True Lies
- Thread starter S.A.M.
- Start date
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
You know....I wanted to leave the door open because I post pretty fast here and maybe I shit on you somehow, but you just want to insult me and make accusations and now just waste my time. So I don't catch a glimpes of one of your contentless posts insulting or accusing me, I am putting you on ignore. And since you find me thread-destructive, I suggest you do the same
to protect yourself.
I find that only works for philosophers. In real life, disillusionment is crippling.
I speak from experience, not half-assed armchair philosophy.
In real life disillusionment can be quite difficult, but still is a path to freedom.
As I said, once I got past that particular foundation of lies, I was extraordinarily grateful for my disillusionment.
By the way, if you think disillusionment is crippling, wouldn't your lies told to the child about his mother's death be adding to his crippling, therefore harming someone?
How many times have you said that?
I asked you a simple question, what country and culture are you from. Why would that make you put me on ignore? Perhaps i do not consider calling someone a liar an insult. I expect human transgressions and accept them.
Now that you have me on ignore we will never know.
The book "Lying: Moral Choice in Public and Private Life" goes into this in fair detail - from a secular humanist (and I believe atheist) perspective, unfortunately, but if you pretend it is otherwise motivated you may find it useful. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sissela_BokSAM said:
One of the useful concepts in the book is that of the liar's perspective - which is almost always to support good or bring about conciliation among people, support good or say what is good.
Despite such fine motives, lies universally tend to do more harm than good. The cost to public, social, and personal community dealings is particularly heavy. It can be seen as a classic case of a Tragedy of the Commons, where the public trust is that commons and the individual liars do not pay the marginal cost of their lies.
Last edited:
too bad. it was the salad rather than the individual words that perplexed
no
there is comprehension after a series of assumptions with regards to your intent. i know what you meant or should have said
there is no paradox
the propositions are unrealistic
i could tell you why but wont
elaborate if so inclined
just one good example outta do the trick
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
To me the issue can be about some people thinking honesty is 'the sharing of truthful information'.
Reducing communication down to words that can be evaluated in double blind tests or the like.
I do think truth telling has high value and that disillusionment is not negative per se and often is positive.
timing, intent, compassion, wisdom, form of the communication
are all factors that matter when one is saying something that may disillusion someone.
Those who simply tell the truth often confuse this with honesty, which includes deep self awareness -what am I really doing right now - deep awareness of the other - what may this be for them - and broad self expression as opposed to an L.E.D. display of facts which, if it upsets their listeners, is their listeners problem or 'opportunity'.
You assume I will lie of course. But in my experience with children, telling them [for example] that their pet dog was brutally murdered by a psychopath is not really a useful sort of honesty.
So if you tell a lie to save someone's life, for example, this universally tends to do more harm than good? Diplomacy is a pointless exercise? Being brutally honest more useful?
excellent example
with emotional retards, little white lies tends to be the norm
here, little white lies are the exception not the norm
how often do you imagine the circumstances to occur?
in general, society advances for the better with truth telling
diplomacy is problem solving thru negotiation rather than war. lying is not implicit and is counterproductive in that scenario. you are dealing with seasoned politicos and not children. folks that can smell bullshit a mile away
some?
i dont get it
a definition of honesty is 'the sharing of truthful information'
?
as opposed to gesticulating wildly like an ape?
agreed
learn from one's goddamn mistakes
there is a time and place ..........
again, truth telling is honesty
yes to the rest
Interesting statement. Generally, I'm in favor of complete honesty (except when dealing with women, then you have to lie). But clearly there are times that truth is not the most important thing.
For example, modern historians are fond of pointing out that the story about George Washington cutting down the cherry tree is not true (or maybe there's no proof of it? I'm not sure.)
Whether it's true or not, what's wrong with telling an inspiring story that helps illustrate the importance of (ironically) honesty?
People need their heros, especially children. Is it really important to point out every personal foible and misdeed of our heros?
An example I think that's more in keeping with the intent of the quote in the OP would be the recent question of whether or not Turkey had commited genocide against the Armanians a hundred years ago.
In truth, it seems that they did. But what possible good could be served by congress passing a resolution condemning Turkey for having done that 100 years later? Especially when we're in a war and need Turkey as an ally. The greater good is served by, pretty much, brushing that ancient history aside.
typical
short term interests and hypocrisy favored over telling it like it is
honesty and consistency trashed and dispensed in order to continue murdering the m.e street
fuck the anglo barbarians
still looting and plundering after all these years
old habits do die hard
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
So if you sat down with someone and they began simply relaying facts about themselves in a monotone - facts that you could later verify - you would take that as honesty. I would not. Honesty to me must include an honest expression of who you are in the moment. An honest person need to be aware of themselves not just their opinions and a bunch of facts. They then need to express these things. Also, on occasion being honest about their distrust of other people and remaining silent. Or being honest with themselves and not being quite sure what to say or when or to whom. concerns about the appropriateness of relaying the information now or at all, and so on are honest also and may not lead to 'telling the truth' on automatic pilot. They have to know their own feelings and these feelings are a part of their honest expression of themselves.
I am basing this on certain people I have known who prided themselves on their 'honesty', when in fact they were only revealing factual information - often about their judgements of other people, etc, and a small portion of their feelings. This is the kind of 'honesty' that, I would guess some computers could manage to pass a Turing test using, but I do not think a computer can have an honest relationship yet. This 'honesty' these people had was a functional part of a big lie about who they were, how they felt and who you were, what the relationship was and so on. Telling the truth can be evasive, manipulative, a device for distraction, a way of hiding and so on.
Think of how 'I was just being honest' can and sometimes has sounded.
Imagine how some people have used the truth when it is found out that they were cheating or did some other bad thing in a romantic relationship. They say true things - but in reality some of these are lies to make the other person focus on themselves and not on what the 'honest' person has done.
You're right. That is the only possibility. I don't know what I was thinking about.
An attitude that will disillusion and passes a limited definition of honesty but is perhaps not the best definition for honesty around a five year old - as an extreme case to point out the problem.
Yes, timing is an element.
If all you are is a carrier of information, then truth telling is being honest and we do not need one of the terms.
Last edited:
ah
of course
the factoid is accompanied by a qualifier...... but/however/and/whatnot
the truthteller elaborates and emotes
i like it
a rather sophisticated honesty
it appears other, perhaps distinctive qualities are bundled into your def of honesty. compassion? empathy? integrity?
i must mull further
thank you, mr anders
of course
the factoid is accompanied by a qualifier...... but/however/and/whatnot
the truthteller elaborates and emotes
i like it
a rather sophisticated honesty
it appears other, perhaps distinctive qualities are bundled into your def of honesty. compassion? empathy? integrity?
i must mull further
thank you, mr anders