seem to think - but can, when it is clear that being honest will do harm, lie.

Otherwise our extreme examples are misleading. IOW if one can decide that Sadaam Hussein is a bad leader and it would be better for the world in general to put the US in control of the oil in Iraq it is righteous to lie about weopons of mass destruction and some of the above also. Which I think is precisely what some of the neocons tell themselves. Some, of course, stand to gain personally from said lie. But others are 'for the policy' and will not stand to gain personally. I think this kind of 'creating the good' lying
as opposed to the kinds of being cornered lying that you and I presented in our examples
is very problematic.
 
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